Older say Nordhavn or newer North Pacific/Helsman

Got me thinking the other day. Looking towards the retirement boat. We'll be coastal cruising, enough along the Westcoast to keep us busy and busy for a very very long time. Heck we could spend a few years from the San Juans to everything in-between AK. Would you rather have a solid ocean going heavily built boat such as a Nordy or would you prefer something new or newer such as a North Pacific. I realize that that is trying to compare say an apple to an orange. However, the cost would be fairly equal. One thing I don't see getting much enjoyment as I age is tracking down problems, tinkering and fixing broken issues. Some of that of course comes with any ownership. What say you?

My thoughts are that a boat that is more comfortable in a larg sea state will allow you to travel on more days.

That said, being retired who cares if you are “stuck” in port in a Coastal Cruiser.

I would buy the MOST comfortable boat for you and your traveling companion as #1 priority. Whatever that boat is, that is the one to buy.

Cruising up and down a coast you will realistically probably be actually cruising one day a week at the most. The other six days you will be living on a boat.

Chose the most live aboard friendly boat you can get, and stay in port on snotty days.

If that thought process leads you to a Nordhavn, then Fantastic, buy one. If it leads you to a North Pacific, buy that, but never forget that when you are living on a boat for any significant length of time, live aboard comfort is paramount.

Bshillam,

Good question.

I agree with your first response from ksanders.

You probably won’t need an offshore boat as most of us will stay in, or head in, if the wx gets bad. Similar with the fuel capacity, everything being discussed has enough range.

We have looked closely at the Helmsman and it is a very impressive boat. After the initial commissioning details, it would hopefully be years before any major services, new canvas or soft goods, or new electronics.

I think new sounds nice, if you are OK with the depreciation and exit strategy (resale). I am fairly confident you could spend as much as that depreciation refitting an older Nordhavn.

ksanders said:

My thoughts are that a boat that is more comfortable in a larg sea state will allow you to travel on more days.

That said, being retired who cares if you are “stuck” in port in a Coastal Cruiser.

I would buy the MOST comfortable boat for you and your traveling companion as #1 priority. Whatever that boat is, that is the one to buy.

Cruising up and down a coast you will realistically probably be actually cruising one day a week at the most. The other six days you will be living on a boat.

Chose the most live aboard friendly boat you can get, and stay in port on snotty days.

If that thought process leads you to a Nordhavn, then Fantastic, buy one. If it leads you to a North Pacific, buy that, but never forget that when you are living on a boat for any significant length of time, live aboard comfort is paramount.

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Great advice indeed. I like that thought. Plan is to cruise 6 months out of the year and be land bound the other six. We're considering wintering somewhere other than the PNW.

For west coast coastal cruising you have a lot of options depending on budget. Tolly 53/57/60+. Ocean Alexander. Nordic Tug. American Tug. Selene. Seahorse. Etc. New or used. The list of options goes on and on. My recommendation is to shop brokers first. Really dig. A good broker will help refine your needs and wants and get you to the right boat. No boat is trouble free. Get good bones, invest in establishing a documented baseline and the ENJOY!

While I really like the quality of the Nordhavns, they are not as spacious as some others. If your goal isn’t crossing oceans then I would go with the roomier boat. NPs seem to well though of on the forum, so I would probably go that way.

Bshillam
On any vessel access to all systems weighs in heavily for us, especially as we and the boat age. Visit the ER, rudder, water, fuel, electrical, instruments, plumbing, windlass etc areas to assess the ease of inevitable repairs.

A full size washer and dryer is a nicety as is storage and lots of it. Ns have great dock access, a mere step off that once into your 70s becomes a must to many. There are several good choices beyond the vessels you've noted. Boat shows, dock walking and a few trips to AK on your present vessel will answer a lot of questions.

Heading to Mexico opens a different door or two in not only vessel equipment such as redundancy, mechanical skills, good AC and water makers but linguistic skills and social awareness as well.

There is no one answer. Many vessels have done what you contemplate. Owner experience and desires cannot easily be answered by strangers on the Internet. Oh, then the budget.

You will probably lose less money in a used boat in good condition with relatively fresh electronics than a new one. Stabilizers come to mind - probably $40k add on to new build but more or less expected in resale market, at least for nordhavn. By the time you're done with fabrics, dinghy, outboard, crane, HVAC, and upgrades to electronics and do-dads, I'd guess a new build has well over $100k in additional expense, little of which will be recovered at resale (and that estimate may be way low). Plus a used boat is available now.

Some thoughts depend on which Nordhavn and which NP/Helmsman you are considering. The N40 is an incredible little boat for its size. The N47 was not my favorite (I delivered several of each from Dana Point to PNW). I've never been aboard a NP/Helmsman but it looks like a nice layout (though Helmsman has an odd day-head layout that seems like wasted space, but maybe that disappears when aboard) with a decent engine room space, though does not compare with the more-or-less standing headroom of the Nordhavn line. The older Nordhavn mostly came with Luggers, and all Nordhavn are equipped with wing engines which is a plus on both accounts.

Financially, I think you'd work out better with trying to resell a Nordhavn than most any other brand let alone a NP/Helmsman. Personally, assuming the NP (or Helmsman) is as nice as it appears to be, I'd lean towards either for the trip you're contemplating. I personally like full-width salons and can live without side decks. Some folks prefer side-decks.

Good luck

Peter

What Ksanders said.

If you want twins, there aren't many choices.

ksanders;890891......being retired who cares if you are “stuck” in port in a Coastal Cruiser......[B said:

I would buy the MOST comfortable boat for you and your traveling companion as #1 priority.[/B] Whatever that boat is, that is the one to buy.......Choose the most live aboard friendly boat you can get, and stay in port on snotty days......
never forget that when you are living on a boat for any significant length of time, live aboard comfort is paramount.

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My thoughts exactly!

Getting back to the OP? What has been your cruising experience with your Navigator, and why is it not a candidate for your long term vessel? Based on your cruising experience, what have you learned is most important to you and yours? Knowing those things, then the group may be able to come up with some better suggestions on what to look at.

Sunchaser makes some great points, particularly when it comes to piloting and maintenance ergonomics. Age of the hull is not much of a determining factor at all. It's all the systems installed inside the hull that cost money, time and effort (and various degrees of agility) to maintain and replace. An older boat with recently updated or overhauled systems may well be a better value than a "newer" one that has not.

Comodave said:

While I really like the quality of the Nordhavns, they are not as spacious as some others. If your goal isn’t crossing oceans then I would go with the roomier boat.

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I agree with the above but I would add a "roomier stand-up ER & twins."

leeman said:

If you want twins, there aren't many choices.

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If one assumes a get home, all Ns are twins as well as many Selenes. The new kid on the block, the N41 has twins. Plenty of choices and no absolutes fit the OPs post.

Add to the list, well found vessels like Hatteras, DeFever, Cheoy Lee, Grand Banks and many more. Calteflex's thought is correct, why not a Navigator?

caltexflanc said:

Getting back to the OP? What has been your cruising experience with your Navigator, and why is it not a candidate for your long term vessel?

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Great question it's a 97 and access will become a problem. I'd prefer to be able to walk into an ER to maintain systems. Long term such as batteries, oil changes, zincs, filters, and such. I'd also like a larger salon. Something closer to 50-60. The Gator has a nice salon and for us a bit larger of a cockpit than necessary. I'd like more salon space than cockpit. Ideally I would be looking to something as a resale that has most of the systems I would like to see.

Just starting the process, more thinking at this stage. About five years from now I'll get serious. In the mean time it's improving the systems on the current boat, making cosmetic upgrades, catching up on some delayed maintenance and such. The Gator is working well for us now and might just into retirement but I'd like something a bit heavier and over all larger for long term living.

Although I would love a Nordhavn or KK of any vintage, I guess, for you, I would go with a newer boat.

pete

Lieutenant Colonel Alastair Edward Henry Worsley MBE

I haven't seen MBE show up in anything I've read for a long time. My dad had an MBE and Mention in Dispatch from WW 2 (Italian campaign - the first real D day for the invasion of Europe by Allied troops).

One thing to consider is how long you expect to be away from the dock. This will vary from boat to boat with the longer range boats having more redundancy and capacity.

Things like
Dual generators
Dual domestic water pumps
Dual water heaters
Water and waste tank capacity
Water Maker
Storage and refrigeration capacity.
Trash compactor
Dual anchors.
etc.

You don't need most of them but for example not having domestic water available shuts down the fun part of cruising pretty quickly.

J hall
Hundreds if not thousands of vessels ply the waters annually from Oregon to AK lacking most of the items on your list. No problem finding shore stops to deal with fluid fills, stores and general maintenance assistance.

By all means carry spare parts for wear items. Two things to remember though, spotty cell phone service and no tow boat assistance. You're often on your own, a real treat for most of us.

I'm with you 100% on the accessibility thing. We used to charter a beautiful GB 49 Classic up through the San Juans and Gulf Islands, and another beauty, a GB 49MY in SW Florida, and one of many things I loved about them was the standup engine room and sensible positioning and layout of systems.

The old definition of cruising holds true "Fixing your boat in exotic places".

When it came time for us to buy a boat to live onboard and cruise full time for several years (well, about 6, but that was up from the "plan" to do it for two) those values and many others made the must have list. The old Hatteras 53' + Motoryachts (and the new/newer ones too, actually) had great walk-in (two doors each) engine rooms one for each engine on each side of the companionway to the aft stateroom and extremely well thought out system design and layout. We ended up with a 56 and loved it, maybe loved it too much.

sunchaser said:

J hall
Hundreds if not thousands of vessels ply the waters annually from Oregon to AK lacking most of the items on your list. No problem finding shore stops to deal with fluid fills, stores and general maintenance assistance.

By all means carry spare parts for wear items. Two things to remember though, spotty cell phone service and no tow boat assistance. You're often on your own, a real treat for most of us.

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Of course most boats don't have all of that. But that's not really my point. It's more about how the boat is designed to be used. Do you want to be able to stay out comfortably for 1, 3, 7, 10 days? It's something to consider when you are boat shopping.

As for spares would you rather have a spare freshwater pump tucked away on the boat or already hooked up? Not much difference in cost but a huge difference in what happens when pump # 1 fails. Flip a switch or an immediate must repair. There's a reason Nordhavn's cost that much

I sailed around the world without:

Dual generators (any generator actually)
Dual domestic water pumps
Dual water heaters
Trash compactor

We were away from "the dock" for roughly three years of the five year trip.
Two voyages of 18 days, plenty of around a week.

You absolutely do not "need" any of that.

Make the choices to suit your cruising needs as they are now and the foreseeable future.
Unless of course you just want to own a Nordhavn, then go for it regardless.

Remember the more a boat is built and outfitted to cross oceans the less comfortable it will be for daily living.

Huge fuel tanks , water storage , food storage ,parts inventory and all the rest take up room for people.

Cabins and interior spaces will have handrails , and are generally built tighter to keep occupants from flying further .

IF you will actually be crossing blue water many compromises are required , for most cruising they are not needed which may save 2/3 of the price of the boat.

Buying what you need is wise , purchasing bragging rights is expensive.

Selecting a live-aboard cruising boat, is by it's nature a subjective process. General coarse metrics can be universally applied but the ultimate metric is whether the boat allows you the most flexibility to go where you intend with options to change your mind, in the comfort and life style you desire. I am a pragmatic cruiser, so easy and complete access to all systems is essential. I was advised when I started cruising by an old salt "...sonny don't forget everything on a boat be broken, ya just don't know it yet..."! Access produces dividends via prevention and time$$$ saved for repairs and the eventual system replacement when paying by the hour for marine technician labor.
Air draft and in water draft can severely limit or facilitate where you can go and anchor. Getting onto and off the boat is something you will do repeatedly. Can you easily get on and off the boat safely? How about carrying a dog, groceries and parts. Have a bad back or knee/hip. Orthopedic injuries don't get better with age. How about getting into or out of a dinghy? A boats ability to cross oceans is often overblown as is seldom done by most boaters and alternative options such as shipping are always available. I personally like the comfort afforded by truly redundant twins with separate running gears that actually cruise the boat near normal cruise speed and still enable handling. Tanks that won't corrode(e.g. fiberglass) are a real plus in the out years resell values. Storage is another. You will fill it and need it. All that said, I am a huge fan of the Great Harbour Trawlers especially the N's (My favorite, however I am prejudiced as I formally owned one and cruised it 44,000+ miles. They have proven open water cruising histories(one went to Hawaii, another to Bermuda from Jacksonville Fa.) and are unmatched by interior space within their 37'X15'11" foot print. Lot's to think about good luck, stay safe and Healthy.

Don't let the word "coastal" fool you. Coastal cruising is ocean cruising with rocks.

Of all the boats mentioned the Nordhavn's are the only true ocean crossing passagemakers.

Since i am new to boating and am picking up a new np45 next week outside of fuel capacity what does a nordhaven have that a np45 doesn't?

magna 6882 said:

Since i am new to boating and am picking up a new np45 next week outside of fuel capacity what does a nordhaven have that a np45 doesn't?

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The fuel range to cross oceans
The survivability to safely venture forth beyond weather forecast windows.

Your boat is a Coastal Cruiser, and so is mine so I’m not cutting down coastal Cruisers.

The passagemaking ready boats are set up to withstand any reasonable unforecast sea state, where your Coastal Cruiser cannot survive those conditions.

Your boat, actually Any coastal Cruiser is safe to go to sea taking into account that weather forecasts are good for 72 hours. That means being at any time no more than 72 hours from a safe place.

A Passagemaker has to by nature be able to survive at sea well beyond the 72 hour weather forecasting window.

magna 6882 said:

Since i am new to boating and am picking up a new np45 next week outside of fuel capacity what does a nordhaven have that a np45 doesn't?

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A detailed visit to a Nordhavn will provide answers.

I forgot to mention, Great Harbour Trawlers are unsinkable. 2 tried and didn't/couldn't. One burnt to waterline the other holed by a concrete dock below the waterline and was found floating several miles away. They are solid glass below the rub rail and cored above with nida core and divinycell. They will flood to a refusal point , just about the galley floor, a mess and ugly yes but the only reason to abandoned ship is in a rescue or fire.

A similar size Nordhavn will be weighing 80000 pounds compared to your 45s displacement of 35 to 40.