Foredeck cleat vs bollard for anchoring

I'm currently in the process of re-doing my ground tackle this winter. Old windlass is off the boat, etc. New Maxwell HRC10-8 in the garage waiting for install. But now I've got a few details to figure out. I need to install a cleat or bollard of some form as a point to secure the anchor rode.

This cleat / bollard will mount on top of the pulpit, which gives me an issue with just using a big cleat. All of the suitable size cleats I've looked at that match my existing ones use 5/16" bolts. The pulpit plus reinforced section of deck under it is just under 7 inches thick. Nobody makes a 5/16" bolt that long, it seems, so I'd be forced to mount the cleat just to the pulpit before bolting it back onto the boat (it'll be removed for part of the re-work).

So I'm thinking, what about a samson post / bollard like this? https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?name=white-water-marine-large-mooring-bitt&path=-1|2259971|2259988&id=3707393

It would be mounted on top of the pulpit, so going through a 1/2" layer of teak, some fiberglass, more wood, then a 2-ish inch thick section of deck (there's a thick layer of extra coring under the pulpit area) with a large backing plate. I'd expect that kind of mounting thickness would be sufficient to handle the increased leverage from the line attaching to a bollard higher off the deck. That bollard mounts with 1/2" bolts, which I can easily get in 8 inch length, allowing it to mount all the way through (which the windlass also will in addition to the other bolts holding the pulpit to the deck).

What does everyone think would be the better solution? Keep in mind, this setup is only for anchoring, not dock lines. There are already a pair of cleats outboard of the pulpit for dock lines. A picture of the pulpit with the old windlass removed is attached for reference.

5/16 stainless threaded rod came to mind

Soo-Valley said:

5/16 stainless threaded rod came to mind

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I had that thought as well, but how would I handle that at the top end on a cleat that's meant to accept a flat or oval head machine screw into a counter-sunk recess?

I like the bollard. More surface area at the base; good when there is compressible wood. But, is chain going to be an issue too ?

In terms of chain, the plan is 75 feet of chain (5/16" G4) backed by 300 feet of 5/8" 8 plait. So it would be fairly rare that I'd be anchoring somewhere shallow enough to not have some line out. And if I do end up in that situation, I'd be using a snubber, so I'd still be tying off line, although I could take chain around the bollard as a backup in that situation.

Greetings,
Mr. rs. "...how would I handle that at the top end..." Several options IMO. Large SS washer with acorn nut. 5/16 nut welded on end of threaded rod with underside of nut machined to match counter sunk taper. Thick SS washer welded on rod and cleat taper filled with JB Weld. Any welding might be applied over full then machined to a nice finish.

What was being used before, the bow cleats to either side? Those would make a good snubber tie-offs.

caltexflanc said:

What was being used before, the bow cleats to either side? Those would make a good snubber tie-offs.

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Yup, I was typically bridling to the bow cleats on other side. In light weather, I'd let the windlass hold the line (the old powerwinch had a solenoid driven pawl lock setup on the output shaft to permit this without the load being transmitted through the geartrain and motor, but I didn't trust it in more than light wind).

However, the boat sails a good bit at anchor, even a little more with the lines attached further aft at the deck cleats rather than out on the roller. So having to bridle every time proved to be an annoyance with no benefit, and if we yawed too far, the bridle lines would sometimes become a chafe concern where the pulpit meets the forward part of the hull.

The whole original anchoring setup was a bit under-sized and under-thought on this boat, unfortunately. And now that it's being used for more than a lunch hook, it's time to fix that. Fortunately the structural bits were made strong enough even though the windlass was wimpy, couldn't handle chain and no good tie-off point was provided.

You might contemplate simply drilling for larger bolts 5/16 would scare me.


Bronze carriage bolts have smooth heads .

I don’t see any reason not to use the 1/2” bolts. Much simpler than threaded rod. Certainly strong enough.

Comodave said:

I don’t see any reason not to use the 1/2” bolts. Much simpler than threaded rod. Certainly strong enough.

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That and the point about wood being compressible is pushing me towards the bollard. There's not enough meat in the cleat bases to drill the holes much without causing a strength concern, being that I'd be using herreshoff style cleats like what the boat already has.

If I go with the bollard, the biggest thing will be to sit down with the bollard and windlass and figure out the bollard's exact placement so it doesn't get in the way of line leading off the windlass but also doesn't put the line at a significant angle coming off the roller. A cleat would solve that, as the line would simply pass over the top of it while not tied off.

U will have to solve some interference issues.
Maybe the wildcat is to port of center, the chain stopper is centerline and forward and the post center is stb of c/l. Keeping the post port side of the tube at c/l.
U dont want post ear collision with chain when tight when made fast with wildcat, although the usual case is to use the chain stopper.

I'm figuring I'd mount the bollard with the arms facing front to back, as that would give the least interference and would put the wide dimension of the backing plate in the most loaded direction.

Doing that, I should only have to go a little off center with both items to get enough clearance.

Due to the height of the wildcat on this windlass (chain enters it about 6.5" above the deck), I'm planning to skip the chain stopper. Typically I'll be anchored with some amount of line out, so the chain stopper wouldn't be useful as a backup there anyway. And using a piece of line from the anchor shackle to the bollard to hold the anchor in position when stowed is easy enough.

Mr. Overkill here.

First of all, most thread rod (all thread) is mediocre quality at best. Try to find some that isn't made in China, has a hardness rating, and stretch and shear ratings. Rod couplings are better, but not high quality fasteners either.

Lets start with what this cleat / bollard is supposed to do. When you screw up, and are hanging on for dear life in 50 knot winds, getting beaten like a bad stepchild, preying the anchor doesn't pull out, isn't the time to wish you had used bigger better bolts.

What is your windlass attached with?

While I'm not opposed to the bollard, I prefer the cleat as it lowers the pulling force, making the issue shear strength of the hardware. If you choose the bollard, bring the line first around the post as close to the base plate as possible to reduce leverage.

Backing plates are key in the situations. For the cleat, I would consider 2 stainless plates, one underneath everything and the other between the cleat and the wood pulpit. The one under the cleat can be corner rounded, buffed and polished to match the cleat. Both plates, if of an appropriate size, will keep the wood and coring from compressing. I would upsize the cleat till you get atleast 3/8" hardware that doesn't require cobbling.

That's my opinion anyway; worth what you paid for it.

Ted

Yeah, a cleat with top plate certainly works too. It sits lower, somewhat an advantage.
Big pro for the post is it allows more than one heavy line. Or even a chain and a line. Useful for a Bahamian moor or the like. And built in top plate. Both can work.
I have done a lot of double anchor drops at the bow due to tidal currents , but that may not be a rqmt here.

rslifkin said:

...However, the boat sails a good bit at anchor...

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Our boat used to swing something awful with 30' of chain and a nylon rope rode. Yours might swing a bit less with 75' of chain, but in deep anchorages and a lot of rode out it might still be a problem.

Have you read about riding sails?

Our boat used to yo-yo and swing horribly. When the boat was driven downwind it would hit the end of the rode, load the anchor, and stretch the rode out. When it bounced back up wind as the stretch came out of the rode, the boat would fall off the wind near the apex of the bounce, go abeam to the wind, and be driven downwind again for another shock load on the anchor, another rode stretch, and another yo-yo bounce back upwind to do it all over again.

See photo in link below of our riding sail. Problem solved with a simple/cheap solution. Keeps the bow into the wind so it can't fall off one way or the other, and keeps shock loads on the anchor to a minimum. Boat still swings a bit, but no more of those downwind romps and massive bounce backs on a shock loaded anchor and rode. Chafe at the anchor roller also reduced.

Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Steady Sails...Do they work?

Sampson post. A bollard is on the hard.

I have a sampson post and like the big size of it. Easy to tighten the rope and use it to tighten the chain while underway so to be sure the anchor will not go loose.

L

I agree with those folks who are concerned about the small size of 5/16 bolts (or threaded rod). I ran the numbers and in 70000 psi stainless, with a minor thread diameter of about .245" it would break at about 3300 lbs. Definitely not enough for anchor gear.


edit - as an FYI, McMaster has 316 stainless bolts 5/16 up to 10" long. 1/2" up to 14" long. A 1/2" bolt at 70000 psi gets you up to almost 9000lbs breaking strength.


Ken

Buy high strength SS rod , thread the ends. If you want to use a cleat then have the tops welded and polished

I'd love to rig a riding sail, but I have no mast or anything to rig one from. For windy days where we sail exactly as Murray described, I'm thinking of dropping a drogue off the bow or doing a hammerlock Moor with a second anchor dropped under the bow at short scope to reduce the yaw.

Based on fastener strength concerns, it sounds like the answer is bollard with the nice big 1/2 inch bolts. I was avoiding calling it a samson post because it wouldn't be tied down to the keel.

We are talking about a 38 ' boat here aren't we? This is totally over the top. The windlass, when installed, will have a decent cleat attached to it, which will be completely adequate.

Sampson post also allows you to run a warp port or starboard and direct it to wrap it around your horizontal capstan, to control the bow in heavy cross winds. Placement takes some finagling trying to consider rope rode, chain rode, p&s warping.

I installed one that looked the same as yours on my sport boat in the Persian Gulf. When I built the boat I had the builder glass in another layer of plywood behind it, so was completely encapsulated. Ran bedding material inside each of the 4 holes drilled as well.

Remember that Sampson's with heavy load on a fiberglass deck can work a bit so lots of flexible bedding material will go towards the long life of the wood underneath.

Plus they look really cool.

koliver said:

We are talking about a 38 ' boat here aren't we? This is totally over the top. The windlass, when installed, will have a decent cleat attached to it, which will be completely adequate.

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The Maxwell windlass I'm using doesn't include a cleat unfortunately. But yes, 38 foot boat, about 26k lbs fully loaded.

I like the thought of using the samson post to direct a line to the warping drum if ever needed. I'll have to see if I can come up with a placement for it that allow for that. Initially I was going to buy the windlass without the drum, but the version with it ended up being cheaper.

As far as load, the deck has an extra inch of core in this area, so by the time the bolts go through the pulpit and deck, it's about 7 inches. That should handle the side loads well I'd expect, given proper bedding up top. Basically it's going through a half inch of teak, a layer of glass, more wood (which will likely be replaced while I have the pulpit off, so exact material is to be determined), then the deck, so glass, about 2 inches of core, more glass, then I'll be adding an epoxied on stainless backing plate.

A sampson post would require a much larger, stronger gauge backing plate, and stronger bolts (per previous discussions) because of the significant increased turning moment pressure vs the deck level cleat. The turning force at the top of an 18 inch post can be calculated (not by me!) and will tend to pull the inboard end of the post out of the deck. I second the use of the sampson post vs the cleat from a utility standpoint but question how well it will be installed.

The post I'm looking at is only about 7 inches tall above the deck and has the bitts about 4.5 - 5 inches above the deck. So there's definitely more leverage than a cleat, but it shouldn't be an unmanageable amount.

Backing plate wise, I'm tempted to just make a single, large (1 sq ft or a bit more) backing plate that holds the pulpit bolts (originally just backed with washers), windlass bolts and bolts for the samson post. That plus the deck thickness in that area and having it all mounted through the pulpit should spread the load enough I'd expect.

I also intend to mount the post so that the anchoring loads would be in line with the longer dimension of the base plate, which should help to reduce stress on the bolts as well as better spread the loads into the pulpit from the base plate.

Here's how I solved a similar issue...

The last photo is how my boat was equipped when I bought her.

I added a windlass and cleat mounted on 1/4" polished stainless plate secured with 1/2" threaded rods (cut off after the photo was taken). The chain tube is stainless steel sheet rolled and welded.

The top polished SS plate has large 1/2" nuts welded to the bottom to receive the threaded rods. Shallow holes were drilled in the top of pulpit to accommodate those nuts so the plate would lie flat on the teak.

The forward backing plate with the chain tube is for the pulpit and the aft backing plate is for the sampson post.

FlyWright said:

Here's how I solved a similar issue...

The last photo is how my boat was equipped when I bought her.

I added a windlass and cleat mounted on 1/4" polished stainless plate secured with 1/2" threaded rods (cut off after the photo was taken). The chain tube is stainless steel sheet rolled and welded.

The top polished SS plate has large 1/2" nuts welded to the bottom to receive the threaded rods. Shallow holes were drilled in the top of pulpit to accommodate those nuts so the plate would lie flat on the teak.

The forward backing plate with the chain tube is for the pulpit and the aft backing plate is for the sampson post.

Click to expand...

That’s one clean anchor chain, Al! Did you use a toothbrush?

If you were tying off to the cleats on the side of the pulpit, and they were sufficient, I think you may be over thinking this.

If all of this consternation is because the cleat you want only accepts a 5/16" bolt, I think I'd weld the cleat to a top plate and then bolt that to the pulpit with whatever size bolt lets you sleep well.