Twin diesels vs. single on a Mainship

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Agreed. On a nautical mile per gallon my Twin Comanche does as well as my Cessna 182.

With respect to training there is no question that you have to remain sharp when piloting a multi-engine aircraft. I’ve had three engine out situations in a Twin and all ended well at an airport. In my opinion, a Twin is much more dangerous in the initial climb phase. An engine failure in the first thousand feet or so has to be handled quickly and correctly as loss of control is likely going to lead to a fatality. This is where comparing boats and planes are like Apples and Oranges.

Twins are likely to be flown in poor weather and at night when the inherent risk of flight is higher. Much of the increased fatal rate of Twins can be attributed to the missions they are expected to perform. I suppose there is a valid argument that some missions on the water favor a multi-engine craft. Of course, some of the largest ships in the world, container ships, run on a single.

The decision to use a single versus twin engine vessel comes down to an individual choice. If you are operating in a near coast environment with towing assets readily available then a single is an obvious choice. If you are operating in the ocean off the Pacific Coast of Baja perhaps the choice is more difficult.


Interesting talk about planes. Overall a twin engine plane is more expensive to run that its counterpart twin, unlike a boat. Some do well like your Twin Commanche. And the 182 is not very efficient. But a lot has to do with speed. My old B55 Baron would use about the same fuel or less than the Twin Commanche if flown at the same speed and payload, and the Bonanza is more efficient that either of them.



But a different animal if your plane croaks an engine. Can't just throw the anchor out.
 
Yes, loss of propulsion does happen. We lost propulsion twice last year doing the loop. Our second engine was a godsend. The second time was in Pelican Bay near Ft, Myers. Had we needed to be towed, it would have been 25 miles at about 3mph, on CHRISTMAS EVE! And if one is boating in the wilds of Canada (North Channel, Georgian Bay), distances to ports of refuge are quite long. Plus, getting a tow is not easy as well and EXPENSIVE. So, yes, it is a valid concern for me so much so that I would never cruise to remote locations with a single. Yes, I know, many passagemakers have only singles. I don't care. I want my twins.
I am blown away by the overwhelming need to require a 'spare' engine in a diesel powered boat. Do they really fail that often that this should be a valid concern? I would never have considered this an argument for twins.
 
Most of the twin/single potential discussion has never been done as most all twin engined boats have a lot more power than the single. Since builders usually installed 120hp Ford Lehman engines twins usually had twice as much power.

If you really want to have an honest and revealing discussion on the merits of each one would need to discuss boats all with the same amount of total power. Comparing 120hp singles w 240hp twins leaves some issues open for discussion like servicing space. But it may likely be way different w a GB32 that had two 60hp engines v/s a GB32 w one 120hp engine.

So a comparison of the real advantages and disadvantages of twins and singles would require that they had a total of the same power. Never been done on TF. All the comparisons on TF have been comparing boats w half and twice the power. A good example is comparing a GB36 w a single engine and one w twins. But for the most part you’re not comparing twins and singles but 120hp boats and 240hp boats.

That’s where the bogus notion that singles are more efficient that twins comes from. There’s hardly any difference at all. And in a given comparison elements not related to the number of engines will probably swing the results which ever way they go.
 
On the passagemakers having singles thing, that doesn't bother me as much as a single in a coastal cruiser. Losing propulsion when you're 100+ miles from anything you could hit isn't an immediately critical situation unless you're in bad weather. You've got time to figure out what's going on, let things cool a little, make some repairs, etc.

In closer to shore with much less sea room, more traffic, etc. then sudden loss of power could be a bigger issue, so being able to retain maneuverability during the event can make life much, much easier.

Thinking about it, having twins may have saved me from needing to dive last year. I sucked up some weeds (in both engine intakes) somewhere in the Erie Canal. Didn't notice right away, as things were still cooling fine at the 1300 rpm I was turning for most of that day. But as soon as I asked for a little more power, both engines started to heat up a bit. So I shut one down, ran on one engine for a few minutes to let some water flow over the other intake (scoop type strainer intakes), then switched engines. After this, flow was better, but not quite normal. So I gave both a blast of hard reverse, then repeated the exercise and then cleaned out stuff that had been dislodged into the strainers. After that, cooling was back to normal.

Twins do gain redundancy on items beyond the basic engine itself too. On a single, alternator failure means you're now relying on the generator (if equipped) for 12v power, as the engine isn't producing any. With a twin, you've lost 50% of your 12v power source (and can still start the generator if needed), but you still have power. Depending on where you are, what parts you have on hand and when / how easily you can get parts, that can make a big difference.

Same story if you ding a prop on something significant. Assuming you're not equipped for an on-the-spot switch to the spare(s), the single leaves you limping very slowly or being towed to the closest possible spot to get it taken care of. The twin would let you limp along on your own terms for repair.

Of course, as others have pointed out, in many cases, the boat dictates the choice of twin or single. And even if you have the choice, sometimes the equipment layout or choice of engines, etc. makes the choice obvious regardless of which you'd prefer. And as Willy points out, it's rare that builders really optimized when going to twins and they often just stuck a second of the same in there instead of going with 2 smaller engines (assuming the single was already well powered).

Along those same lines, there are some cases where a single just wouldn't make sense. In most faster boats, a single would start to become very large to get enough power. My boat, for example, has 2x 340hp engines. So for similar performance from a single, you'd be looking at something close to a 700hp engine. That would force the boat to be diesel as a start (no available gas engines with adequate durability at that output). But the bigger issue would be fitting that monster in the engine room. It would likely be an issue height-wise. And with it being that big, you'd be blocking a lot of the main bilge area, making it harder to clean, harder to access pumps, etc. So while engine access may get a little better, overall systems access likely wouldn't. You'd just have more dead space out at the sides of the engine room.
 
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Interesting talk about planes. Overall a twin engine plane is more expensive to run that its counterpart twin, unlike a boat. Some do well like your Twin Commanche. And the 182 is not very efficient. But a lot has to do with speed. My old B55 Baron would use about the same fuel or less than the Twin Commanche if flown at the same speed and payload, and the Bonanza is more efficient that either of them.



But a different animal if your plane croaks an engine. Can't just throw the anchor out.

But you can pull a parachute....which adds SIGNIFICANT cost to the operation of the plane....I think $15000 every 5 years?
 
Interesting talk about planes. Overall a twin engine plane is more expensive to run that its counterpart twin, unlike a boat. Some do well like your Twin Commanche. And the 182 is not very efficient. But a lot has to do with speed. My old B55 Baron would use about the same fuel or less than the Twin Commanche if flown at the same speed and payload, and the Bonanza is more efficient that either of them.



But a different animal if your plane croaks an engine. Can't just throw the anchor out.


Of course, all twin planes are not created equal. Some, with an engine failure, fly you right to the crash site.



Now back to your originally scheduled Twin/Single debate.


I'm enjoying reading all of this. Not to far from having to make that decision myself....


Thanks for all the info guys/gals.
 
There is one thing nobody is mentioning here....and that is TIME!!! The reason I "cruise" in large-ish planing powerboats is because I am still working and don't have a lot of time. So when I do have time, I want to cover some ground. There are trips we do that I likely would not even attempt if I had a 7 knot boat....simply because I don't have the time. The speed of the boat provides me "access". And to me, "access" is extremely important....otherwise you are sitting at the dock wishing you were out there doing something but don't have the time to do it.

If this resonates with the OP, I would highly recommend a boat with some speed. I would also highly recommend the consideration of something other than a Mainship....none of which go fast with any efficiency(except the Pilots...which have limited living space). I just bought a Meridian 411 with twin Cummins 450Cs. It has a surprising amount of interior space ofr a Sedan of its size. It has a huge flybridge. It has a huge engine room(second only to a Defever) for its size. And while it ain't the prettiest boat on earth, it certainly isn't ugly. So that is my solution to cruising in my life right now. And if you ask anyone in my marina or in my area, they would tell you I use my boat more than anyone they know. The reason for that is that I have...."access"....to more things because of speed.
My outgoing Carver gets slightly better than 1mpg at 17 knots. The incoming Meridian gets slightly less than 1mpg at 20 knots. I have even heard that this boat with the bigger C series engines gets better mileage than the smaller B series....back to the more engines/power are more efficient argument. These things are barely breaking a sweat at 20knots(2000-2100rpms). Anyway, I love the boat......and the outgoing Carver is for sale!!!
 
Yes, loss of propulsion does happen. We lost propulsion twice last year doing the loop. Our second engine was a godsend. The second time was in Pelican Bay near Ft, Myers. Had we needed to be towed, it would have been 25 miles at about 3mph, on CHRISTMAS EVE!

What was the reason your engines went down?
 
The video I posted on page 1 of this thread was an attempt at humor. Both sides of the twin/single debate tend to be passionate about their choice. I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer. I think the answer is that it depends. It depends on the owner as well as the mission.
 
The video I posted on page 1 of this thread was an attempt at humor. Both sides of the twin/single debate tend to be passionate about their choice. I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer. I think the answer is that it depends. It depends on the owner as well as the mission.

I think everyone on this thread has been pretty straight up and honest. It does depend on the mission. It also depends on risk tolerance....and many other things. If I was cruising in retirement and not open ocean passagemaking, I would go single with bow thruster.
 
My father flew the four-engine B-17 bomber (was shot down over Germany), but statistically would have been better off in a two-engine B-25. Can't remember the name of the air field/museum in England, but glass etchings of US planes lost in Europe WW2 had lots more heavy bombers compared to mediums.
 
I'm constantly amazed by some comments about twin vs single engine. The common refrain is maneuverability and redundancy. A good boat handler can do anything with a single engine that you can do with two and proper maintenance and a little knowledge are all that's needed to avoid the expense and complexity of twins.
 
I'm constantly amazed by some comments about twin vs single engine. The common refrain is maneuverability and redundancy. A good boat handler can do anything with a single engine that you can do with two and proper maintenance and a little knowledge are all that's needed to avoid the expense and complexity of twins.

I mostly agree. My first trawler was single engine and no Bow thruster. It made me a very good boat handler. Next boat was single and bow thruster. I could do anything with that boat. Next boat was twins. I learned an entirely new way to handle a boat. New boat is twins with both bow and stern thrusters. I’m not really sure what the he’ll to do with all that maneuverability. Almost too many damn controls!!! I guess I’ll get it figured out.
 
There is one thing nobody is mentioning here....and that is TIME!!! !
That's a very big item on my list of wants in a boat. Not because I am working but because it allows me to cruise with a smaller weather window. (Speed!) Not to mention that I can adjust my speed in a chop for a smoother ride. I have had both trawler and planing boats and I must admit to watching the water fly by at 15-17 knots is really satisfying.
 

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I'm constantly amazed by some comments about twin vs single engine. The common refrain is maneuverability and redundancy. A good boat handler can do anything with a single engine that you can do with two and proper maintenance and a little knowledge are all that's needed to avoid the expense and complexity of twins.

I mostly agree. In my younger years I sailed. I single handed a fair amount and for a time had a sailboat with a less than reliable engine. I suspect many here were sailors at some point so you understand docking a vessel under sail in a slip without a functioning engine can be a handful. You learn a lot about boat handling, winds, and current. :eek:

I’m older now, and have no desire to repeat the moves needed to achieve the sailing maneuvers of my youth. I can single hand my 42 GB into the slip with minimal fuss. A single with a bow thruster would be easy as well but you don’t find them nearly as readily as you do with twins. For me, the twin was available and met my needs.
 
That's a very big item on my list of wants in a boat. Not because I am working but because it allows me to cruise with a smaller weather window. (Speed!) Not to mention that I can adjust my speed in a chop for a smoother ride. I have had both trawler and planing boats and I must admit to watching the water fly by at 15-17 knots is really satisfying.

I gotta admit, Walt, there is something satisfying about keeping our friends in the petrochemical industry employed :lol: :facepalm: :lol: :facepalm:

I will sincerely admit, I do get satisfaction in the operation of the machinery...likely my pilot roots. Complicated docking situations don't cause me anxiety....I like the challenge. I have done some pretty crazy stuff...not dangerous, just ....."imaginative"...hahaha!!! I will also admit on this new boat, the turbos are very "vocal" and I get a charge(see what I did there) hearing them spool up and idle down. I can hear them maneuver around the dock....sounds like a big rig. Anyway...sorry for the thread drift! In the end....like someone said...buy the boat that is best for the mission/application. Sadly most people don't know the mission or application. They get bogged down by emotion or what other people think. If I didn't need/want speed, I would go single engine all the way....unless I would be operating in remote locations.
 
I'm constantly amazed by some comments about twin vs single engine. The common refrain is maneuverability and redundancy. A good boat handler can do anything with a single engine that you can do with two and proper maintenance and a little knowledge are all that's needed to avoid the expense and complexity of twins.

The superior tone of this post is exactly what makes these discussions get out of hand.

On top of that, you are just flat out incorrect.

Yes, a very experienced, very good single engine boat handler can do almost all of the things you can do in a twin. But to say that they can do everything a twin can do is a stretch. I've been on the water my entire life and hold a 50 ton masters license. I was a fishing guide for 13 years. I'm a good boat handler. I'll be ok in most spots with a single. But put me in a tight situation with high winds or current to deal with and I would much rather be in a twin. Any experienced boat handler who is being honest would. They just handle better. It is not debatable.

Engines break down. Perfectly maintained motors run by people with decades of knowledge sometimes fail unexpectedly. Navy vessels and tow boats and professional watermen's motors sometimes fail. Multi million dollar yachts with full time engineers breakdown. Very naive to believe otherwise. Not everyone always uses their boats in areas where tows are readily available.

Now, as has been discussed quite civilly and intelligently in this thread until your post, there are very valid reasons that a single is the right choice for quite a few people. Singles have well documented downsides as well. There are also equally valid reasons that a twin is the right way to go for many people, but twins have some costs associated with their advantages.


Your way may be the right way for you but that in no way means it's right for everyone, or even most people.
 
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The superior tone of this post is exactly what makes these discussions get out of hand.

On top of that, you are just flat out incorrect.

Yes, a very experienced, very good single engine boat handler can do almost all of the things you can do in a twin. But to say that they can do everything a twin can do is a stretch. I've been on the water my entire life and hold a 50 ton masters license. I was a fishing guide for 13 years. I'm a good boat handler. I'll be ok in most spots with a single. But put me in a tight situation with high winds or current to deal with and I would much rather be in a twin. Any experienced boat handler who is being honest would. They just handle better. It is not debatable.

Engines break down. Perfectly maintained motors run by people with decades of knowledge sometimes fail unexpectedly. Navy vessels and tow boats and professional watermen's motors sometimes fail. Multi million dollar yachts with full time engineers breakdown. Very naive to believe otherwise. Not everyone always uses their boats in areas where tows are readily available.

Now, as has been discussed quite civilly and intelligently in this thread until your post, there are very valid reasons that a single is the right choice for quite a few people. Singles have well documented downsides as well. There are also equally valid reasons that a twin is the right way to go for many people, but twins have some costs associated with their advantages.


Your way may be the right way for you but that in no way means it's right for everyone, or even most people.


"superior tone"? Well yes I guess it was but as has been said "if the shoe fits" and yes I can and have done all with a single screw boat that that I can with a twin, that apparently offends you in some way, good. It may be of some utility for you to contemplate that if I can do it you can too and if you can't then I suppose that makes me what? You got it.
 
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If I didn't need/want speed, I would go single engine all the way....unless I would be operating in remote locations.

Interesting statement Baker. Remote cruising is vastly different with individual risk tolerances tending to dictate boat type, owner/crew aptitude and desired on board redundancy systems.

Which brings to mind a commercial fishing guy I was talking with in Hoonah. He said that fishing keeps him in remote areas, but not far from a buddy who likely has the spare parts he may be looking for. Buddy boating to the extreme but it works.
 
DriveSaver prop coupler fractured. Same thing happened on the other side in Lock 6 of the 8-lock stairsteps in downtown Ottawa. Without a second engine I would have crashed into the forward door of the lock. Twins are my friend. As far as extra mainrenance, let me see: an oil change every year or two, oil coolers every 10 years or so, maybe a heat exchanger in 20 years, impellers. Not a big deal in my view. As for those DriveSavers, they are gone. I will never have them in a boat again and, no I did not hit anything.
What was the reason your engines went down?
 
CJ
IMHO, most drive savers are like hoses - throw away and replace items. Age and or improper torquing can do them in. A few years ago we were at the docks as a KK 42 ghosted in, his drive saver crapped out 100' from the dock.
 
? Well yes I guess it was but as has been said "if the shoe fits" and yes I can and have done all with a single screw boat that I can with a twin.

Please send us a video of you doing multiple revolutions of your single turning in its own length!! I know what he is getting at. And no YOU can’t do everything with a single that you can do with a twin. You might be able to do everything you need to operate the boat. But you certainly can’t turn it in it’s own length. Like you can a twin. And that alone makes the twin more maneuverable.
 
"superior tone"? Well yes I guess it was but as has been said "if the shoe fits" and yes I can and have done all with a single screw boat that that I can with a twin, that apparently offends you in some way, good. It may be of some utility for you to contemplate that if I can do it you can too and if you can't then I suppose that makes me what? You got it.

Lol.
 
Please send us a video of you doing multiple revolutions of your single turning in its own length!! I know what he is getting at. And no YOU can’t do everything with a single that you can do with a twin. You might be able to do everything you need to operate the boat. But you certainly can’t turn it in it’s own length. Like you can a twin. And that alone makes the twin more maneuverable.

Anyone that can't back and fill with a single screw should stay in their SUV, there's also all kinds of things like actually knowing how to use springlines correctly or nudging the dock or a piling. As an expert you should know that not all twin screw boats can turn in their own length without thrusters. I'm sure you just forgot that? I can walk and chew gum and I can walk without crutches, I can also operate a boat without crutches as well. It's a shame that stuff like this gets turned into a pissing contest, please don't request video of that.
 

I'll take that as an acknowledgement. Thank you! You only have a 50ton license and thirteen years? I started with a 1600 ton 40 years ago and worked on the water for 15 years before that. Let the pissing begin!!
 
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I'll take that as an acknowledgement. Thank you! You only have a 50ton license and thirteen years? I started with a 1600 ton 40 years ago and worked on the water for 15 years before that. Let the pissing begin!!

Oh goodie, a school yard fight!!!
My license is bigger than your license.
Oh yea?
Ya yea!!

FYI, years ago, I could 'light-off' a submarine nuclear powered steam plant.
These days, it would be unwise to let me heat a kettle of water w/o supervision
 
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I'll take that as an acknowledgement. Thank you! You only have a 50ton license and thirteen years? I started with a 1600 ton 40 years ago and worked on the water for 15 years before that. Let the pissing begin!!




Cool.
 
Anyone that can't back and fill with a single screw should stay in their SUV, there's also all kinds of things like actually knowing how to use springlines correctly or nudging the dock or a piling. As an expert you should know that not all twin screw boats can turn in their own length without thrusters. I'm sure you just forgot that? I can walk and chew gum and I can walk without crutches, I can also operate a boat without crutches as well. It's a shame that stuff like this gets turned into a pissing contest, please don't request video of that.

Yep...you just admitted. You cannot do it! I have owned all configurations. Some are more maneuverable than others. Why you cannot admit that is beyond me. I can back and fill. I can spring ff of a dock. I can nudge a piling. AND I can admit some boats are more maneuverable than others. And YOU are the one that has turned this into a pissing contest. That happens when you act like a know-it-all child.
 
Oh goodie, a school yard fight!!!
My license is bigger than your license.
Oh yea?
Ya yea!!

FYI, years ago, I could 'light-off' a submarine nuclear powered steam plant.
These days, it would be unwise to let me heat a kettle of water w/o supervision

As there seemed to be some disagreement and a license was presented as some form of credential it seemed only appropriate to respond in kind to support my position. Some people say things without applying sufficient thought and a slight correction is needed. There's an old saying " before you run down a blind alley to get into a dogfight it's good to know how big the other dog is". I apologize for not tiptoeing around others delicate sensibilities but I've never been very good at that.
 

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