Watch for dead sea lion bodies

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Surely, over-zealous environmentalists are not making babies at all. ... My parents, nevertheless, had four children but only two grandchildren and only two great-grandchildren. ... So goes the European stock, but Europeans are hardly trying to preserve their race. ... The Pierces are just barely hanging in there. Over-population is not our fault!
 
Last edited:
Back in the day the commercial fisherman controlled the seal and sea lion population. Worked just fine.

Yes and the whale population was larger. These days the food chain is disrupted. In our oceans a common sight was herring balls, sought after by the salmon as well as the offshore buyers with suitcases of cash.
The Fraser river salmon runs were large. Then mount St Helens blew and the following year they stopped returning via Juan de Fuca, instead via over the top of Van Isle. Then we have the farm salmon stocks killing the native salmon.

So a cull of a predator like sea lions which other than potlatch stew and whale food, have no useful purpose, so go to it, cull them.
 
California sea lion is the common name for zalophus californianus. It doesn't mean the animals come from California. Their range is from SE Ak to central Mx including the Gulf of California. To say they came from California because that is part of their common name makes as much sense as saying they are related to lions.


Wow, didn't know that. And I'm kinda bummed about it really..Because we Oregonians love to blame Californians for everything wrong in the West. :rolleyes:
 
...my parents, nevertheless, had four children but only two grandchildren and only two great-grandchildren. ... So goes the european stock, but europeans are hardly trying to preserve their race. ... The pierces are just barely hanging in there. Over-population is not our fault!

q.e.d.
 
Last edited:
Nature has always and will always find a way. The big question while talking about overpopulation is who will control it. What person will be voted in? Who will be allowed to reproduce? Who makes the rules? How can anyone know how many people this planet can sustain? It reminds me of Mow. It sounds like a power grab. It sounds communist. It sounds evil..... But what do I know. I'm just an idiot that thinks a family is the one of the greatest gifts from god and should not be controled by any government. That being said. Save the seals! Save the fish! People worried about Overpopulation could start by killing themselves and not controling, taxing the rest of us as they virtue signal about what others should do to save a planet we know little about. This is all only an opinion
 
This is great! Keep it up guys! I’m subscribing for the ride. :popcorn: Now if I could just find more beer in the fridge :dance:
 
Volunteer needed to fit condoms on horny sea lions. Problem solved.
Can`t wait for RTF`s gif.
 
Sigh...

Yes, I am responsible for it all.

There! Now you will 'Feel' better Murray, confession is so good for the soul!.

Now can we discuss individual communities investing in small effective nucular power generation units? :hide::D
 
Back in the day the commercial fisherman controlled the seal and sea lion population. Worked just fine.

Yep, provided shotgun ammo by the fish and game. The same issue with those damn cute little 'sea otters' and lets add the huge increase of whales, all consuming tons and tons of fish and shell fish.

Bounty on otters, ammo for the sea lions, and let the Eskimos and Japanese have whales on demand!:thumb::dance:
 
WOW all these PHDs committing on the condition of the Columbia River salmon stock. Yet most here have never been to the Columbia.

The current condition of the the salmon stock in the Columbia River is due to the mis-management of the resource by Washington, Oregon and the Feds (native folks).

Environmental Waco terrorists have also made it hard to properly management the system as they want all hatcheries closed and dams removed. The tribes are refusing to clip fins on salmon as they want their fish identified as "wild" salmon when in fact they are hatchery fish. One only has to go above the Bonneville Dam to see all the nets in the water with fish rotting as the nets are not checked every day.

Again mis-management of the resource.

For the record, I do not have a PHD........
 
California sea lion is the common name for zalophus californianus. It doesn't mean the animals come from California. Their range is from SE Ak to central Mx including the Gulf of California. To say they came from California because that is part of their common name makes as much sense as saying they are related to lions.

Yes, but some did. 25+ years ago, in an effort to limit the fishkill at the Ballard Locks, sea lions (remember Herschel?) were trapped in large steel cages, tagged, and relocated to Northern California (Bay area maybe). Some of them returned to the Locks in two weeks time.

While awaiting transport to sunny CA, the cages were tied off to mooring bouys outside Shilshole Bay Marina. Woe be to sailors in our Wed nite beercan races who passed close downwind. It was an epic olfactory experience.
 
OK, my memory has faded and not everything I just posted is correct. It took a month to return from the Channel Islands and two weeks to return from the WA coast.

Herschel
 
Meanwhile, as you guys are denying humans (particularly of the immigrant European type) are mainly responsible for falling salmon stocks, an even bigger problem looms:

https://www.noaa.gov/education/resource-collections/ocean-coasts/ocean-acidification

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...-from-ocean-acidification-new-research-shows/

Uh Murray, I won't suggest you're trolling off subject.

You are aware that earth's atmospheric levels of CO2 during the past few thousand years are at a 100 million year low? Even if man weren't adding CO2 to the air there is only one way for CO2 and air temps to go, up. Stable they have never been.

Now back to the Columbia River issues as raised by ASD.
 
If everyone is convinced that the problem is someone else's fault, things will just get worse. If everyone takes responsibility for their own actions, does what they can, and just makes incremental changes in their consumption habits things will either get better; or at least get worse more slowly.

We can't use "we don't fully understand the problem", or "we are afraid of un-intended consequences" as excuses to do nothing. We understand enough to know that we are having a negative effect on the planet by stressing certain links in the food chain and creating too much CO2.
 
Yes, I believe salmon can be " transplanted to different rivers and they migrate "past" areas of other salmon...but Columbia river salmon I doubt are remotely connected with or travel with Alaska salmon....



If anything, the Columbia River Salmon follow the Japanese Current past Alaska and BC to Washington...but again I don't think they travel that uniformly.


This is untrue. Historically the SEAK Troll fishery intercepted large numbers of Columbia River Chinook as well as Canadian stocks.

See page 70, this document specifically for impacts on Columbia River Chinook.

https://www.psc.org/download/35/chinook-technical-committee/11955/tcchinook-19-2-v1.pdf

In addition, the SEAK seine and gillnet fisheries intercepted Skeen and Fraser River sockeye in large numbers.

Jim
Retired salmon fisheries biologist.
 
Sea lions have lost their natural fear of predation, so killing a few in plain sight of other sea lions restores their aversion to being around humans. Likewise bears which have lost their fear of humans are very dangerous...

The coastal swimming beaches in Southern California have been taken over by sea lions, and fear of being attacked has driven human use of those beaches away. When I was in the Navy in 1973 it wasn't the case, the sea lions stayed out of the swimming breakwaters.

The dams have stopped the salmon where the sea lions can congregate and eat too many of them. Way complex issue, no answers here...
 
This is an extremely complex challenge. But one simple law is you can't harvest the prey without harvesting the predators, if you expect to have any prey left. Yes. nature does usually balances things but at extreme swings. But again, we know that thousands of species became extinct even before humans reared their ugly heads.

Personally, I think the major problem the world has is too many people. This too will correct itself as humans are part of nature not separate from it. Covid 10 is just one of the future results of too many people.
 
This is untrue. Historically the SEAK Troll fishery intercepted large numbers of Columbia River Chinook as well as Canadian stocks.

See page 70, this document specifically for impacts on Columbia River Chinook.

https://www.psc.org/download/35/chinook-technical-committee/11955/tcchinook-19-2-v1.pdf

In addition, the SEAK seine and gillnet fisheries intercepted Skeen and Fraser River sockeye in large numbers.

Jim
Retired salmon fisheries biologist.
Thank you, I stand corrected....

Spent all my time in Alaska a long ways from SEAK....kinds slips my mind it's not really part of Canada.... :D
 
Nobody is certain the exact sustainable population on earth. Some experts say only 1 billion, others say 5 billion. We are at 7.6 billion, so the only agreement is that we are over the sustainable amount. It isn't obvious to all because overpopulation "works" in the short term. More consumers. More taxpayers. Higher property values. And then . . .

China's one child policy can be seen as a success or a failure. It was actually a "one birth" policy. If a woman had triplets, they didn't put two back. It only reduced the Chinese population increase by 400 million. Sort of a drop in the bucket and could be seen as a failure based on the world population. On the other hand, it has had a long term effect on Chinese women (and to a lesser extent, men). Women found that they could control their own fertility. It turns out that pooping out a baby a year for 14 years wasn't how many women wanted to live their lives. Who would have guessed? (Hint: not the men.) The effect of the policy continues. The same has been the case with educating women in other societies. Once they learn a little, the birth rate drops.

So it turns out the solution isn't limited to war, plague, euthanasia, or some other disaster by those who claim that a sustainable population is a commie plot. The solution is education. Learning that there is more to life than family. Ooops, forget I said that. Instead, let's kill sea lions as we whistle past the graveyard.
 
I am not a fan of bastardizing science with politics.

There seems to be little question that Pacific Salmon populations are less than historical and less than we would like them to be. I know nothing about this but common sense leads to the following thoughts/questions.

Both humans and Ca sea lions are likely threats to the salmon population. There are around a quarter million Ca sea lions that like to eat salmon and around 7.5 billion humans that feel the same. Hmmm..

I live near the Columbia and drive by it fairly often. I find it odd that people focus on dams with fish ladders and ignore the gauntlet of nets.
We often focus on dams as the reason the salmon populations are failing but do not reconcile that argument with the fact that non river using species of fish like pollack, tuna, rockfish, and halibut populations have also been decimated.

Could it be that the salmon and other species are gone because we ate them and continue to eat them? You think? That worked only when there were far fewer of us and when we had more moderate consumptive behavior.

The human population could never have satisfied its consumptive patterns with any wild population of anything. Not meat, not blueberries, not eggs. In order to feed ourselves we have always needed the increased intensification of farming. I suspect this is also true of fish, especially salmon given their native reproductive physiology.

We will pick other, more convenient, solutions first and will always prefer solutions that affect others and not ourselves, but I suspect the salmon and related species in that wild food chain will not be back to the level that folks seem to long for until we quit eating them......
 
So it turns out the solution isn't limited to war, plague, euthanasia, or some other disaster by those who claim that a sustainable population is a commie plot. The solution is education. Learning that there is more to life than family. Ooops, forget I said that. Instead, let's kill sea lions as we whistle past the graveyard.

Unfortunately, education isn't effective enough. Want proof? Look at cigarette smoking, driving drunk, doing drugs and a host of other things. How many decades have we been fighting those battles? Until you convince welfare recipients that their compensation for giving birth won't increase with each child, education won't be successful.

Ted
 
I live near the Columbia and drive by it fairly often. I find it odd that people focus on dams with fish ladders and ignore the gauntlet of nets.


The gauntlet of nets are not ignored. The harvest rates in these fisheries are well understood. I referenced a peer reviewed publication above of fishery modelling by Pacific Salmon Commission’s Chinook Technical Committee.

For more on this read this seminal paper by an “also ran” fisheries biologist, since retired:

https://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/f94-153

And also, a more recent paper using methods of Bayesian Probability theory:

https://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/cjfas-2018-0213

Jim
 
bodies

Could be worse, found a guy who just jumped off the bridge between NYC &Stain island thought he was a dumby till we saw hair on his ass .good old New YORK harbor !!
 
Unfortunately, education isn't effective enough. Want proof? Look at cigarette smoking, driving drunk, doing drugs and a host of other things. How many decades have we been fighting those battles? Until you convince welfare recipients that their compensation for giving birth won't increase with each child, education won't be successful.

Ted

Sorry Ted, - Your proof doesn't appear to be completely true.
Education does help solve social problems. There are plenty of studies to back this up. Cigarette smoking & drunk driving have decreased immensely in countries which have had substantial education programs to deal with these issues. Drug education has often failed for various reasons. That issue is not so straight forward.
 
Sorry Ted, - Your proof doesn't appear to be completely true.
Education does help solve social problems. There are plenty of studies to back this up. Cigarette smoking & drunk driving have decreased immensely in countries which have had substantial education programs to deal with these issues. Drug education has often failed for various reasons. That issue is not so straight forward.

Was it education or tax increases on cigarettes? About half of the price of cigarettes in the USA is tax now. No amount of education worked in the USA until drunk driving laws changed. In many USA states a DWI will cost you $10,000 in fines, court fees, lawyer fees, and the there's the insurance premium increases for years.

Ted
 
Was it education or tax increases on cigarettes? About half of the price of cigarettes in the USA is tax now. No amount of education worked in the USA until drunk driving laws changed. In many USA states a DWI will cost you $10,000 in fines, court fees, lawyer fees, and the there's the insurance premium increases for years.

Ted
^^^^:thumb: That is the kind of education that works? Not really, but good revenue for gov. Here we went from 08 to 05 which made a huge difference along with the hefty fines. Restaurants and pubs noticed it first.
 
The gauntlet of nets are not ignored. The harvest rates in these fisheries are well understood. I referenced a peer reviewed publication above of fishery modelling by Pacific Salmon Commission’s Chinook Technical Committee.

For more on this read this seminal paper by an “also ran” fisheries biologist, since retired:

https://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/f94-153

And also, a more recent paper using methods of Bayesian Probability theory:

https://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/cjfas-2018-0213

Jim

Jim,
That is the case I was making I think.
I have a very high level of respect for Fish and Wildlife biologists to understand and manage these populations. But, my understanding is that that is exactly what they do, manage the populations to target levels using harvest rates by tribal, commercial and recreational participants, in that order of priority roughly.
My point is, the current levels of salmon populations are what they are precisely because we harvest them to this level for eating. Not saying that is right or wrong, just that that it is the reason for current populations being what they are. If more adults make it up the river and more frye make it down, then we harvest more accordingly to some established target level.

I am certainly not a subject matter expert like you are. Do I misunderstand this?
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom