Windless Question

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jay b

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Messages
15
Location
United States
Vessel Name
Far Niente
Vessel Make
Mainship Pilot 30
Our Mainship pilot 30 ii has all chain on the anchor and it seems to twist and bunch up going through the windless. I also have had trouble getting used to all chain and was wondering if 15 feet of chain and the rest rope may solve all my ills. Any knowledge and advice would be appreciated.
 
I like all chain. Rope often doesn't feed through the windlass gypsy and hawse hole well.

But I take your point about twisting. Two solutions for all chain twist up:

1. Pull it all out, disconnect the anchor and lay it down and untwist it. Sometimes if you anchor in a deep spot, pull the anchor up until the chain is hanging straight down and let it untwist. This won't remove all twist however.

2. Put a chain swivel at the anchor shank connection. This won't solve all of the twisting but may reduce it.

I have anchored several hundred times while full time cruising and only resorted to the full untwisting once and the partial a few times and I had no swivel.

David
 
Interesting question. Like David (and many other cruiser-types), I prefer all-chain. HOWEVER....for a small boat that will likely see only protected anchorages and occasional use, I would go with a rope/chain combination, maybe with 20-feet of chain. Rope has the benefit of stretch, the down-side is chafe, which should be very unlikely in protected anchorages. That said, your gypsy on the windlass may need to be replaced to haul line.

A few years ago, Practical Sailor did an article on "Swivels - do they work?" Here is an exerpt - roughly aligns to David's guidance on swivels:
In our view, it is unlikely that the swivel will reduce anything but a large number of twists, and these twists could be removed more safely and easily by slowing down the retrieval once the anchor clears the bottom. A slower retrieval also prevents the hydrodynamic force on an unbalanced anchor that might cause it to spin. In fact, anchor spin upon retrieval with a high-speed windlass is probably the most likely cause of twist, and is often mistakenly attributed to the windlass itself. Ironically, if your anchor rotates in a beneficial direction as it comes up, the swivel might actually prevent the anchors rotations from untwisting the chain.

If your anchor chain is twisted to the point that it is forming hockles or causing it to jump from the windlass, you will want to deploy all the chain, untwist it manually, and load it back into the locker. You can do this ashore (and mark your chain lengths at the same time, if needed), but it is often easier in deep water.​
 
Jay,

It is good form to bi-annually pull out your entire chain length and lay it out on the dock for maintenance. Check for corrosion, apply marking paint, check for stretched links, etc... and untwist it.
 
I untwisted mine one night by letting it all hang down in very deep water while sailing across the Gulf of Mexico.

Not on purpose, of course! :D
 
Having a groove in the anchor roller slightly wider than the size of the thickness of the chain will help eliminate twist as you haul in the chain.
 
Rocna's spiel on swivels:

"Swivels

Popular "bullet" style in-line swivel, separated from the anchor by a few links of chain in order to ensure that forces applied can only ever be along the axis of rotation.
The choice of connector depends on a number of things. Essentially, if you don't know you need a swivel, then you probably don't, so just use a shackle.

The need for a swivel

There are several possible scenarios which could demand the use of a swivel.

Your chain leaves the boat. This means that the orientation of the chain has a 75% chance of not being maintained, especially if you are using an auto rope/chain gypsy and do not manually 'right' the chain upon its return. This means the anchor is likely to come up sideways or upside-down, and must right itself on the roller. Lacking a swivel, the chain will then twist and discourage the anchor's righting.
You plan on doing lots of 360s in the same direction while anchored (unlikely in most situations). Some tidal anchorages with unique conditions could present this scenario. In this case, you do not want the chain or rope twisting, as it could kink or eventually even begin to un-lay 3-strand ropes. Chain will only endure a few twists before bunching and knotting.

The Rocna should right itself without fuss on the roller, and bring itself home. We suggest in brief that you use a simple shackle at first, and introduce a swivel only if you feel it is required.

Recommended swivel types

If you do use a swivel, use one of a reputable brand. This mostly precludes generic brands and anything of questionable origin. Galvanized swivels are easily available, cheaper than stainless, but are more "agricultural". They tend to bind when new, then rust at the joint as the galvanizing wears. Stainless swivels are expensive, and you get what you pay for. The budget must be a lot higher than for shackles to obtain equivalent quality and security.

The failure mode of swivels is typically when they are subjected to lateral forces. This means it is ideal to install the swivel in such a way that lateral forces cannot be applied across the joint. One way to do this is to use a reputable inline type with a few links of chain between the anchor and the swivel. Generally, installing the swivel directly on the anchor shank is not a great idea.

Ball-and-joint types go some way toward mitigating this issue, but an articulation of only the typical 30 degrees is barely adequate. The safe-working-loads on these swivels is normally not calculated with a force applied outside of this operating range, which is unrealistic."
 
Jay,

It is good form to bi-annually pull out your entire chain length and lay it out on the dock for maintenance. Check for corrosion, apply marking paint, check for stretched links, etc... and untwist it.

Don't forget to reverse the chain end to ends too. Helps even out wear on both ends of the chain.
 
Having a groove in the anchor roller slightly wider than the size of the thickness of the chain will help eliminate twist as you haul in the chain.

I agree 100%.
 
Don't forget to reverse the chain end to ends too. Helps even out wear on both ends of the chain.

When I bought my boat and pulled the chain out I found that the PO had welded the last link to the stem bar. Wow!
 
When I bought my boat and pulled the chain out I found that the PO had welded the last link to the stem bar. Wow!

I'd cut that chain off at the bar and have a length of rope connect the rode to the bar.

Makes it easy to cut the line and tie a float to it rapidly in case you have to get out of the way of a dragging raft of boats headed towards your anchored boat.
 
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I have all chain and a swivel. I have manually untwisted the chain. It still twists after a few times anchoring.
 
I'd cut that chain off at the bar and have a length of rope connect the rode to the bar.

Makes it easy to cut the line and tie a float to it rapidly in case you have to get out of the way of a dragging raft of boats headed towards your anchored boat.


Would you have the rope ride extend to deck, or stay in the chain locker so the chain is still on the Gypsy?
 
Would you have the rope ride extend to deck, or stay in the chain locker so the chain is still on the Gypsy?

Have it long enough that it comes up to the deck and the chain runs free of the gypsy. That way if you ever have to cut the whole thing loose, you just let it out and cut the line.
 
I made mine long enough to come out of the chain locker but short enough that the end of the chain is engaged in the gypsy. That way, the chain is held in place by the gypsy, which allows you to attach a fender or two to the rode before releasing the rope and tossing the rode overboard. I attach the rope to the chain with a snap hook to allow disconnecting without cutting the rope.
 
Interesting thread. I have 70' of chain followed by 200' of brait. When we got the boat it came with a Delta, which I liked OK, but it was a bit small. Never had any issues with chain twist. No swivel.



Two years ago upgraded to a rocna. Almost immediately began to get twist, bad enough to bind the chain in the gypsy.



I pulled out the chain and straightened it on the dock multiple times, which helped for a little while, but after two or three anchorings it would twist again. My grooved bow roller wore through at this same time, and being in the Bahamas I replaced it with the only roller I could find; one made for a boat trailer with no groove. Initially, I felt that it was the roller causing the twist, so I replaced it with a really nice, bigger diameter, grooved roller. It didn't help.


I did more thinking on it and realized that a lot of the anchoring that I have been doing is in a tidal creek with a VERY strong reversing current. The boat spins 4 times each day. I think maybe the Delta tended to spin with the boat and the Rocna stays in the bottom which puts a kink in the chain.



I've recently added a Mantus swivel, but haven't had a chance to test it in a big current yet. I'm going to be at a loss if it doesn't work.
 
Thanks Guys for all the helpful responses. I have untwisted the entire length of chain and we do have a swivel, however it is missing a roller. I plan to replace it and get the groove thing going to see if it improves.
 
I don't think there is any way to prevent rode twist with all chain. Nature of the beast.

I have a grooved roller which helps to a point. Eventually the chain will jump out of the groove and cause a twist between the roller and gypsy

Less twist anchoring in deep water since hanging chain with the anchor off the bottom will untwist itself as you retrieve. In shallow water, as the chain gets twisted, I stop retrieving, lift the chain off the gypsy and manually untwist, repeating as necessary.
 
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Jay,

It is good form to bi-annually pull out your entire chain length and lay it out on the dock for maintenance. Check for corrosion, apply marking paint, check for stretched links, etc... and untwist it.



200’ 5/16 chain attached to an 80# Manson Supreme with a swivel that is more work than I intend to do.
 
We anchor 365 days of the year
All chain
No swivel
Can count on 1 hand the times we've had twist in 4 years.

Grooved rollers.
 
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200’ 5/16 chain attached to an 80# Manson Supreme with a swivel that is more work than I intend to do.

It's not that difficult. I have 350' of 5/16" HT chain and a Genuine Bruce 66.

I bring the bow roller over the dock and using my handheld windlass remote, let it out onto the dock, spread the chain out, wash with Clorex and Simple Green, rinse and let dry.

The links are inspected while rinsing.

The rode only require renewing of the paint markings, every 3 to 5 years.

While the chain is drying, I spray Clorex all over the chain locker and rinse with a hose.

To put the rode back, I take the remote to the anchor locker access door in the stateroom and bring the rode in while flaking the chain to avoid an anchor pile.

I reverse the rode every other year to keep wear even.

If you don't take all the salt water encrusted chain out and clean it periodically, you will eventually have a big glob of corroded chain at the bottom of the chain locker.
 
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Our Mainship pilot 30 ii has all chain on the anchor and it seems to twist and bunch up going through the windless. I also have had trouble getting used to all chain and was wondering if 15 feet of chain and the rest rope may solve all my ills. Any knowledge and advice would be appreciated.

Are you revolving around your anchor a lot? This is what I have in my 30 P II up forward:

Windlass – Lewmar V700 (12 VDC)

Anchor - SuperMax model SM15 35-lb

Chain - 195 feet of ¼” G4 chain & Mantus swivel and 100 feet of braided nylon

I never expect to see that nylon and in fact do not particularly like or trust the rope-to-chain splice to run through the windlass properly without assistance - did not when I tried it once before adding MORE chain.

I do not anchor a lot with this boat and so cannot speak to twisted chain on my boat, but after listening to the warnings about the old galvanized double-loop swivels with the dubious connector between the loop, I was into double alloy shackles instead of a swivel, that is until the Mantus swivel arrived on the scene. I needed something to get my SuperMax oriented correctly for retrieval into the slotted pulpit because EVERY time it came up the chain twist had it facing the wrong way, even after disconnecting the chain and flipping it over.

Use a proper D-shaped ANCHOR shackle like a Crosby G-210 which are NOT sold at your average chandlery and definitely not WM.
 
All good advice above. Also check how the chain is piling in its space. It needs some "fall" to pull it out of the windless or it will clog up.

If its new hot dipped chain, it may have zinc flash on it and won't work right till it's exercised a few times to knock the flash off.
 
.

The rode only require renewing of the paint markings, every 3 to 5 years.



I reverse the rode every other year to keep wear even.
.

Wow

We tried the paint markings once.
Paint was gone inside a month.
Galvanising was gone in about 6 mths.
Reversed the chain at the start and we just ended up with rusty chain in the locker and fresh half in the water.

With the new chain we found it better to not reverse the chain leaving the clean stuff in the locker and the rusty stuff in the water.
When it comes up again its shiny due to rubbing through the sand.

Will be buying another length of chain when next out so as we can still anchor while worn chain is off getting regalved.
 
If you hack saw any of your chain, do it on the dock away from your or any other boat. You DO NOT want any of the metal filings on your deck. It gets ugly in a hurry when the filings, which are initially invisible, start rusting. Hard to get rid of.
 
If you are not anchoring in a coral area, 5-20 ft of chain is just fine.

Chain is great where line can be cut , otherwise line may give a more comfortable ride , and is easier to handle.
 
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