Head Flush - Raw water vs Fresh water

MYMT said:

Thanks Marin, I'll see about getting her email...

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You can try sending her a Private Message through this forum. Although retired she may still have them still set to automatically forward to her email address. HeadMistress is her user name. May be worth a shot?

I wasn't going to comment but I wasn't aware Peggy had retired from the forum although I'd noticed she hadn't posted in quite a while.

I"M NO EXPERT HERE. But the first thing that came to mind, from my outlaws [brother I.L.], experience is HAIR will jam and foul up a lot of things. It's tough and stringy and may foul the toilet valves, plug the toilet bowl rim holes and may cause trouble in the holding tank with the pumpout. Shower soap may not help either although I expect that particular item can be gotten around.

If the smell of old seawater after non use weekend to weekend is the trouble I have taken to pouring a kettle full , cold water, into the toilet and flushing that through so no seawater is left in the bowl. Smell gone.

Thank You Peggy from here and the other Forums you have participated on.

C lectric said:

I wasn't going to comment but I wasn't aware Peggy had retired from the forum although I'd noticed she hadn't posted in quite a while.

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She made this announcement on the Grand Banks owners forum a month or so ago. I dont know if she made similar posts to the other forums she participated in, but her post to the GB forum referenced retiring from ALL internet forum participation, not just the GB forum. Her reason was that it is very time consuming and after many years of doing this she felt it was time to use her time for other things.

Considering how much time and effort she put into perusing forums, contributing to threads, and writing up her advice--- in many cases for probably the thousandth time--- and helping all of us out in countless ways, it certainly seems to me that she well deserves to use her time for herself now.

MYMT said:

Hi, new guy here. Just bought a MT Trawler and am learning the ropes so to speak. I have been reading all the comments about fresh water flushing and thought I'd ask...I have a gray water tank for the shower that has a sump pump and am thinking of utilizing the gray water for a fresh water toilet flush. Will reroute the drain hose from the sink and maybe raise the float level in the tank just a bit to ensure an adaquate amount of water for flushing. The gray water doesnt stink now, and I supposed it would be fairly easy to keep some kind of order/cleaning solution in the tank if it became necessary. Seems like a good idea to me, but I may be overlooking something...what do you think?

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Thimk that one through a little more.

A fresh water head expects (needs) pressurized water to operate. The water in your shower sump is not pressurized. Your "sump pump" will not provide this pressure, you will have to install a different type of pump. You will also have to filter out the hair and soap scum ahead of the pump.

I don't know about you and your boat, but we don't use enough water showering to meet our flushing needs. And we shower outside in the cockpit when possible to minimize cleanup. Or in the marina facilities.

With a standard fresh water flush head, you just poop and flush. No complications like taking a shower beforehand. Same with a raw water flush. Why complicate things?

MYMT, I think you are just asking for trouble using grey water to flush a marine toilet, hair and soap will eventually gum up the works. Since the boat is new to you why don't you live with the sea water flush for a while and see how you like it?A lot of people are perfectly happy with sea water flushing. If you decide you want a fresh water flush, you can install a dedicated water tank for your existing toilet or buy a marine toilet that is designed to flush using your pressurized water system. Don't connect any toilet to your potable water system unless it was designed for that use. You need three books for your boat, Chapman, Nigel Calder and Peggy Hall.

Our '73 boat has salt water flush for both heads and it works just fine. No odor problems and using them does not deplete our fresh water supply, not that that would be an isue in the local cruising we do right now. But if the day comes we can take several month cruises up the Passage to SE Alaska, conserving our fresh water during some stretches of the run would be important.

Peggy published a book on the subject of marine toilets,see if you can search it out, though your question is very specific and may not be dealt with. BruceK

I think I found the smell problem. The line feeding seawater to the toilet from the through hull is 3/4 IO but all the sludge that has built up in it makes it barely 3/8!
The water coming up through all that sludge is what stunk so bad. I'll be changing out that line tomorrow. Thanks for the comments though, I appreciate the folks taking the time to try and help. So much to learn...

MYMT

I had a pleasant email exchange with the now retired Peggie Hall(aka HeadMistress) last night. She lurked a look at your question about gray water on this thread last night and stated it would be a very bad idea to summarize our exchange.

She stated that anyone that wishes to pick her mind about a marine sanitation issue they are having on their boat can contact her directly through email and she will do her best to help you through it. She just has no more desire to work the forums 2 to 4 hours a day anymore.

If you(or anyone else) can not locate her email address please send me a pm and I will send it to you.

BobH said:

The problem with sea water flush is that if you don't use the toilet for a while the water in the flush lines starts to stink. All kinds of organism in there die off. It's not a problem if the toilet is in daily use.

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To expand on that statement, the organisms (creatures and plant life) die in the intake hose and the area around the rim of the head and then when you finally do flush the head, the flush water contains these dead organisms and the smell of them decaying.

The smell goes away after a few flushes but some organisms remain and the problem gets worse over time.

A partial solution to the problem is to install a filter as close to the seacock as is practical to trap the organisms. This at least keeps them from lodging in the hose and head passages.

It works for me.

Thanks Peggy, you will live on in the archives.

Lots of opinions are posted here, very few with the working knowledge that Peggy brought to the issues raised.She did not so much venture an opinion but told you what's what in the world of marine loos.

Peggy's moto 'Gare de l'eau'

Cheers,

Andy

Andy G said:

Thanks Peggy, you will live on in the archives.

Lots of opinions are posted here, very few with the working knowledge that Peggy brought to the issues raised.She did not so much venture an opinion but told you what's what in the world of marine loos.

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Some of the "opinions" posted here are based on Peggy's writings.

One of the things that sets humans apart from other animals is our ability to learn from the experiences of others rather than making all the mistakes ourslves.

rwidman said:

Some of the "opinions" posted here are based on Peggy's writings.

One of the things that sets humans apart from other animals is our ability to learn from the experiences of others rather than making all the mistakes ourslves.

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Very good point. I have never understood the mindset of some people--- and there are at least two of them participating in this forum--- who totally discount any information that has not been experienced first hand by the person conveying he information. I have yet to meet anyone who knows everything about everything based on personal experience. But I "know" a lot of people with expert information from reading their writings (like Peggy's), meeting them, employing them, working with them, and so forth.

I find the "if you haven't experienced it directly you don't know it" attitude the same as saying, "Since you didn't discover that two and two equals four you have no business telling anyone else that it does."

And ironically, I've found the people who hold to this attitude to generally be the most ignorant in the room.

My only comment is that the marine business tends to be a closed loop.

These forums are all about how to solve problems and answer questions....to a point....and hopefully shed light outside that closed loop.

When "experts" from the marine field have something to gain by staying in lockstep with established practices that aren't regulated... because of possible allegiances with manufacturers...then that's where they fall short of being an expert in my view.

A good example might be a discussion about polyester resin and epoxy resin coating of a surface. If you have ties to the epoxy industry...anything less is insane...even if polyester in a particular application might be just fine and way less costly for a particular boater. Sure...epoxy is rarely the wrong answer...but it's not always the right/only answer.

Comments like using something inferior hurting the sale of a 25+ year old boat in less than perfect condition is just as silly....especially when there's no yardstick to measure whether the "alternative" product is really inferior.

So... the bottom line is... experts in the marine field certainly have their place...they just don't have the last word....and where I come from many consider me a "boating expert" but feel free to have the "last word"....

psneeld said:

So... the bottom line is... experts in the marine field certainly have their place...they just don't have the last word....

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It's been my observation that the marine industry--- like the fishing industry--- is very conservative, and I don't mean politically. Witness, for example, Bob Smith's continued adherence to his belief that Marvel Mystery Oil is essential to maintain the proper fuel lubricity for the FL120 in spite of the fact that a recent additive study sponsored by the trucking industry determined that MMO actually reduces fuel lubricity.

I'm not trying to discredit Bob--- few if any people on the planet know as much about Lehman marinizations than he does. I'm simply using this as another illustration of Psneeld's point.

Or the resistance of many boaters to the idea that a new anchor design can be as or more effective than the old standbys. Even experts in terms of longevity and experience on the water tend to mistrust newfangled things like rollbar anchors and such. There seems to be an inherent mistrust of "new" in the marine world. Not so much with the manufactureres, but in the users. I'm guilty of it myself in some ways.

It would be interesting to find out why the boating community in general is so resistive to change when it comes to new ideas about everything from anchors to oil.

Marin said:

It's been my observation that the marine industry--- like the fishing industry--- is very conservative, and I don't mean politically. Witness, for example, Bob Smith's continued adherence to his belief that Marvel Mystery Oil is essential to maintain the proper fuel lubricity for the FL120 in spite of the fact that a recent additive study sponsored by the trucking industry determined that MMO actually reduces fuel lubricity.

I'm not trying to discredit Bob--- few if any people on the planet know as much about Lehman marinizations than he does. I'm simply using this as another illustration of Psneeld's point.

Or the resistance of many boaters to the idea that a new anchor design can be as or more effective than the old standbys. Even experts in terms of longevity and experience on the water tend to mistrust newfangled things like rollbar anchors and such. There seems to be an inherent mistrust of "new" in the marine world. Not so much with the manufactureres, but in the users. I'm guilty of it myself in some ways.

It would be interesting to find out why the boating community in general is so resistive to change when it comes to new ideas about everything from anchors to oil.

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It's is weird...at first I thought that I might compare the marine world to aviation/space flight because when things go wrong...bad things usually happen...and like the air, water can be an unforgiving environment.

But that's not true..aviation/aviators usually embrace advances and move ahead quickly..so that isn't a fair comparison. As a shipboard helo pilot we used to joke when having those "friendly" jib-jab sessions aboard with the ship guys that no matter what...the reason we disagreed was that we thought at 120 knots while they were thinking at 12 knots... Hope now that I'm a trawler guy I haven't slowed to 6.5 knots!!!

Maybe it's just that there's not enough feedback that is trusted/repeatable.

Autos have millions on the road everyday. Aviation files detailed reoprts on every little thing. But in the marine world..too many variables I guess. There's a post I just read where a guy said he was having trouble anchoring in a particular spot with a new gen anchor. Sounded like he did everything right and it still kept breaking out. Yet others anchor there all the time. My response would have been..I probably would have to be there to see what was going on...completely useless info to the guy and I learned nothing from his experience because I have no clue if his post was accurate, his technique is "the same" as what everyone else suggests other than his short version post, etc...etc.

So.... the best thing to come along for the boating industry probably is the internet...at least we can form an opinion based on many tidbits rather than just what the "old salts" at the dock or a wad of prolific writers in marine mags say..

It would be interesting to find out why the boating community in general is so resistive to change when it comes to new ideas about everything from anchors to oil.[/QUOTE]

That needs a new post in its own right

Andy G said:

It would be interesting to find out why the boating community in general is so resistive to change when it comes to new ideas about everything from anchors to oil.

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That needs a new post in its own right[/QUOTE]

It's not resistant to change, it's just that some people get on web forums just to argue. Kind of like sitting in a bar drinking.

This thread is way off track like so many others on this site. A bunch of guys bumping dick heads,

rwidman said:

That needs a new post in its own right

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It's not resistant to change, it's just that some people get on web forums just to argue. Kind of like sitting in a bar drinking.

This thread is way off track like so many others on this site. A bunch of guys bumping dick heads,[/QUOTE]

kinda like this post....just a retort with no new info AT ALL....either on the OP post or any other....some people don't even know when they are THE argumentative one....

psneeld said:

It's not resistant to change, it's just that some people get on web forums just to argue. Kind of like sitting in a bar drinking.

This thread is way off track like so many others on this site. A bunch of guys bumping dick heads,

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....some people don't even know when they are THE argumentative one....[/QUOTE]

That's very true. I suggest looking in a mirror.