Hurricane concerns

How much of a concern are hurricanes to east coast boaters? We live in the mountains of NH so they aren't currently on our radar.

As we think about our plans though we will likely be cruising from New England to the Bahamas from late sept to November. Should a hurricane hit, we won't have a home marina to run for to secure our boat.

My attitude is "that's why we have insurance." We will do what we can while prioritizing life safety. Possessions can be replaced. It seems like one always has a least a few days notice of hurricanes so its easy to get the people (but maybe not the boat) out of harms way.

My wife doesn't so much agree with that sentiment. This is something that is very concerning to her.

Mind you she prefers the idea of not taking a boat north each year. She'd rather see it left somewhere in Georgia or Florida. This also works into her "6 months a year in a house - 6 months a year on a boat" strategy. Personally I'd rather be permanently on a boat but I've already agree to keep a dirt house.

Thoughts?

First off, as you said, hurricanes do not just pop up out of nowhere. You pretty much always have enough time to evacuate, if you want to.

Also, there are some areas that get hit a lot, and some that get hit very rarely. Here in the Tampa area, we hardly ever get hit. North from here up to the Big Bend area of Florida is pretty much the same. Once you get to the panhandle, the odds go up.

On the east coast the most vulnerable area is south of Cape Canaveral. North of there the odds go down until they are the lowest around Jacksonville. Get north of about Brunswick GA and they start going up again.

Look at a map and all of this makes sense. The Cape tends to kind of kick hurricanes out further to sea. They follow the Gulf Stream north, which is pretty far out east of Jax. But then the coastline bulges out again and becomes more vulnerable.

All that said, hurricanes happen. The odds are lower here in Tampa than they are in Miami, but we still get hit now and then, so you need to have a plan. If you are counting on insurance, you need to be certain that your policy will cover you for a named storm, and understand any conditions that it requires in that case.

If you were more specific about what it is that concerns your wife, the answers you get would probably be more specific. Good luck, in any case.

And the later you wait, ie late Sep or Oct, the chances of a hurricane go down greatly.

For info.

GraniteStater said:

How much of a concern are hurricanes to east coast boaters? We live in the mountains of NH so they aren't currently on our radar.



As we think about our plans though we will likely be cruising from New England to the Bahamas from late sept to November. Should a hurricane hit, we won't have a home marina to run for to secure our boat.



My attitude is "that's why we have insurance." We will do what we can while prioritizing life safety. Possessions can be replaced. It seems like one always has a least a few days notice of hurricanes so its easy to get the people (but maybe not the boat) out of harms way.



My wife doesn't so much agree with that sentiment. This is something that is very concerning to her.



Mind you she prefers the idea of not taking a boat north each year. She'd rather see it left somewhere in Georgia or Florida. This also works into her "6 months a year in a house - 6 months a year on a boat" strategy. Personally I'd rather be permanently on a boat but I've already agree to keep a dirt house.



Thoughts?

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Just in case you were thinking about it, it’s not as easy as “that’s what insurance is for” when you leave your boat in a place like the Bahamas. I left my boat on Green Turtle Cay last year after we cruised there for the summer and had some mechanical problems. I could have brought the boat back to the states after our cruise (and should have obviously), but the generator wasn’t working so I couldn’t run the AC, plus we had some other commitments we wanted to get back for quickly, plus we talked to some locals who gave us a false sense of security, so we left her there. Part of my calculation was, if it all goes to hell, I have insurance!

As you probably know, Dorian ripped through the Abacos and did tremendous damage to many of the islands in that chain, including Green Turtle. This began my long, stressful slog of post boat worrying after a hurricane. First of all, I couldn’t go check on the boat for about a month because the airport was blown away and the government didn’t want any extra people on the island. So I sat and waited, not knowing the condition of my boat. I had insurance, but the adjusters couldn’t get there either so it was an agonizing wait to find out the status. Once I found out the status, then I had to figure out a way to get to the island with no working airport and somehow get my damaged boat back. Long story short, just because you have insurance, if you leave your boat in a remote location (especially in a different country) it’s much more difficult to handle things when they go sideways.

Are you considering leaving in FL/GA for the other 10 months of the year? If so, consider renting. Also, if you plan on driving/flying down buying groceries and casting off without having looked at the boat for 10 months (assuming it's still afloat), LOTS of deferred maintenance will probably be needing done before you can depart . . .

FoxtrotCharlie said:

And the later you wait, ie late Sep or Oct, the chances of a hurricane go down greatly.

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Chance go down in September? That’s the month with the MOST hurricanes, followed by August and October.

Typically LATE Sep is when things start settling down. I know Sep can be bad - lived through Camille in late 60's and Katrina recently. Look at the chart posted above - by late Oct the chance of one is pretty small. We won't be heading south til Oct.

FoxtrotCharlie said:

Typically LATE Sep is when things start settling down. I know Sep can be bad - lived through Camille in late 60's and Katrina recently. Look at the chart posted above - by late Oct the chance of one is pretty small. We won't be heading south til Oct.

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Oh Ok. Gotcha.

I lived in FL 35 years. I'd say that people who aren't sure change their mind after living through one. Insurance may replace your boat but being stuck for days, weeks or months without water and electric, food, medicine changes everyone's mind. I remember seeing Homested FL a month after Hurricane Andrew. It looked like a bomb flattened everything as far as the eye could see from I95. Ask the people of New Orleans. Just not worth the risk

There's so much great cruising to be done in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast during the hurricane season, why have a boat and miss out on that?

And look at that chart again: October is as bad or often worse than July and August. Here in hurricane country, the last few years the most damaging storms have been in the September-October time frame.

The second chart I posted was to show the Atlantic coast tend to get the later hurricanes, the gulf gets the earlier ones.

Has to do with the seasonal blocking high and the stronger troughs/ fronts later in the year.

All the charts can be found on the " track the tropics" web site.

Sandy comes to mind as a late season wide-spread disaster. Your insurance company will want a hurricane plan. If they accept what you offer, well I hope they are a good company.

I love to read all the comments on the areas of the coast that are safe and those that are not. Reality is there is no point on the East Coast or the Gulf Coast that is completely safe from hurricanes and in most areas there are also areas more protected than others.

The last few years, NC and SC have had a rough time. Back when Sandy hit, it wasn't the only storm to hit the NE. There can be two marinas within the same general location but very different in terms of hurricane preparedness.

You have two choices. Either structure your life around hurricanes completely or determine what you'd like to do and then figure out the best way to do so while considering hurricanes. You figure out a plan. It won't be perfect, but it will be one designed first to keep you safe and second to protect your boat if possible.

Cardude references the Bahamas. Well, probably not ideal to have your boat sitting in another country. However, if that country is where you like to boat, you do so. And after a lot of stress, Cardude did get his boat home. In fact, I was amazed how well it came out of the hurricane while sitting in the worst area. Cardude kept himself safe and his boat was safer than most of us figured. Had his boat been in the US he would have gotten in a car and drive to it after the storm. Similarly, people who keep their boats in the Virgin Islands, but many spend the majority of their time there.

There's a huge difference in risk in Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Much of that is that many marinas in Miami, especially in the Key Biscayne area, are open to the ocean, while no marina in Fort Lauderdale is. They are all on the ICW. Also, the vast majority floating and with piles that are well above high water. These are the simple things you look at like history of damage of specific marinas and the construction of the marinas. We live in Fort Lauderdale and keep our boats here and feel our boats are safe and we're safe in our home, but that's after a lot of research and study.

Then you have rather unique situations, like inland floods combined with storms and boats kept as far inland as New Bern, NC. hit by floods as a result of the river flowing down combined with the storm.

I think also you must consider the differences between living on a boat and having a house to run to. Neither is right or wrong but they entail very different approaches. It's not just what are you going to do with your boat, but what are you going to do with yourselves. If your boat is your only home, it's a lot tougher to decide just to leave it somewhere that you think is safe but can never be sure.

I'd start with, assuming the plan is six months on land, six months on a boat (and consider that neither has to be consecutive months as we have friends who alternate months and fly home from wherever they last were boating), then your next questions are where do you want the land home and where do you want the boat and want to do your boating. Then you see how close you can come to those favored areas and still maintain the level of safety you require. That safety isn't likely to be 100% but perhaps feel that we're save in our home as 9 out of 10 and our boat is safe at a level of 8 out of 10. Our home is in an area never hit directly by a hurricane and it's elevated slightly above the all time highest flood. Our boat is in a dock never hit by a hurricane. Yet, I wouldn't rate either a 10 out of 10. Both 9 out of 10 and we're comfortable with that.

Don't go with generalities either. Research and get specifics. There is warning and there's time but you still have to make decisions early enough to carry them out. If your plan is to leave the boat at a marina in Tampa and to drive home to New Hampshire, but you're boating in the Keys when you first hear about the storm, then you need to consider the time to get to Tampa plus still time to leave before the roads are overwhelmed and the ability to drive far enough north to actually find lodging for a night, before continuing north.

Only you can decide if you want to allow hurricanes to dictate your entire boating season. We choose not to. We don't obsess over hurricanes but wherever we're boating we do always have an emergency plan in mind.

When planning hurricane holes or marinas, states have been declaring "state of emergency" WAYYYYYY ahead of storms.



This brings on the problem of what bridges and when they will be shut down to boat traffic.


Last year had I wanted to move for Dorien....I could only have gone north (not my choice) as they closed a bridge just to the south of me...thus cutting my options in half.

Thanks everyone! This is all incredibly helpful information.

Since you asked for details, Option A would be a smaller boat (say 30 or 40 feet) left in either Florida or the Bahamas and used for a couple of weeks at a time totaling 16 to 24 weeks a year. We keep a house in NH and perhaps a condo near a marina in FL or Bahamas.

Option B - which is my preference - is to get a larger boat that we spend 8 months or more living on. We would keep only our house in NH and we'd keep the boat in Maine during the summer. We would head south in early fall (listening to all of you it sounds like later might be better!). Assuming it takes a couple of months, we'd get to the Bahamas around New Years and stay until April when we'd head north arriving in New England in June. During the winter we'd likely need to leave the boat in the Bahamas for a week here and there but that is about it.

My wife's concern is about the trip south each fall. If we are in Virginia, the Carolinas etc when a hurricane hits we would be struggling to rapidly find an unfamiliar marina where we could berth the boat while we try and take off to somewhere safe. That is the part that concerns her.

I can't see us in the Bahamas during hurricane season. If the worst happened we will always have a dirt home we can return to. It is just the notion of cruising in North Carolina (for example) when a big hurricane forms and we have to scramble to find a marina willing to take us in.

For what its worth our plans for the next couple of years are to charter as much as possible. We will try and charter as many different kinds of boats, different sized boats and different locations as possible.

But I know my wife... If I want a chance of getting her to live on a boat for 8 months a year I've got to get her thinking about it now. My wife has a client that keeps a very small condo and a Back Cove in Key Largo. They spend as little time as possible in the condo and as much time as possible on the boat. Prior to COVID they would go back and forth all the time. They love it and tell my wife all the time how wonderful it is. So she has bought into the concept. Now I just need to get her to make the jump to 8 months a year!!

Trends in insurance for larger recreational boats seem to be:

- Underwriters withdrawing from the market, particularly in higher risk hurricane zones
- hurricane zone policies becoming more stringent.
- requirements for detailed hurricane plans
- costs increasing in hurricane prone areas
- more frequent survey requirements
- harder to find insurance for older boats

It seems that one of the primary drivers for these trends are boat owners who are not able or willing to properly plan and execute a realistic hurricane plan because ‘that’s what insurance is for’.

BoatUS has a number of articles with information and recommendations. One example:

https://www.boatus.com/hurricanes/assets/pdf/hurr_prep_guide.pdf

Hurricane strikes by county for east and gulf coasts:

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/images/strikes_us.jpg

GraniteStater said:

Thanks everyone! This is all incredibly helpful information.

Since you asked for details, Option A would be a smaller boat (say 30 or 40 feet) left in either Florida or the Bahamas and used for a couple of weeks at a time totaling 16 to 24 weeks a year. We keep a house in NH and perhaps a condo near a marina in FL or Bahamas.

Option B - which is my preference - is to get a larger boat that we spend 8 months or more living on. We would keep only our house in NH and we'd keep the boat in Maine during the summer. We would head south in early fall (listening to all of you it sounds like later might be better!). Assuming it takes a couple of months, we'd get to the Bahamas around New Years and stay until April when we'd head north arriving in New England in June. During the winter we'd likely need to leave the boat in the Bahamas for a week here and there but that is about it.

My wife's concern is about the trip south each fall. If we are in Virginia, the Carolinas etc when a hurricane hits we would be struggling to rapidly find an unfamiliar marina where we could berth the boat while we try and take off to somewhere safe. That is the part that concerns her.

I can't see us in the Bahamas during hurricane season. If the worst happened we will always have a dirt home we can return to. It is just the notion of cruising in North Carolina (for example) when a big hurricane forms and we have to scramble to find a marina willing to take us in.

For what its worth our plans for the next couple of years are to charter as much as possible. We will try and charter as many different kinds of boats, different sized boats and different locations as possible.

But I know my wife... If I want a chance of getting her to live on a boat for 8 months a year I've got to get her thinking about it now. My wife has a client that keeps a very small condo and a Back Cove in Key Largo. They spend as little time as possible in the condo and as much time as possible on the boat. Prior to COVID they would go back and forth all the time. They love it and tell my wife all the time how wonderful it is. So she has bought into the concept. Now I just need to get her to make the jump to 8 months a year!!

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If you're going to be anywhere near NC when you anticipate hurricane issues, then get a hurricane plan with Jarrett Bay and if you can get to them in a reasonable time then you'll be covered for haul out.

There are a few tools you can use to preview locations relative to Hurricane affects.

The first is for storm surge you can zoom in on an area and click on the intensity of a storm by category to see the affects (SLOSH Map2).
https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/nationalsurge/

The secnd is for Hurricane strike probablities - you likely woudl not be nearly as concerned with the first map as that is for 'all hurricanes' the second one is for 'major' storms.
https://www.noaa.gov/stories/what-are-chances-hurricane-will-hit-my-home

Together they can give you a sense of where the liklihood and extent of a storm will likley be the largest problems.

According to this Wiki, three fourths of Florida hurricanes occur during Aug-Oct.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Florida_hurricanes

As others have said, you get a lot of notice and can move, but it can be a bit stressful. If I were planning a cruise, I'd definitely try to have more fun time than the dates you've mentioned.

In short, your wife is right on this one.

Peter

I travel back and forth from Chesapeake bay to SW Florida each year. Leaving in October and crossing the FL line after November 1st has proven to be fairly safe as far as hurricanes.

That said, I have 4 spots along the way to haulout or weather the storm, should that be necessary. As mentioned by others, having a plan already developed is key.

While I can appreciate why you want to spend the winter in the Bahamas, cruising the East coast in the spring and fall is wonderful. Imo, having a safe place in Florida would afford you a fall cruise down the coast, a spring cruise north, and the winter in the Bahamas. The safe place in Florida gives you a stopping point between cruises or a plan B, such as a closure of the Bahamas this year do to hurricane Dorian or the virus.

Ted

I have gone through several hurricanes in eastern NC and all with boats.

As a boat owner I do not base my ownership or use on possibilities of hurricanes. I am always aware (especially this time of year), but until I see something heading this way I keep it all in the back of my mind and not the forefront.
Even as I write this there is a "something"in the southern Caribbean forming and i am keeping my hear sort of listening to what is happening. But if anything happens it will be next week for me....so I am going about my days.

When i first moved here to NC and went through my first hurricane, I was walking in too many unknowns, but I had friends who were "old timers" and they taught me, gave comfort and taught me to trust in lines, knots and all, but ultimately it is the luck of the draw.

When Florence hit New Bern two years ago; my marina and thus my boat fared well. This was truly ONLY the luck of the draw and nothing I did or the marina owners did. The surge happened on the other side of the river because the storm came in at a higher place on the coast.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/disturbing-report-new-bern-nc-40530.html

What i want to say to the OP; enjoy your boat. have a plan, a movable plan. Do not place all your plans, cruising and determinations on an unknown and maybe not happening hurricane. I have seen summertime thunderstorms do more damage to a boat than some hurricanes.

Learn all you can. Learn from others you can trust. Plan. But ultimately it is a boat. If I lose it; my life will continue. My dreams will continue.

Live your dreams. Cruise where you desire and have the ability to cruise. You will have 5 days or so to move around, tie up, get off, drive away.

Boats are so much more than hurricanes and storms. These are few, only a few hours each year. Enjoy all those other days!

Tim

Hurricane preparations have ALWAYS been in the back of my mind for the last 30 years I have lived in the Panama City area. Marinas can be the worst places to be in hurricanes. I have never left my boats in one (10 years at City Marina here) or at my own pier (last 20 years) when dodging the numerous named storms which have either passed through here or threatened us. One year I moved my Grand Banks 42 to my hurricane hole four times, and that included a full day of setting five anchors and preparing the boat itself for high winds. My GB survived Hurricane Opal in '95 when City Marina was devastated, and my little Mainship was hidden away in a canal here in '18 when category five Hurricane Michael blew away my boatshed and lift as well as every marina of any size hereabouts and from which our area is still struggling to recover almost two years later - four friends lost 40-plus foot trawlers in marinas and at private piers. You MUST have a plan, and insurance companies may insist upon one if you are to have "named storm coverage." I do not have named storm coverage (saves many dollars in premiums), and 30 years of experience getting my boats through some of the worst of them has proven my ability to do just that, but then I am here all the time and ready and knowledgeable to do what is necessary; so I do not recommend that policy to you, just sayin'... Regarding the warning time, I think back to Opal when everybody was focussed on the OJ trial verdict while I was intently watching what was going on in the Bay of Campeche where the storm was forming up. It squirted out of there like a pea squeezed from a pod, and most people here had about 24 hours to do what they could. Storm tracking and prediction has gotten better every year, but when considering one in your general area think of yourself as a lone "civilian" in a bullring with an ornery bull running loose. He may head off in one direction, and you think, fine, I can run over to this exit, only to be cutoff as the animal in an unbelievably quick motion changes direction. For the most part, when a storm starts to head your way, running one direction or the other in the ICW in a trawler is not too practical less than 48 hours before landfall because the cone of uncertainty is just too wide. If I was cruising somewhere on the east coast in my current 10-foot air draft (thumbing my nose at all the bridges over the ICW) with my 20 MPH capability, sure, I'd be GONE, but never in my former trawler. When I was traveling in the trawler, I carried all five of my anchors and over 1200 feet of anchor rodes, and I am pretty sure I could have found a reasonably sheltered place to leave it hooked down to mother earth, just not in any marina. Coming and going like you plan to do means having to think about the worst case like securing the boat for winter storms as well as hurricanes every time you leave the boat, and that can get old. Any obvious evidence to the contrary might lead to confrontation with your insurance company when you make a claim, but I would not have any personal experience never having made a claim on any boat for any reason.

I like Option B a whole lot. I'd definitely base the boat in the USA for a number of reasons.

When we were cruising full time, our basic hurricane plan was to be up north during the season, but that was kind of by default because we loved cruising up there during those months anyway. But even in New England, we had some sort of formal or informal arrangement to have the boat pulled if necessary. Never did though.

When we settled down in NC , while still living aboard full time, we paid protection money to Jarrett Bay to have a guaranteed haul out; the marina we were in required evacuation. I was grateful to have spent the money. There are several yards in the area that provide the same service, such as Wayfarer's Cove, Bock, and True World. But JB was where we had our yard work done, so usually availed ourselves of one service or another. They also had an excellent overall system and gave favored preference to liveaboards and commercials. It was still a giant PITA to clear out the refrigerator and freezer and secure everything (and then undo it all) but the peace of mind was immeasurably wonderful. I was traveling a lot so had a captain on standby to take care of things if need be.

And yes, getting pulled was the absolute preference of the yachtsmen around here. The yard became a fantastic boat show as a result; it was interesting to see all the hull configurations.

These days insurance companies will dictate where you boat has to be when AND what actions you must take to protect your boat in what weather conditions. Violate any of their provisions and they will not provide coverage.

I am currently in Wilmington, NC at Port City Marina 22 miles up the Cape Fear River waiting for Isaias to arrive in about 3 hours. It's path demonstrates there in no guaranteed safe harbor on the Atlantic Seaboard.

Well, they are royal pain in the butt, at home as much as the boat, got to do all the prep regardless, sometimes they hit and sometimes not so bad, loss of power both places, I lost power three days, my brother two weeks on Isabel, and we live in the same town. At least hopefully the boat is secure, (I hope, I can go there after and run the genset and have some AC, always ungodly humidity here after.

hurricanes

GraniteStater said:

How much of a concern are hurricanes to east coast boaters? We live in the mountains of NH so they aren't currently on our radar.

As we think about our plans though we will likely be cruising from New England to the Bahamas from late sept to November. Should a hurricane hit, we won't have a home marina to run for to secure our boat.

My attitude is "that's why we have insurance." We will do what we can while prioritizing life safety. Possessions can be replaced. It seems like one always has a least a few days notice of hurricanes so its easy to get the people (but maybe not the boat) out of harms way.

My wife doesn't so much agree with that sentiment. This is something that is very concerning to her.

Mind you she prefers the idea of not taking a boat north each year. She'd rather see it left somewhere in Georgia or Florida. This also works into her "6 months a year in a house - 6 months a year on a boat" strategy. Personally I'd rather be permanently on a boat but I've already agree to keep a dirt house.

Thoughts?

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Honestly, If you are willing to live in NH 6 months/year and spend 6 months/year on your boat, that's a great plan. I wish I could do that. Forget about the East Coast. Buy a boat in Anacortes, Wa and spend time there or cruising in the PNW. I currently live in Florida. I've cruised in the Bahamas and up and down the East Coast and along the Gulf Coast and it's great. But I've also lived on Whidbey Island, Wa and I'll tell you, cruising the PNW is pretty awesome as well. It's gorgeous there. No hurricanes.

If you keep a boat in the south, chances are you are going to lose it at some point. I agree with you regarding insurance. That's what it's for. If you have no emotional attachment to the boat and simply use it as a "getaway" Then find the best, "funnest" place you can, berth it there and then collect the insurance when it's destroyed. My trawler is in Pensacola. I love the waters there. I will eventually lose that boat. It's inevitable, sadly.

If I were in your situation, I'd seriously look at buying a boat in the PNW. The marina in Anacortes, Wa is amazing and the little town itself will "wow" you. The cruising grounds and destinations all within a days reach are fantastic. If I were in your situation, this is exactly what I would do.

Southern California (San Diego, Oceanside, Dana Point) are also wonderful options for your situation but all are very expensive and difficult to get into. If you buy a boat there, sometimes you can negotiate keeping the slip as part of the deal. I've lived and boated there as well and it's great.

I'm a Florida resident and I love my state. But I'll tell you, if I had the ability to live somewhere for six months per year and then go to my boat for six months per year and I didn't need it close to me, my boat would be in Anacortes or Oak Harbor Wa or somewhere between Dana Point and San Diego.

Bryant said:

Honestly, If you are willing to live in NH 6 months/year and spend 6 months/year on your boat, that's a great plan. I wish I could do that. Forget about the East Coast. Buy a boat in Anacortes, Wa

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The only slight flaw with that plan is that New Hampshire and the Salish Sea both have the same "good" season (summer/fall). Presuming boating out there in summer/fall, then you'd have winter and "mud season" (spring) in New Hampshire. Guessing that's not going to be too exciting to the OP?

(But I hear you on both thinking about various options and that the PNW is nice.)

Old school logic was for boats to depart Maine November 1 and not sooner.
Lately people have pushed that up, for obvious reasons, cold being one.
Personally I like to start out around Oct 1 and even then I can take my time,(7 knot boat).
We have a heater and viable inside helm so not worried about a few chilly days.
I feel that risk mitigation is worth waiting for.
Also Sept is some of the best cruising down East so why hurry to leave?
Oh yeah, and we have no AC!

Thanks again for all the insights everyone. It really is very helpful.

I was just listening to the 3rd Passagemaker podcast about the weather. They make it sound like avoiding hurricane's is as easy as hiring a weather coach and listening to what they say. Any truth to that? It seems a little too easy.

The PNW is beautiful but we love HOT weather. I worked for a while on Whidbey Island (love it up there!) and we debated moving to Poulsbo WA instead of NH. But at the end of the day I really, really like jumping into the ocean - preferably when the temp is above 80. So - no permanent base in the PNW. Although we are talking about the possibility of shipping the boat out there for a season of exploring but who knows.

I've been sharing your responses with my wife and she is definitely getting more comfortable with the strategy of moving up and down the east coast each year. We've travelled a lot together over the years so we both love exploring new places. That is a big part of the appeal of living on a boat. I guess the big question is - just how late in the season are we willing to wait until heading south.

Thanks again all