Oil Change - remove filters first?

Changing Oil Filter

High Wire said:

Oil absorbing sheets bale of 100 for about $30 on Amazon.

You can try the hole punch method but for my inverted filter that just made more mess. As an alternative: Prep the new filters. Spin those filters off fast one at a time with oil sheets under and into a bucket. One filter off, new filter spun into place because oil will ooze out of the open housing, then onto the second. You also might be able to get a “form-a-funnel “ under the filter flange to catch the drippings.

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Archie, The hole punch works really well on our Monk, especially since the filter is upside down. What were they thinking? I'm convinced that people who design this stuff never have to use it. I do put pads in a big plastic bag and push it under the filter so that the minute it's unscrewed it drops right into the bag. Just remember to put tape on the hole otherwise you will have a mess.

To make the process incredibly fast, you can punch a hole in the filter, then run the engine...
Don't ask me how I know.

Installing a remote filter set up is less than $100 - $200 and you never have to deal with a mess again.

May I be controversial? If you drain the engine oil from the lowest point (sump plug) or by using an electric oil pump, you don't need the oil to be warm.

The reason to heat oil is only to make it flow more easily from the small galleries and spaces where it can hide on its way to the sump.

But, if the engine's been unused for some time, all the 'hiding' oil will have found its way to the sump in any case.

So just drain it, or pump it out, and change the filters at the same time.

If you can, have the oil analysed every two or three years, which will show any wear, and in which parts of the engine.

Sometimes that thick cold oil is very slow to pump out. I've had pump motors overheat trying to do that.

I still think running the engine to get the oil warmed up before an oil change is the best practice. Running the engine stirrs up whatever is at the bottom of the oil pan to be pumped out and reduce the viscosity of the oil to make it easier and faster to pump out.

The drain plug is rarely at the low point of the pan so suspending impurities by running the engine will hopefully get the impurities out.

I use a non detergent 40 weight oil which would tax some pumps when cold.

I dont know of any reliable sources that dont recommend running, warming oil before draining.
Might be interested if there is a good source.

Oh yes,
I’ve always read and been told that one must extract oil after running and the longer run the better. I shoot for an hour. The idea being to get as much debris in suspension and pump or drain it out as soon as possible after shutdown.

But there may be next to nothing in suspension in the oil. I din’t really know as to how much debris is or may be in the oil. I suppose one could put some of the oil in a glass container and check it later. Haven’t ever done that.

I've always drained the oil before removing the filter, we're talking about engine-attached filter aren't we? Don't believe that is wrong. Then replace the filter before replacing the oil. But that was during my younger days. Now have a professionals servicing my boat's and automobile's engines.

What is the price differential of a boat maintained between an owner's versus a professional's assuming the owner identifies maintenance needs?

markpierce said:

What is the price differential of a boat maintained between an owner's versus a professional's assuming the owner identifies maintenance needs?

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My Leman 120 takes 3 gallons of oil @ $23/gal equals $69

PH8A oil filter is $4

$80 total with sales tax

Westerbeke 5.5 generator takes 1 gallon of oil @ $20

PH7317 oil filter is $4

$26 total with sales tax

TOTAL FOR BOTH is $104

The Racor fuel filters get replaced when vacuum gauge hits the first mark. About every three years. The fuel filters on the engine gets replaced every 10 years.

Transmission fluid change about every 4 years and coolant change about every 6 years when pH hits a certain point. So maybe $20 per year spread out.

With one engine and not hiring out work, the cost of maintenance is minimal. Equal to 2 nights at a marina or dinner out.

Mark you’re in for a surprise. I can’t buy the oil and filter at the parts store for what Toyota charges for the oil change.
So they change it.

greatpapabear said:

May I be controversial? If you drain the engine oil from the lowest point (sump plug) or by using an electric oil pump, you don't need the oil to be warm.

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Told you I'd be controversial! The heaviest oil the Reverso pumps on Play d'eau is SAE 40 form the gearboxes and it doesn't hiccup or miss a beat.

As far as warming the oil to stir up muck at the base of the sump, that would have been happening every time you run the engines, and any muck picked up will have been caught by the filters. Hence, i don't see this is an argument.

By warming the oil before draining, much will be left hiding in the galleries so you won't get a full oil change.

However, as with many ways of running a boat (teak cleaning, polishing, mooring, and so, so many more) we all have our own methods which we hold dear.

So, controversial? Yes, I thought it would be. But it works for me, and the bi-annual oil analysis has always (so far) come back 'normal' - and that's after 17 years which I think is not bad at all.

"As far as warming the oil to stir up muck at the base of the sump, that would have been happening every time you run the engines, and any muck picked up will have been caught by the filters. Hence, i don't see this is an argument."

The hassle is the fine material,( thin like valve grinding paste) passes right thru the filter .Only getting it into suspension and removing it works.

On larger engines two oil tanks are used , so the contaminated oil is exchanged easily by simply throwing a valve. This is for Prime power sets that would power a hospital , or town 24/7/365.

Quote "So, controversial? Yes, I thought it would be. But it works for me, and the bi-annual oil analysis has always (so far) come back 'normal' - and that's after 17 years which I think is not bad at all."

Piers
I understand your rationale for draining cold (I dont necessarily agree or do it that way).
I would add that all proper sampling procedures I've read recommend running before pulling the sample and wonder if you follow that recommendation when sampling or just pull a sample when draining cold?
Have you ever done both and compared results with about the same hrs on the oil?
Thnx
Don

I have never been able to use a bag on a filter while unscrewing the filter without making a mess. Like grabbing a greased pig. Keep it simple drain the filter then remove it without risk. Add a quick wipe then a bit of duct tape over the drain hole if you are in a hurry.

Bacchus wrote;
“Have you ever done both and compared results with about the same hrs on the oil?“

Actually we more or les do that every time we change oil. Consider that the oil oil coming out is always black. And what comes out of the can (new oil) is not black. I think the black in oil is carbon. And that’s the biggest reason we change oil. Carbon is abrasive and causes engine “wear” so we get rid of it. I’m only 95% sure the black is carbon so if you’ve got other ideas lets hear them. Read it several to many times though.

Nomad Willy said:

Bacchus wrote;
“Have you ever done both and compared results with about the same hrs on the oil?“

Actually we more or les do that every time we change oil. Consider that the oil oil coming out is always black. And what comes out of the can (new oil) is not black. I think the black in oil is carbon. And that’s the biggest reason we change oil. Carbon is abrasive and causes engine “wear” so we get rid of it. I’m only 95% sure the black is carbon so if you’ve got other ideas lets hear them. Read it several to many times though.

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You may be on to something.

I guess my question was misunderstood as I'm confused by the responses.
What I was asking was
1) Does Piers pull samples when oil is cold / not run & circulated? If so, That is counter to what I've read about recommended sampling procedure.

2) Has anyone pulled a non-circulated cold sample AND one that has been run hot (at the same engine hrs) to see if there is any detectable difference?

All the above...... An idea would be, after all the warm ups and etc are done, to drill/tap a hole in the top of the filter. After engine has drained, rotate the filter one half turn and let the remaining oil drain into a jug of some sort. Usually filters don’t drain on the first half turn-ish. It’s worth the try. I’ve seen it don’t before, so.....
Have fun!! ?

With my 6LYA-STP Yanmar I run the engine to heat up the oil then wait about an hour to give most of the oil in the filter (I only have 1) a chance to drain. Then I change the oil. I the wait several hours or if possible the next day to change the filter. I slide a trash bag all the way under the unscrew the filter. Most of what is left in the filter can be caught in the bag. Also, once you remove the filter you will notice a recessed area under the filter that will catch a small amount of oil the you can easily clean up. just have pads and rags handy because it is messy. At boat shows I always make it a point to bitch at the Yanmar sales people about their filter position with the hope that it might get back to engineering. BTW I have tried the drilling the hole option and when you unscrew the filter the oil comes out the front before the hole will get to a bucket.
John

After just a half turn? ? Nest time you change the oil, add an extra half turn! ?

FF said:

The hassle is the fine material,( thin like valve grinding paste) passes right thru the filter .Only getting it into suspension and removing it works.

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Now that's something I'd never considered, always assuming the filter would have removed anything which might have caused problems.

You've provoked me to speak with Cummins (where i did the tech courses) and the oil test facility. I'll post results as soon as poss (COVID delays...)

Hopefully I'm right, but if I'm wrong, I'm really grateful.

Bacchus said:

Piers
I understand your rationale for draining cold (I dont necessarily agree or do it that way).
I would add that all proper sampling procedures I've read recommend running before pulling the sample and wonder if you follow that recommendation when sampling or just pull a sample when draining cold?
Have you ever done both and compared results with about the same hrs on the oil?
Thnx
Don

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Morning Don.

When sampling the oil, I've always followed the 'warm the oil first' instructions.

But, your suggestion is a really good idea (experiment?) - I'll do it next time (2021).

Please update us with results if you do the comparison.

Bacchus said:

Please update us with results if you do the comparison.

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Hi Don,

I will.

Piers

I am changing the lube oil in my Yanmar 6LY2AN-STP today and the spec says it hold 5.2 gallons of oil, however the amount that was drained, via the XChanger Drain system, was only 3.7 gallons.....where's the rest of the oil?

I figured i wouldn't get it all out but that seemed odd.

Still in the 2 filters I haven't removed/replaced yet?

The specs on my smaller Yanmar 6LPA-STP state that about 25% of the oil is contained in the "oil path" which I take to include a few ounces in the upside-down mounted filter. You experience is not unusual.

Jeff
I agree with Rich - I'm usually shy of the listed capacity for my 6LYA when draining & refilling. I also see darkening oil fresh oil quickly which indicates enough dirty oil left behind to provide the color change.
I have made it a habit to refill via the cap instead of using the X- Changr pump to avoid introducing any more dirty oil from the drain & pump.

Bacchus said:

Please update us with results if you do the comparison.

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Hi. I did, and there was no difference - apart from paying twice the fee!

Ok, much appreciate the comments, all went well. I think I will go ahead and replace the racor today as well.