ABYC Cite PLEASE?

Does someone have access to ABYC recommendations please post or PM me the cite for the below?

Thank You


The 110-volt system lacks an intermediate main circuit breaker between the shore power inlet and the circuit
breaker panel main breaker. A 50 amp circuit breaker with runs of over ten feet between the panel and shore
power inlet should be installed.
Recommendation: Install a 50 amp double pole for both lines near the aft of the salon bulk head.

Yikes, that's a new one. Our boat has a shore power plug on the bow and the stern, both with a breaker right next to them. But it's a long way from there to the breaker on the main electrical panel. Way more than 10 feet.

porman said:

Yikes, that's a new one. Our boat has a shore power plug on the bow and the stern, both with a breaker right next to them. But it's a long way from there to the breaker on the main electrical panel. Way more than 10 feet.

Click to expand...

The breaker right next to the plug meets the requirement. The idea is that dockside breakers shouldn't be trusted (and people do dumb stuff like using adapters to hook 30A cords and boats to a 50A dock plug where the breaker can't protect stuff). So while it doesn't help the cord, having a breaker close to the inlet minimizes the potentially unprotected run inside the boat.

ABYC....


11.10.2.8.3 Additional Overcurrent Protection - If the location of the main shore power disconnect
circuit breaker is in excess of 10 feet (three meters) from the shore power inlet or the electrical attachment
point of a permanently installed shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers shall be provided
within 10 feet (three meters) of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the boat.
Measurement is made along the conductors.

psneeld said:

ABYC....


11.10.2.8.3 Additional Overcurrent Protection - If the location of the main shore power disconnect
circuit breaker is in excess of 10 feet (three meters) from the shore power inlet or the electrical attachment
point of a permanently installed shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers shall be provided
within 10 feet (three meters) of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the boat.
Measurement is made along the conductors.

Click to expand...

Thank you. Well its raining tomorrow and my haul out was cancelled. So a wire hunt tomorrow. Simple c/b box with two 50 amp breakers.

Still hate ABYC.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Thank you. Well its raining tomorrow and my haul out was cancelled. So a wire hunt tomorrow. Simple c/b box with two 50 amp breakers.

Still hate ABYC.

Click to expand...

When you get it all back together, turn on every thing on the boat and check the temp of the main disconnect feeder between the connector and the panel - just feel of it.

You'll likely want to rethink your opinion of ABYC!

Olebird said:

When you get it all back together, turn on every thing on the boat and check the temp of the main disconnect feeder between the connector and the panel - just feel of it.

You'll likely want to rethink your opinion of ABYC!

Click to expand...

Cold as the north pole. Why are folks insisting that a 1988 boat must meet all ABYC requirements for 2020?

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Cold as the north pole. Why are folks insisting that a 1988 boat must meet all ABYC requirements for 2020?

Click to expand...

think the only ones insisting are the insurance companies since it's their money at risk.

boatpoker said:

think the only ones insisting are the insurance companies since it's their money at risk.

Click to expand...

You do have a point.

Well, you can accept doing the work the insurance company requires or go to another insurance company. However they will want a survey and you will be right back to the same place. Probably best to stay with the company you have a history with than going somewhere else. Blue Seas make some breaker panels that will do the job. They have both flush mount and surface mount panels.

What I would do unless the boat already has one.


https://www.boatersland.com/blu3119...DksiTOpdL679-v_Vq9MxER9MOx1nz1QhoC66YQAvD_BwE

Here's my less expensive, homemade version.

Yeah, that's a fairly new one. Wasn't an issue on our previous boat, bought four years ago, but the surveyor dinged us when we bought Wanderlust a year ago and dinged my buddy when he bought his boat a month ago. Not a retrofit I'm going to take on myself. This is something for which an electrician will be called.

Is the issue just that you don't have a breaker near the power inlet, and it's more than a 10' run to your breaker panel?


Or do you have a breaker at the power inlet, and an additional breaker is being recommended?


I think it's the first, but want to confirm.


And just out of curiosity, who is asking you to implement this recommendation?

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Does someone have access to ABYC recommendations please post or PM me the cite for the below?

Thank You


The 110-volt system lacks an intermediate main circuit breaker between the shore power inlet and the circuit
breaker panel main breaker. A 50 amp circuit breaker with runs of over ten feet between the panel and shore
power inlet should be installed.
Recommendation: Install a 50 amp double pole for both lines near the aft of the salon bulk head.

Click to expand...

Yes, the 10' rule (wire feet) is part of ABYC E-11, and is not a new requirement..


E-11 7/2018

"11.10.2.8.3 Additional Overcurrent Protection - If the location of the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker is in excess of 10 ft (three meters) from the shore power inlet or the electrical attachment point of a permanently installed shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers shall be provided within 10 ft (three meters) of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the boat. Measurement is made along the conductors."


The oldest version of E-11 I can locate right now, on my hard drive, yet I know I have older ones, is;

E-11 7/2003:

"11.12.2.9.3 If the location of the main shore
power disconnect circuit breaker is in excess of 10 feet
(three meters) from the shore power inlet or the
electrical attachment point of a permanently installed
shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers
shall be provided within 10 feet (three meters) of the
inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the
boat. Measurement is made along the conductors."




.

psneeld said:

What I would do unless the boat already has one.


https://www.boatersland.com/blu3119...DksiTOpdL679-v_Vq9MxER9MOx1nz1QhoC66YQAvD_BwE

Click to expand...

WOW $500 for just the junction box and 2 breakers. I think I will do as you did and make my own.

twistedtree said:

Is the issue just that you don't have a breaker near the power inlet, and it's more than a 10' run to your breaker panel?


Or do you have a breaker at the power inlet, and an additional breaker is being recommended?


I think it's the first, but want to confirm.


And just out of curiosity, who is asking you to implement this recommendation?

Click to expand...

Yes. See CMS post below.

No current breaker, will have to install one. I will have to search for the wiring between the shore power inlet and the current circuit breaker panel.

It was a write-up on my survey.

CMS said:

Yes, the 10' rule (wire feet) is part of ABYC E-11, and is not a new requirement..


E-11 7/2018

"11.10.2.8.3 Additional Overcurrent Protection - If the location of the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker is in excess of 10 ft (three meters) from the shore power inlet or the electrical attachment point of a permanently installed shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers shall be provided within 10 ft (three meters) of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the boat. Measurement is made along the conductors."


The oldest version of E-11 I can locate right now, on my hard drive, yet I know I have older ones, is;

E-11 7/2003:

"11.12.2.9.3 If the location of the main shore
power disconnect circuit breaker is in excess of 10 feet
(three meters) from the shore power inlet or the
electrical attachment point of a permanently installed
shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers
shall be provided within 10 feet (three meters) of the
inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the
boat. Measurement is made along the conductors."




.

Click to expand...

Thank you CMS

So by the response here on TF some of you have this, some don't.

So CMS what is the intention of ABYC when it comes to situations like this. They really don't expect every boat to be updated to 2020 recommendations do they?

Wait a minute. It says "permanently installed shore power cord". Almost all of our (TF members) cords are removable.

porman said:

Wait a minute. It says "permanently installed shore power cord". Almost all of our (TF members) cords are removable.

Click to expand...

It says "shore power inlet or the electrical attachment point of a permanently installed shore power cord", so both situations are covered.

Good morning ASD,
We have basically the same boat. Took a while to find, but the breakers are under the lower helm, tucked up on top of a horizontal piece of wood...

Not sure if that's what you're looking for/referring to...

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

So by the response here on TF some of you have this, some don't.

So CMS what is the intention of ABYC when it comes to situations like this. They really don't expect every boat to be updated to 2020 recommendations do they?

Click to expand...

ABYC writes the safety standards, and unlike some countries they are not a Federal law (except for some parts of the standards that have been adopted into the CFR).

Some boat-builders adhere to the safety standards and some flat out ignore them.

If you want insurance, you'll need a survey, if the surveyor calls out dangerous electrical, propane, fuel etc., etc. issues your insurer will likely insist the boat be made safe based on the surveyors report.

It is really not the ABYC you're dealing with, there are no ABYC police (except for occasional spot inspections at builders who build to ABYC standards), it is your own insurer and they depend upon NAMS and SAMS surveyors, who survey to ABYC.

rslifkin said:

It says "shore power inlet or the electrical attachment point of a permanently installed shore power cord", so both situations are covered.

Click to expand...

I missed that. Thanks

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

WOW $500 for just the junction box and 2 breakers. I think I will do as you did and make my own.




Yes. See CMS post below.

No current breaker, will have to install one. I will have to search for the wiring between the shore power inlet and the current circuit breaker panel.

It was a write-up on my survey.



Thank you CMS

Click to expand...

Just remember what I put in was an ELCI and the cheapest I could find just the breaker was still over $300 and the $500 one can be had for less....

Scottwb96 said:

Good morning ASD,
We have basically the same boat. Took a while to find, but the breakers are under the lower helm, tucked up on top of a horizontal piece of wood...

Not sure if that's what you're looking for/referring to...

Click to expand...

I will have to look.

CMS said:

ABYC writes the safety standards, and unlike some countries they are not a Federal law (except for some parts of the standards that have been adopted into the CFR).

Some boat-builders adhere to the safety standards and some flat out ignore them.

If you want insurance, you'll need a survey, if the surveyor calls out dangerous electrical, propane, fuel etc., etc. issues your insurer will likely insist the boat be made safe based on the surveyors report.

It is really not the ABYC you're dealing with, there are no ABYC police (except for occasional spot inspections at builders who build to ABYC standards), it is your own insurer and they depend upon NAMS and SAMS surveyors, who survey to ABYC.

Click to expand...

OK Understand. Yet some surveyors and the insurance companies treat it as the law.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

OK Understand. Yet some surveyors and the insurance companies treat it as the law.

Click to expand...

Even they dont treat is as law...
AFAIK Its the only meaningful Std that a surveyor can compare to and they report items that dont comply... not violations of law.
Insurance can decide to underwrite or NOT they dont cited anyone for non compliance.
Your decision whether to self insure or not.
Not much different than home insurance... many require code compliance in some areas even though legally you dont have to comply unless doing a significant mod / upgrade.

Yes, the 10’ rule has been in effect for as long as I can remember. And when someone says that it was not called out on their boat survey, it just means that the surveyor didn’t do a proper job. That is not unusual. My boat has 2 30 amp inlets. The factory main electrical panel had only 1 30 amp main breaker. The other 30 amp inlet was wired directly into the bus bar with no over current protection at all. I know that is the way President built the boats because I have inspected 2 others that were wired the same way. The surveyor who did the pre purchase survey did not notice that it only had 1 main breaker instead of 2 main breakers. I have since replaced the main panel and have 2 main breakers, 1 for each inlet.

I think the ABYC are losing the plot more recommendations insuring the insured, insuring the insurer again etc. At this rate i'll have to have breakers every 10ft? 40ft to my engine room from the dock = 30ft x 50amp shore power card. Plus seperate 30ft x 50 amp aircon cord. Where will it stop?
And we wonder why we register in other countries?

Comodave said:

Yes, the 10’ rule has been in effect for as long as I can remember. And when someone says that it was not called out on their boat survey, it just means that the surveyor didn’t do a proper job. That is not unusual. My boat has 2 30 amp inlets. The factory main electrical panel had only 1 30 amp main breaker. The other 30 amp inlet was wired directly into the bus bar with no over current protection at all. I know that is the way President built the boats because I have inspected 2 others that were wired the same way. The surveyor who did the pre purchase survey did not notice that it only had 1 main breaker instead of 2 main breakers. I have since replaced the main panel and have 2 main breakers, 1 for each inlet.

Click to expand...

I understand. My electrical panel has two 50 amp breakers. One for each leg/group.

Scottwb96 said:

Good morning ASD,
We have basically the same boat. Took a while to find, but the breakers are under the lower helm, tucked up on top of a horizontal piece of wood...

Not sure if that's what you're looking for/referring to...

Click to expand...

OK I spent the day trying to get access to the main wires from the input to the helm electrical panel. Nothing. (I did find some extra storage spots, too late the Admiral saw them!) In fact trying to find access where I could mount a breaker box and the proper wires is a big dud. All of the wires are inside raceways/tubes.

So I will have to re-wire my electrical panel. Mount a box under the helm, disconnect the load wires from the electrical panel and wire those into the new breaker box.

Then run two new wires from the new box back to the 50 amp circuit breakers on the electrical panel.

What a waste of time. So I wonder how many boats have actually caught fire because the manufacture failed to install the second breaker box?

Hey Scott can you please post a picture of your breaker box?