Tell Me About Wood Boat Maintenance

http://www.pacificmotorboat.com/downloads/Wooden_Hull_Guide_nvic7-95.pdf

PSN - Thanks for the link! I read 90% and placed it in my folder. That was a blast from my past of 1960' and 70's working in New England yards on wood boats! - - Art

Art said:

http://www.pacificmotorboat.com/downloads/Wooden_Hull_Guide_nvic7-95.pdf

PSN - Thanks for the link! I read 90% and placed it in my folder. That was a blast from my past of 1960' and 70's working in New England yards on wood boats! - - Art

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You are welcome ...but be careful...read and experience too much and you may become informed!

Let’s return to the REAL premise of this thread... i.e. The first words on the first post:

Quote: “Tell me about wood boat maintenance. Wooden boat maintenance is something I have zero actual knowledge of.”

Well built/designed wood boats are beautiful and if maintained can last nearly indefinitely. Dito for well built/designed fiberglass boats. BUT – if a person is as requested on first post and mentioned in first words of that post... then it is surely best for said person to not try and care for a wood boat. Correct wood maintenance and repair learning curve is extremely steep compared to fiberglass Simply put, a well built fiberglass boat will be much easier for the new-be boat owner to maintain, to pick-up from poor initial condition, and therefore to have more time enjoying.

Everyone can say what they will – I know from many years of early life experience working with shipwrights in boat yards on wood boats and in large scale new boat builder of both wood and fiberglass boats, as well as having owned wood boats and fiberglass boats... wood boats take more time for keeping them pretty and in good shape than fiberglass boats do.

Nothing against wood boats, I love em and used to live em! And, nothing but truth from personal experience in my comparing wood to fiberglass maintenance. But, Fact Is Fact - - > Fiberglass boats are easier to care for than wood – in most situations. A new-be boat owner could quickly get overcome by the repair/refinishing/restoring/refastening complexities of wood and could then lose the joy of boat ownership which may mean eventual lack of usage... or no usage at all.

Art said:

Let’s return to the REAL premise of this thread... i.e. The first words on the first post:

Quote: “Tell me about wood boat maintenance. Wooden boat maintenance is something I have zero actual knowledge of.”

...if a person is as requested on first post and mentioned in first words of that post... then it is surely best for said person to not try and care for a wood boat. Correct wood maintenance and repair learning curve is extremely steep...

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While I don't completely agree with your "wood boats are always more work to keep up than a glass boat" statement, I do agree with this. Wood boats that need any repair work at all are not for woodworking novices. The other option is to pay for everything to be done, and at today's labor rates the bills will mount up amazingly fast.

The problem with wood boats is they can not be ignored , even for a short while.

The water tight integrity , esp of the top sides and above deck structures must be maintained at 100% at all times.

Wood rots at a certain moisture level, any leak will add and subtract water , so the boat wood will pass thru the rot zone 2x from every leak..

A woodie that is always 100% tight is a constant job , at least looking for leaks if not repairing them.

SOLID GRP hulls ( not Chinese Composite ) will stain inside , and joinery could rot , but the hull structure will not die from lax maint.

Aluminum comes close to a good GRP boat , Steel requires the same constant inspection and instant repair of wood..
Steel has the additional downside of the reality that most will die from the inside , rusting thru to the outside.

The "cure" for steel is at extended periods (15-25years) to remove the interior and wiring and as many systems as you can .
The boat is then sand blasted inside to "water white" (a specification) and 5 to 9 coats of barrier and paint are installed.

Then the wiring and interior are returned.Costly and time consuming ,this used to be a perfect job for the recovering utopias that escaped the Soviet death grip.

With the current administration having its war on energy sources , perhaps the oil patch area will be the next cheap place for steel boat repair.

No hull and deck material is perfect , but solid GRP is the best we have.

Its downside is the requirement for a mold to create everything .
On a woody there is only minor economies from duplication (mostly marketing) so the great diversity of unique boats will be left to the wealthy , and we pilgrims will continue to have cookies,

NO PROBLEM! Some cookies are fantastic ,!

FF

"...we pilgrims will continue to have cookies,

NO PROBLEM! Some cookies are fantastic!

FF[/QUOTE]

I agree with you Fred... some cookies are fantastic!

IMHO - Classic Tollycraft are in the top category of the best cruseing, hooking, and play-time “cookie-boats” afloat!

I've never owned or seen an overall easier to care for or better built craft. Tollycraft Club is cult like in its devotion to Tolly's; and, yup... I’m one of em! There's nothing that won’t be directly answered by Tolly Gurus... and, they are great people to chat with. One Guru named Gordon was Tollycraft’s Executive Purchasing Agent for decades during it manufacturing heyday in 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. When Tolly finally closed in mid to late 90’s he purchased all the manufactured items, spare parts, and documents from the company. He lives just a bit from where Mr. “Tolly” Tollefson lived for years (Tolly passed at 100 yrs. May 13, 2011), they were great friends. Gordo runs a Tolly parts operation and is a champ to talk with!

Of course there are other great manufacturers of classic boats (wood or fiberglass)... But, I’m placing my interest in Tollycraft’s and plan to eventually up-size from our 34’ Tri Cabin Tolly to a 48’ or larger for retired years of much Pacific coast cruising... Mexico to Alaska with San Francisco as home port! Yeah Baby!!

My 2 cents.
My first "large" boat was a Catalina 27 fiberglass sailboat which I bought at an impound auction and totally refit and upgraded, inside and out. The exterior f/g and nonskid repairs took a long time. The boat had some deep "piling rashes." The fairing and gelcoat matching and polishing was time consuming and kind of an art, but it was satisfying and the boat turned out great.

Our current boat is a wood 1971 Grand Banks. And as others have said, they have to be maintained. We bought this boat because I wanted a wood boat, and the hull has perfect. I have almost all the maint records and have talked to 2 of the 3 previous owners. The hull is all original wood. I, like the previous owners kept it in a boathouse, and recently under cover. You have to keep up with the paint, which is pretty easy, and rebed, which is easy. The worst is the acreage of varnished teak. But that would be the same on any boat with exterior teak. For me the most maintenance is the old Cat diesel and systems. Most wood boats tend to be old and so are their systems.

I looked and many wood boats before buying ours and almost bit on a free boat. But as some wise old timer told me; "The most expensive boat you can get is a free one."

Also since wood boats often cost less, their owners often don't put the money into them like they should. When looking, look for "Home Depot" quality materials, they are often a giveaway to cutting corners to save a few pennies. This is true regardless of hull material.

Good luck, if you are in the PNW give me a call I can show you a wood boat. I have an extra paintbrush. And to answer the original question about how much work, I'm too biased to answer that, but my wife would probably say the wood boat is a bit more work, or maybe I just spend more time on the wood boat...

PS
For maintenance and repairs, as Marin says the GB board is great, as is Wooden Boat forum, and the Wooden Boat series of 3 books are priceless
-Bill

Had a 40 ft wood Dufrene, locally built, with twin GM 6V 53's for ONE year.
Decided that I liked boating a lot more than MAINTENANCE.

CCC

Wooden boats seem like living entities compared to the plastic or metal ones. Just like a steam locomotive is more "alive" than the diesel-electric locomotives.

Our harbormaster just bought a 1938 double end fishing boat. Says it's in great condition. If I was to buy a new boat it would be wood or a FG Airex foam cored sandwich hulled boat. You lazy guys can joke all you want about wood boat maint. Wood boats are better and I'm willing to take the extra effort to keep it that way. Remember this fishing boat from Petersburg? It was built in 1950 and is in excellent condition today. Powered by a 3-71 I'd love to have her and would'nt change much converting her to a trawler.

manyboats said:

Our harbormaster just bought a 1938 double end fishing boat. Says it's in great condition. If I was to buy a new boat it would be wood or a FG Airex foam cored sandwich hulled boat. You lazy guys can joke all you want about wood boat maint. Wood boats are better and I'm willing to take the extra effort to keep it that way.

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Eric - In all due respect to you, myself, and all other wood and fiberglass boat owners - - >

From your words - "Wood boats are better..." My question is, better than what... your time, your knuckles, your enjoyment of having more time to sit with feet kicked up on the bait box and a cold one in your hands? The second part of your sentence "... I'm willing to take the extra work to keep it that way." seems self defeating to your premise that "Wood boats are better..." ... how are they better - as long as you work harder, that is?? There have been only one or two posts on this thread where I noticed anyone say that as a boat-in-general fiberglass is superior to wood. Both can be dangerous if not kept in good working condition. Personally, I know from experience that the best built and finest crafted boats I've ever been aboard are wood. And, that well built fiberglass boats can match their build integrity and sea keeping abilities. That said, I also know from many years of past life experience while working in New England boat yards that wood boats are more work in the maintenance category than fiberglass, that is simply the way it is. As you say above - - > “... I'm willing to take the extra work to keep it that way."

So... I don't believe this discussion was ever meant to debate which material makes a better boat; but rather which material needs more hours of maintenance when built as a boat. I think the jury has decided on that question. And, I believe it is obvious that every boat owner has complete right for love to, of, and for their own boat or preferred boat material!

Happy Boating and Cheers! - Art

manyboats said:

Our harbormaster just bought a 1938 double end fishing boat. Says it's in great condition. If I was to buy a new boat it would be wood or a FG Airex foam cored sandwich hulled boat. You lazy guys can joke all you want about wood boat maint. Wood boats are better and I'm willing to take the extra effort to keep it that way.

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When I was a USCG rescue helo pilot I loved wooden boats....

I think fiberglass is superior to wood in some ways, the main one being that fiberglass can hold up under neglect better than wood. A wood boat in not-great condition will most likely require a more and more exacting work to bring it up to snuff than a fiberglass boat in comparable not-great condition, although a fibeglass boat can suffer some of the same problems with wood rot as an all-wood boat.

But once a wood boat IS up to snuff, it does not seem to require any more effort to keep it that way than a similar fiberglass boat. There are a fair number of wood boats-- power and sail-- in our marina, some of which I know get used as much as the well-used fiberglass boats in our marina. And I don't see the owners of these wood boats out performing major surgery on their boats any more than I see the owners of fiberglass boats doing this kind of work. The wood boat owners use and enjoy their boats every bit as much as the fiberglass folks.

They are probably more vigilant about some things than the glass boat people are: fresh water in the bilge, the condition of exterior paint, and so on. But leaky windows on a glass boat are just as problematical and can lead to just as major a problem as leaky windows on a wood boat. This notion of wood boat owners being a perpetural state of "fix" is just not accurate, at least based on what I have seen around us in our marina for the last 13 years.

And I agree with Eric--- a wood boat, or at least most wood boats, are more aesthetic and have more character (if that's important to you) than the typical glass boat, particularly glass production boats which for the most part and in my opinion are fairly butt-ugly (including ours).

If I could afford a new or perfect conditon wood boat of the kind of design I know wood is capable of producing I would choose one over any of the past or present glass production boats with the possible exception of a Fleming. But our budget doesn't permit that, so we have to settle for an older boat. And an older fiberglass boat is more likely to be in pretty good shape and not need much other than cosmetic work than an equally old wood boat that could be looking at a re-caulk, plank and/or fastener replacement, and so on..

Marin, how are your presumed teak decks doing?

39 years old and doing great considering that previous owners oversanded them or used teak restorers on them which removes wood just like sandpaper only it does it chemically. We had the main deck regrooved and reseamed about eleven years ago and it's doing fine. The flying bridge deck is under cover almost all the time and it looks like it did when American Marine installed it. I think teak is the best deck surface there is for good traction wet or dry. In hot climates it can get hot if you boat in bare feet. But up there that's not an issue.

No Marin. Leaky windows on a FG boat are MORE problematic than on a wood boat. Much harder to repair.
Art, Wood boats are
1. Wood boats are stronger or lighter or both.
2. Many parts of a wood boat are easier to repair. Wood boats are an assemblage of parts, most of them not very large. It's handy to remove a part and replace.
3. Wood boats are much quieter. Wood itself is good sound insulation.
4. Wood boats are stiffer
5. Wood is warm and nice to touch.
6. Wood boats can be cheaper to build as custom builds or one off's.
7. Wood boats are easier to change or modify.
8. Wood boats are smoother. Wood absorbs vibration.
9. Wood boats are better looking. Very important in a yacht.

And Art........Thanks for the "due respect".

Eric-- Our windows are quite easy to overhaul but that might be because American Marine used essentially the same wood sill and exterior frame construction they used on the previous wood GBs. The only real differmence is the cabin mold wraps the cabin side into the window opening so the hole itself is framed in solid fiberglass. The window components-- glass, track, and exterior window frame-- mount in or around this fiberglass "box."

Boating is great because it includes so many hobbies.

The woodie folks have loads of fun , as do the "soon as I get ""xxx"" installed I will be underway" hobby folks.

Years and years of endless fun for these folks.

On the other side is the boat is a tool folks , that use the boat for a purpose and try as hard as they can to NOT spend years of effort fixing stuff.

Wooden boats are frequently pretty because with out good looks the effort to keep them afloat would not have been expended.

Cookies must justify the mold cost , 50-100 production hull production /sales require esthetics that can be understood and is not too repulsive to a mass market. Pretty need not apply.

My favorite is a Bright sailboat hull anchored nearby, as I swig a beer in my ex Gov cookie.

FF

manyboats said:

No Marin. Leaky windows on a FG boat are MORE problematic than on a wood boat. Much harder to repair.
Art, Wood boats are
1. Wood boats are stronger or lighter or both.
2. Many parts of a wood boat are easier to repair. Wood boats are an assemblage of parts, most of them not very large. It's handy to remove a part and replace.
3. Wood boats are much quieter. Wood itself is good sound insulation.
4. Wood boats are stiffer
5. Wood is warm and nice to touch.
6. Wood boats can be cheaper to build as custom builds or one off's.
7. Wood boats are easier to change or modify.
8. Wood boats are smoother. Wood absorbs vibration.
9. Wood boats are better looking. Very important in a yacht.

And Art........Thanks for the "due respect".

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Eric - I'd say you are simply in LOVE with wood boats!

Your boat is lucky to have you as its owner and must love you too!

Get It On Man! Any boater who loves boats is a good boater in my Book!

Eric - I'd say you are simply in LOVE with wood boats!

Are you telling me I'm not very objective?
That would be a hard blow to me as I strive to be objective. Perhaps I'm say'in most of the guys say'in the'd never have a wood boat because you have to paint them too often are'nt being very objective. Read Marin's posts .....he's better w words than me. And he's got more words too. Most people go'in around say'in they'd never have a wood boat do'nt know anything about them. They just hear lots of other guys say that. And to appear knowledgeable they say that. Most people have a tendency to lean in the direction of the most popular opinions. Know'in you I'd say you're not slam'in me but most boaters don't give the wood boat enough credit. That's great for the people buy'in wood boats and not so good for those sell'in.

manyboats said:

Eric - I'd say you are simply in LOVE with wood boats!

Are you telling me I'm not very objective?
That would be a hard blow to me as I strive to be objective. Perhaps I'm say'in most of the guys say'in the'd never have a wood boat because you have to paint them too often are'nt being very objective. Read Marin's posts .....he's better w words than me. And he's got more words too. Most people go'in around say'in they'd never have a wood boat do'nt know anything about them. They just hear lots of other guys say that. And to appear knowledgeable they say that. Most people have a tendency to lean in the direction of the most popular opinions. Know'in you I'd say you're not slam'in me but most boaters don't give the wood boat enough credit. That's great for the people buy'in wood boats and not so good for those sell'in.

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I would have to say no on the totally objective part.

About half the things you listed are debateable.

Most glass boats are a lot of wood on the inside.

I don't like wood boats not because I have to paint them...it's because having owned a few and been on a lot...I don't like the feeling when they start working in a seaway that a plank might let go at any moment.

psneeld,
Yes the wood inside a FG boat is wood but it's necessary to give the weak plastic enough strength to be a marketable product. It's part of a FG boat. Sure you could build a stronger plastic boat but it would not be built out of pollyester resin and glass strand. It would be epoxy and kevlar or another exotic and expensive material. Yes an old boat that needs to be refastened does work and is not stiff but it's not a properly maintained boat. A FG boat w a bulsa cored deck will fail too but it's not a properly maintained boat either. A properly maintained wood boat is stronger and stiffer than a FG boat. Is that not true?
Debateable ?......Perhaps. Most things in boating and on TF are debateable.
I reread my post and do'nt see anything that I would call debateable.

So far proper maintenance is the common denominator in all boats. Wood, steel, aluminum, fiberglass. Power or sail.

The only thing debatable is if the previous owner provided it. If an experienced surveyor finds the boat to be in good serviceable order it will come down to picking ones flavor and learning the quirks. So far no different IMO than any of the boats represented by this Forum.

FWIW We are leaning more toward wood as our quest to find that ever elusive "perfect boat" continues. We like the character of the examples we've seen so far and quite agree with Marin's general assessment about aesthetics. Boats are like wine, they evoke ones passionate side. Probably why they are so often named after significant ladies in ones life.

manyboats said:

Eric - I'd say you are simply in LOVE with wood boats!

Are you telling me I'm not very objective?
That would be a hard blow to me as I strive to be objective. Perhaps I'm say'in most of the guys say'in the'd never have a wood boat because you have to paint them too often are'nt being very objective. Read Marin's posts .....he's better w words than me. And he's got more words too. Most people go'in around say'in they'd never have a wood boat do'nt know anything about them. They just hear lots of other guys say that. And to appear knowledgeable they say that. Most people have a tendency to lean in the direction of the most popular opinions. Know'in you I'd say you're not slam'in me but most boaters don't give the wood boat enough credit. That's great for the people buy'in wood boats and not so good for those sell'in.

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Eric - I did not mean to offend.

My post was meant as a peace pipe.

I know that well built wood boats are good boats; similar to but simply with different material than well built foberglass boats. Remenber form my previous posts that I worked on, pleasured upon, fished from, and in boatyards repaired/refinished wood boats for nearly two decades when young... I pretty well know the in and outs of wood boats. Wood boats were the vast majority when I was young. I also know fiberglass boats. Taken care of well built boats from either material are top-line craft!

Art,
Remember when the 62' Cris Craft motoryacht was the standard of the industry? Powered by 3 160 hp Cris Craft flathead 6 cyl engines. There was Nordberg, Red Wing, Palmer and lots of other flathead engines. They sounded wonderful and were so smooth they were mounted directly to the engine stringers. The wood of the hull probably absorbed some on the vibration that was left. I remember stripping the paint of wood hulls w a propane torch. I do'nt know if FG will stand up to that much heat. Never tried it. I think plywood boats were the strongest ever built in mass. Douglas Fir plywood, oak frames and monel or bronze fastners. Most of the yachts of this period were truly beautiful and well built. But FF is right. One cannot ignore a wood boat. Nor can one ignore a Jaguar or Porshe. Many of the best things in life require extra care but they repay in excellence. But most people do'nt care for a wood boat so buying an old wood pleasure boat is questionable but many old fish boats remain in excellent condition. Walk the docks in Petersburg Alaska and you will see them tied next to FG, steel and aluminum boats.
I still see nothing wrong w my nine claims for wood boats.

Greetings,
Mr. Willy. You forgot Hercules flat heads. I think ONE of the problems a lot of people see with wooden boats is rot due to fresh water. Either being operated in freshwater or if in salt, freshwater accumulating in the bilges from rain leakage. Saltwater acts as a preservative and one is less likely to see a 50 year old freshwater boat as opposed to a 50 year old saltwater boat.

115 hp Chrysler Crown flat head in our 23' 1948 Chris Craft Express cabin cruiser. 327 cid Chevy block CC marineized in our 34' Johnson Bros. lapstrake trunk-cabin cruiser. 155 hp Nordberg Knight in our Freeport Point custom built 38' raised deck, fly bridge sportfisher with full salon and accomidations. Tore out the Nordberg and put in 180 hp Perkins. NY... early 60's marine gas $0.29 and diesel $0.19. Man, those WERE the days for inexpensive boating!

manyboats said:

psneeld,
Yes the wood inside a FG boat is wood but it's necessary to give the weak plastic enough strength to be a marketable product. It's part of a FG boat. Sure you could build a stronger plastic boat but it would not be built out of pollyester resin and glass strand. It would be epoxy and kevlar or another exotic and expensive material. Yes an old boat that needs to be refastened does work and is not stiff but it's not a properly maintained boat. A FG boat w a bulsa cored deck will fail too but it's not a properly maintained boat either. A properly maintained wood boat is stronger and stiffer than a FG boat. Is that not true?
Debateable ?......Perhaps. Most things in boating and on TF are debateable.
I reread my post and do'nt see anything that I would call debateable.

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OK...materials, maintenance, construction method except cold molding which then there's not a lot of difference, cost, etc...etc...aside.

List one super yacht, or round the world racer or gov't boat (again unlimited funds and maintenance) that has been built of wood in the last 20 years.

I love the look and feel of a wood boat (not always the smell)...and ...up north it's a SLIGHTLY different story...down in the tropics...wood boat?....fogataboutit!

My issue...is a popped plank will ruin your day. And I know so will a thruhull...but not like a popped plank. And don't sell me maintenance because plenty of well maintained ones have done the same...I know I've spent 23 years in the USCG and the last 10 with an assistance towing/salvage company to see the differece between wood/glass boats and what may or may not happen.

Objective?...every post you get farther away. Using a propane torch on a glass boat....why in the world would you????

I strongly recommend reading the following. - Art

How Long do Fiberglass Boats Last?

http://www.ericgreeneassociates.com/images/Boat_Longevity.pdf

Shields #231:
We know that wood eventually rots and steel corrodes at a set “allowance” per year. Maintenance is key to achieving even normal life expectancy with wood or metal boats. However, fiberglass hulls have been pulled from out of the weeds and up from the depths to be restored to original luster. A case in point is the salvage of Shields #231, which sank in 60 feet of water in 1999 when swamped by a Long Island Sound Easterly. She was floated again on October 2, 2002. Figure 1 shows the boat as it was hauled from the bottom and Figure 2 shows her restored with a new paint job. The boat went on to race competitively in her fleet.

Also, I recommend you see the following picture journal

The Salvage of Shields #231:
Shields #231 sank in 60 feet of water in 1999 by swamping in an Easterly. She was floated again October 2, 2002. #231 is refitted and rechristened "Mermaid", rejoining Fleet #1.

http://www.shieldsfleetone.org/Photos/Photos_231_Salvage/231%20salvage.htm

psneeld,
" Using a propane torch on a glass boat....why in the world would you????"
To remove the old paint silly guy. Did it all the time in the old days. The paint would just bubble up a bit, get nice and soft and one swipe w a scraper and you're down to the primer. With a quick brush w sandpaper you're ready for recoat. Was easy but took some time.
Do'nt know anything about super yachts and do'nt have much interest so you tell me.
Popped planks? Do'nt remember them. Further from objectivity? You may be right but I still do'nt see any flaws in my nine points. I'd like not to argue w you and I have no interest in winning same but I do think wood boats have a lot more value than most perceive. But if you see this as an easy argument to win for obvious reasons I'll bail on you. But wood boats DO NOT have the monstrous problems of FG boats like rotten stringers, failed decks and cabins from mushy bulsa cores, blisters, gelcoat issues and excessive weight. And Art, how did "Shields" overcome all of these problems ....except for the weight issue? I've seen lots of FG boats in the weeds wondering why nobody resurrects them? FG was to be the last forever boat but they seem to get to the derelict state even quicker than wood boats did. Aluminum is probably the closest we'll ever get to the maintenance free boat. OK I'll admit FG boats are more maintenance free but only if one avoids all of the evils listed above. I wonder how many do?