Tom and Jackie Hawks Murder

God I cringed when I typed that thread title, but having seen the story it is such a tragedy that has a lesson. It really does make one think when selling anything to put a professional "filter" between you and the buyers. As for the death penalty, maybe it is good for these people to have to sit and think of what they did. But me personally, I don't think the killers lives are worth a .22 short round. I have no doubt there are people on this site who knew this couple. So sad....

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/couple-tied-to-yacht-anchor-thrown-overboard-witness-says/

https://youtu.be/ZgiKfbntndw

https://youtu.be/j5Pf41ofEQ8

something isn't adding up....( based on the second link posted....the Youtube story ) The guy needed $17k for gender re-assignment surgery.....but he presented the victims with a briefcase with $400k+ to purchase the boat ?????

There was no money. He was broke and living in a garage. "Buying" the boat never happened, the Notary Public lied and assisted in forging the documents. There was no briefcase with $485,000 in it.

The ironic part of the whole tragedy is this. What would this idiot want with a half a million dollar boat? He did not have the money to fuel it up after the murder much less the dockage, etc. As for selling it. There is no way any sale could go through with the disappearance of the rightful owners on the radar. Even with his forged documents the bank they went to to collect the victims savings, etc would not turn over a dime until the whole matter was settled.

pete

Pete Meisinger said:

The ironic part of the whole tragedy is this. What would this idiot want with a half a million dollar boat?

Click to expand...

The average IQ is 100. Half the people around you are stupid and too dumb to know it. Some are REALLY stupid. Some are really stupid and think they are smart. Usually they are just annoying as hell, but once in a while they are also evil And that when stuff like this happens.

ahh.....that makes more sense...thanks Pete. I guess that's what I get for multi-tasking too much.

If he had power of attorney for the deceased couple he could have used their funds to pay for operating costs.

That took place in Dana Pt. if I remember correctly. Brutal, sad story, but a good reminder of what Homo Sapiens are capable of.

Frankly I've never understood the opposition to the death penalty for premeditated murder in the commission of a crime.

Ted

O C Diver said:

Frankly I've never understood the opposition to the death penalty for premeditated murder in the commission of a crime.

Ted

Click to expand...

You say that some folks are really stupid and think they are smart. Does anyone here know of someone who fits this description.

oscar said:

The average IQ is 100. Half the people around you are stupid and too dumb to know it. Some are REALLY stupid. Some are really stupid and think they are smart. Usually they are just annoying as hell, but once in a while they are also evil And that when stuff like this happens.

Click to expand...

O C Diver said:

Frankly I've never understood the opposition to the death penalty for premeditated murder in the commission of a crime.

Ted

Click to expand...

One may feel good for the death penalty.

However, on average, a death penalty case costs the tax payers more money than life without the possibility …
Why spend the additional cash on attorneys for the defendant when a lock up for life takes the person off the street permanently. If they die, in most cases the death is more or less painless. Unlike what they typically inflicted.

catalinajack said:

You say that some folks are really stupid and think they are smart. Does anyone here know of someone who fits this description.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to mention any names but tuning in to CNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS,etc. will provide you with a lot of candidates.

Action said:

One may feel good for the death penalty.

However, on average, a death penalty case costs the tax payers more money than life without the possibility …
Why spend the additional cash on attorneys for the defendant when a lock up for life takes the person off the street permanently. If they die, in most cases the death is more or less painless. Unlike what they typically inflicted.

Click to expand...

Because there are some people, who because of their actions, should forfeit their right to walk the earth. Anywhere...

And now because of their actions will cost the tax payers more than the cost of that boat in attorney, court and jail costs. Far exceeding the cost of that boat.

I get the emotion.
I get the want to take revenge or give a penalty that rises to the crime that was convicted.

However NOTHING will reverse the act or past illegal events of the criminal. Nothing!

And over US history, the death penalty has been changed to make that event to be outside of the legal definition of cruel or inhumane punishment. In addition the process to get to that punishment administered is an average that is the better part of two decades. (If the criminal lives that long) With mandatory appeal process paid for by the tax payer. And housing death row inmates costing more than a non-death row inmate. Like a million dollars more per inmate on average. It isn't worth it in my opinion for a human that commits that kind of act.

https://www.thebalance.com/comparing-the-costs-of-death-penalty-vs-life-in-prison-4689874

I get the emotion. And I have never been exposed on any level to being a victim of that type of crime in that magnitude. Maybe my opinion would be different if I had been exposed. However I do not wish that on anyone.

But in this day of government over spending and public debt being so expensive …. my opinion is to lock up a capital crimes convict for ever. Stop the court costs and public attorney fees for mandatory appeals. I am tired of paying for that!

Action said:

One may feel good for the death penalty.

However, on average, a death penalty case costs the tax payers more money than life without the possibility …
Why spend the additional cash on attorneys for the defendant when a lock up for life takes the person off the street permanently. If they die, in most cases the death is more or less painless. Unlike what they typically inflicted.

Click to expand...

That speaks to the ridiculous cost of the appeals process put in place by death penalty opponents. A person facing the death penalty should be entitled to 2 automatic appeals (1 state 1 federal). The appeal needs to be filed within 90 days of the verdict. The trial needs to be the next one on that class of docket, beginning 1 year of the previous verdict. The appeals process shouldn't last 3 years. Execution must be within 6 months of final trial verdict.

Ted

O C Diver said:

That speaks to the ridiculous cost of the appeals process put in place by death penalty opponents. A person facing the death penalty should be entitled to 2 automatic appeals (1 state 1 federal). The appeal needs to be filed within 90 days of the verdict. The trial needs to be the next one on that class of docket, beginning 1 year of the previous verdict. The appeals process shouldn't last 3 years. Execution must be within 6 months of final trial verdict.

Ted

Click to expand...

There have been at least 21 people on death row exonerated by DNA evidence who would have been executed on this schedule. I wouldn’t want those deaths on my conscience just to have a speedier appeals process. There are plenty of people I read about that I’d like to see pay the ultimate price for their crimes, but not at the cost of executing the innocent.

oscar said:

The average IQ is 100. Half the people around you are stupid and too dumb to know it. Some are REALLY stupid. Some are really stupid and think they are smart. Usually they are just annoying as hell, but once in a while they are also evil And that when stuff like this happens.

Click to expand...

Evil and/or dumb pretty much covers every single person in prison. Someone who is both, is a really dangerous person to encounter.

The dumber a criminal is, the more dangerous they are. Because, they usually don't act in a rational manner, making their behavior very unpredictable, even to themselves.

catalinajack said:

You say that some folks are really stupid and think they are smart. Does anyone here know of someone who fits this description.

Click to expand...

Is it me? It is, isn't it.

Pure evil exists. I’ve seen it. Dealt with it. Had it seated in the back of my patrol car. Anyone who doubts this is a fool.

angus99 said:

There have been at least 21 people on death row exonerated by DNA evidence who would have been executed on this schedule. I wouldn’t want those deaths on my conscience just to have a speedier appeals process. There are plenty of people I read about that I’d like to see pay the ultimate price for their crimes, but not at the cost of executing the innocent.

Click to expand...

I understand that, no system is perfect. How many of those were convicted of premeditated murder in the commission of a crime? We see far too many police officers killed in the line of duty where there is zero doubt who did it, but the process of final justice is measured in decades.

Unfortunately, some get excused as the appeals process out lives the witnesses. The death penalty serves 2 purposes. It eliminates some who would be repeat offenders and it serves as a deterrent to some considering the same crime. The latter is lost when it takes 20 years for justice and nobody remembers the crime.

Ted

O C Diver said:

The death penalty serves 2 purposes. It eliminates some who would be repeat offenders and it serves as a deterrent to some considering the same crime. The latter is lost when it takes 20 years for justice and nobody remembers the crime.

Ted

Click to expand...

I would suggest that if convicted and the penalty of life without the possibility of parole would serve those same 2 purposes as well.

And in my uneducated opinion the second purpose stated above is rarely a consideration for those that are engaged in that type of activity. Either the thought never crosses their mind because it is a crime of passion or there is a mental defect. Or they believe they will beat the system and the penalty whatever it may be will not apply to them specifically. Which would be a premeditated excuse in their mind. Reality or logic may not be the same consideration as it would be for you, me or anyone else reading this thread.

If that is the case why pay for the added court drama of appeals and high security lock up?

Action said:

I would suggest that if convicted and the penalty of life without the possibility of parole would serve those same 2 purposes as well.

And in my uneducated opinion the second purpose stated above is rarely a consideration for those that are engaged in that type of activity. Either the thought never crosses their mind because it is a crime of passion or there is a mental defect. Or they believe they will beat the system and the penalty whatever it may be will not apply to them specifically. Which would be a premeditated excuse in their mind. Reality or logic may not be the same consideration as it would be for you, me or anyone else reading this thread.

If that is the case why pay for the added court drama of appeals and high security lock up?

Click to expand...

You don't escape the costs of the appeals process when it's life without parole, they're still entitled to it regardless.

Some of the deterrent value is lost when execution aren't public. Personally I feel prison time isn't the deterrent it once was. IMO, prison time measured in days of hard labor would be a better a better deterrent.

Ted

The appeals process for all inmates is still there. But death row cases cost more to prosecute, cost more to house and cost more for the appeal process than all other inmates to the tune of a million + dollars. From that article …..

"A Susquehanna University report found that, on average, across all 50 states, a death row inmate costs $1.12 million more than a general population inmate.6
 In July 2018, there were 2,738 inmates on death row.7 That's almost $3 billion additional expense than if they had all been sentenced to life in prison instead."

In the end, all of those inmates are off the street anyway. I would rather have the three billion go to a cause of law abiding people. (pick your cause) Versus defending & housing the guilty.

Codger2 said:

I'm not going to mention any names but tuning in to CNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS,etc. will provide you with a lot of candidates.

Click to expand...

Be careful, don't sail off the edge!

oscar said:

The average IQ is 100. Half the people around you are stupid and too dumb to know it. Some are REALLY stupid. Some are really stupid and think they are smart. Usually they are just annoying as hell, but once in a while they are also evil And that when stuff like this happens.

Click to expand...

My mother always said, "Everyone is queer (as in odd, not other) but thee and me, and even thee is a bit peculiar."

That's a tough way to avoid a boat broker's fee.

From personal experience anyone who believes in life w/o parole in prison should hurry on down to their States prison system and sign up. Then tell me how you would deal with someone who has no hope of getting out and who has nothing to lose.
Normal people have absolutely no idea how a criminal justice system works. Or doesn't work.
I know that 90% of the ones in prison are just like you and me. Only they did something illegal often enough to get caught and convicted. The other 10% are the P.O.S and mental cases. And sometimes not a lot of difference between the two.

O C Diver said:

You don't escape the costs of the appeals process when it's life without parole, they're still entitled to it regardless.

Some of the deterrent value is lost when execution aren't public. Personally I feel prison time isn't the deterrent it once was. IMO, prison time measured in days of hard labor would be a better a better deterrent.

Ted

Click to expand...

The problem with prison as a deterrent is that a lot of inmates, are basically in and out of the prison system their entire lives. It is not the horrible shock to their lives to go in again for a while, that it would be to someone who was a law abiding taxpayer his whole life.

It is their second life, and their second home, and while they try to avoid it, they don't fear it like we would.

Solly said:

I know that 90% of the ones in prison are just like you and me. Only they did something illegal often enough to get caught and convicted. The other 10% are the P.O.S and mental cases. And sometimes not a lot of difference between the two.

Click to expand...

From a lifetime in criminal justice, I would say you have the numbers exactly backwards. Ten percent are probably normal people who screwed up. The other ninety per cent, are sociopaths, and mostly career criminals, with lengthy rap sheets (their paperwork, as they call it in prison). They actually use their rap and charge sheets as their bona fides when going back in.

The biggest misconception regular citizens have about those ninety per centers, is that they want a different life. They'll tell the parole board they do, but they are usually lifetime manipulators of the people around them. It's all they know. I've interviewed thousands of them, and you have to accept that for career criminals. Because, it is not only their career, it's their lifestyle and culture.

And, yes, usually because of how they were raised, and the values (or lack thereof) that were imparted to them from an early age. But, that doesn't change what, and who, they are as adults.

Please note the details in the publication referenced

Originally published November 10, 2006

This story has dust 13+ years of dust on it.

The other ninety per cent, are sociopaths, and mostly career criminals, with lengthy rap sheets (their paperwork, as they call it in prison). They actually use their rap and charge sheets as their bona fides when going back in.

The biggest misconception regular citizens have about those ninety per centers, is that they want a different life. They'll tell the parole board they do, but they are usually lifetime manipulators of the people around them. It's all they know. I've interviewed thousands of them, and you have to accept that for career criminals. Because, it is not only their career, it's their lifestyle and culture.

And, yes, usually because of how they were raised, and the values (or lack thereof) that were imparted to them from an early age. But, that doesn't change what, and who, they are as adults.

Click to expand...

I would agree. The public, in general, is very naive. The 90% You referenced have no value to a society. They are takers...professional manipulators, who would not feel one iota or tinge of remorse or guilt for anything they do, up to killing someone. There are sheep and there are sheep-dogs. One knows the wolves are intent on only one thing.

A few posts have been edited and the thread is on the edge of being closed. It there are social issues that are the problem, discuss it somewhere else please. This is a boating forum. Thanks for understanding.