Water entered albin trawler engine

Which model and year? Engine?
We will need to see several good pictures of your exhaust system. A poorly designed system is usually the reason water gets back into the engine.
How old is the exhaust elbow?

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. What Mr. jl said above plus faulty: heat exchanger, oil cooler, head gasket or...

Welcome aboard.

How do you know you got water in your engine?


David

Way to vague. We need specifics and pictures.

But.. sounds like an engine specific problem like RTF noted. If nothing changed in your exhaust system recently, look inside the engine or components.

pete

jleonard said:

Which model and year? Engine?
We will need to see several good pictures of your exhaust system. A poorly designed system is usually the reason water gets back into the engine.
How old is the exhaust elbow?

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As far as I know the exhaust elbow is original I have a 1980 Albin Ford Lehman 120 HP engine. Just had the engine rebuilt because 3 cylinders were rusted frozen & want to avoid this problem from recurring Thanks,
Jay

crossways8 said:

As far as I know the exhaust elbow is original I have a 1980 Albin Ford Lehman 120 HP engine. Just had the engine rebuilt because 3 cylinders were rusted frozen & want to avoid this problem from recurring Thanks,
Jay

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When engine was rebuilt was told the fins on the Impeller were virtually gone

Crossways:

That is a start but still woefully inadequate to do anything but bombshell you wih lots of theories, most of which will be irrelevant.

Let's assume that we can't know anything more about the cause of this rebuild other than "three cylinders were rusted and frozen". Let's also assume that the engine is now rebuilt and is running fine but you don't want the same thing to happen again.

So.....get an oil analysis done. Blackstone is one of the best. Then publish the results here so we can see the data ourselves. That will form a basis for further investigation.

Why an oil analysis? Well, one will definitely rule in or out saltwater getting into the engine. And even though I don't pay much attention to a single analysis (other than high sodium content), something major might show up which will lead us to further diagnostics. It is the one thing you can do easily that will provide a path towards knowing what if anything is going on.


David

crossways8 said:

Can anyone who has owned an Albin suggest remedies to prevent water from entering the engine. It was suggested it may be entering through the exhaust system

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Interesting this should pop up here. There is an older thread on the Albin Owners page that recently revived after another 36 owner posed questions about ensuring water didn’t end up in his engine. You might be interested in taking a look at it.

http://www.albinowners.com/aog/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5930

Greetings,
Mr. c8. If you haven't done so already AND you don't know the history of, change the oil and transmission coolers AND the heat exchanger. All of them are maintenance items with a finite lifespan. Would be a shame to have to rebuild, yet again. NOT saying this is the source of your water but preventive maintenance is cheaper than a rebuild. Shouldn't cost more than $700 max.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. c8. If you haven't done so already AND you don't know the history of, change the oil and transmission coolers AND the heat exchanger. All of them are maintenance items with a finite lifespan. Would be a shame to have to rebuild, yet again. NOT saying this is the source of your water but preventive maintenance is cheaper than a rebuild. Shouldn't cost more than $700 max.

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I'm curious, RT, where are you sourcing your parts, particularly the heat exchanger for the Lehman 120? Coolers are $100 each, and the heat exchangers I've seen are around $600. (I guess I'm assuming the OP has a 120. Maybe you're referring to a different engine used in Albins.)

crossways8 said:

As far as I know the exhaust elbow is original I have a 1980 Albin Ford Lehman 120 HP engine. Just had the engine rebuilt because 3 cylinders were rusted frozen & want to avoid this problem from recurring Thanks, Jay

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I would replace the exhaust elbow. It's pricey but easy to replace. Only 4 bolts (but one of them will break during removal requiring installation of helicoil.)

Rusted rings could result from several things. Possible that water backed up through exhaust manifold during excessive cranking but that might flood a cylinder chamber and at that point you are hydrolocked and then engine won't turn over. If someone just walked away then highly probable that rings will rust to cyl wall in any cyl with exh valves closed. If exh valves were open I suspect water would eventually evaporate.

Possible that a bad exhaust elbow let water into the exhaust manifold and it sat there creating a humid environment over a long period of time allowing rust to build up.

Possible engine was not run in a long time and stored in moist environment. Cylinders should be fogged for long term storage.

You may never know exact cause but you can take measurements of your exhaust system to ensure that it is designed properly. Google "installation of waterlift muffler" for details.

(If you don't have waterlift muffler then install one.)

As others have mentioned, replacing all coolers and heat exchangers is a good idea. They should be on a maintenance schedule. I would add that all new hoses should be installed at the same time. I don't think failure would result in cylinder water but failure would leave you dead in the water.

Just keep an eye on your exhaust outlet for any signs of steam.

Greetings,
Mr. cd. I have purchased parts for our Lehman's (120HP) from both American Diesel and Bomac.
https://americandieselcorp.com/
https://bomacmarine.com/


Just looked up the AD price on the heat exchanger. Oops, you are correct. It has been a while so my $700 guestimate IS low. Apologies. Probably close to a boat buck ($1000) for HE and coolers.


I DID check the Bomac site and they have exhaust elbows on sale for $125 plus several other "spares" that seem to be a good price.
https://bomacmarine.com/marine-sale-parts.html

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. cd. I have purchased parts for our Lehman's (120HP) from both American Diesel and Bomac.
https://americandieselcorp.com/
https://bomacmarine.com/

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Worth checking fredwarner1 on ebay, who sells some Lehman cooling parts. I experienced good pricing and service.

BruceK said:

Worth checking fredwarner1 on ebay, who sells some Lehman cooling parts. I experienced good pricing and service.

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logandiesel and onestudebakeravanti also sell Ford Lehman products on EBay. Search for Ford Lehman Diesel.

ebasicpower for velvet drive parts.

A few years ago when I bought my albin I talked to guys at American diesel and ask them things that I should know about the engine. One thing that they pointed out was that the exhaust Water trap should be immediately after the riser and not back under the berth where the exhaust exits the boat. Apparently they put the water trap in backwards when they built the boat. He said if you put a lot of weight back aft in the stern but there’s a chance of water would back up through the exhaust pipe into the engine.

Greetings,
Re: Post #17. Welcome aboard.

Welcome aboard

I had an Albin 40 where the drop from the manifold to the water lift muffler was not enough (less than may recommended numbers for engines/gensets)

I also but a loop from the coolers to the water injection port on the elbow all the way to the engine room ceiling to prevent any siphoning.

I also made sure the run and loop height of the exhaust out of the water lift muffler was as recommended to prevent backflooding in stern currents or wave action through the transom exhaust port.

mikemazz said:

A few years ago when I bought my albin I talked to guys at American diesel and ask them things that I should know about the engine. One thing that they pointed out was that the exhaust Water trap should be immediately after the riser and not back under the berth where the exhaust exits the boat. Apparently they put the water trap in backwards when they built the boat. He said if you put a lot of weight back aft in the stern but there’s a chance of water would back up through the exhaust pipe into the engine.

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Not sure the location of the lift muffler matters as much as run and rise of the exhaust system from each component to the next so water can drain and not accumulate and can't back flood.

On more than one boat I have seen the mufflers a good distance away from the engine, as long as the system was designed correctly it didn't seem to matter.

Yeah. I have at least 8 feet of hose after the exhaust riser/turbo/water feed combo going to the rear and can't even see the mufflers

psneeld said:

I had an Albin 40 where the drop from the manifold to the water lift muffler was not enough (less than may recommended numbers for engines/gensets)

I also but a loop from the coolers to the water injection port on the elbow all the way to the engine room ceiling to prevent any siphoning.

I also made sure the run and loop height of the exhaust out of the water lift muffler was as recommended to prevent backflooding in stern currents or wave action through the transom exhaust port.

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If i may ask because im pretty sure the albin is close to GB exhaust. Watching a video today i saw in the engine room the exhaust set up. I totally went nuts in my head after seeing the engine exhaust hose going into the muffler located at almost bottom of bilge. Then from the muffler the hose went straight up, above the entire engine and 90 degrees along the side and out the transom.

My question is, is the exhaust pressure from the engine actually pushing the water out? Kinda tough for me to visually see this because of the the thickness of the hose and the how high the water has to travel. I didnt make sense. Is there some type of check valve in the muffler or on the exhaust hose that i dont see?

Just seems like the water will easily head straight back into the engine. (which from my understanding is not good) We all know water compresses so easliy

Eli

The top of the heat exchange can be frightening close to water level in a lot of boats so if any thing out of the ordinary happens on board to alter boat floating water line level you can easily spill water into engine , install a 400mm loop prior to the raw water exiting to the exhaust I’ve had the same problem you’ve had and this guarantees that it can’t happen again.

Eli27 said:

If i may ask because im pretty sure the albin is close to GB exhaust. Watching a video today i saw in the engine room the exhaust set up. I totally went nuts in my head after seeing the engine exhaust hose going into the muffler located at almost bottom of bilge. Then from the muffler the hose went straight up, above the entire engine and 90 degrees along the side and out the transom.

My question is, is the exhaust pressure from the engine actually pushing the water out? Kinda tough for me to visually see this because of the the thickness of the hose and the how high the water has to travel. I didnt make sense. Is there some type of check valve in the muffler or on the exhaust hose that i dont see?

Just seems like the water will easily head straight back into the engine. (which from my understanding is not good) We all know water compresses so easliy

Eli

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Depends on a few things....and yes exhaust pressure blows the water out in pulses when it builds pressure enough.

I believe one critical design issue is..... except for the long run to the transom through hull..... each segment of hose, if it drains back towards the engine seeds enough room in the next segment to absorb it....each segment separated by loops high enough to stop the estimated amounts

But your description sounds about what mine looked like after I was done "fixing" it from the original install.

psneeld said:

Depends on a few things....and yes exhaust pressure blows the water out in pulses when it builds pressure enough.

I believe one critical design issue is..... except for the long run to the transom through hull..... each segment of hose, if it drains back towards the engine seeds enough room in the next segment to absorb it....each segment separated by loops high enough to stop the estimated amounts

But your description sounds about what mine looked like after I was done "fixing" it from the original install.

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Freaky for me to conceive this being an automotive tech for over 20yrs. Ive had a couple of cars that had intermittent lose of power due to broken converters. But it was an easy diag due to the rattle noise. But we always learn something new every day.

And as im thinking about this,,, i remember when i was a kid hanging at the marinas with my dad on our boat i always saw flappers on the exhaust. I dont think i see them anymore?!?!

Eli

Flappers are around but generally uneeded with the right exhaust design...

psneeld said:

Flappers are around but generally uneeded with the right exhaust design...

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"Right exhaust design" I really need to wrap my head aroung this. One of my problems (which made me a pretty good tech) the need to understand how a system works. Seeing what i saw yesterday and soon im gonna be next to is gonna definitely be messing with me until i can "see it" work in my head.

With all the head pressure i wonder how much more oomphh the engine will have with a dry exhaust.

Eli

Go to Seaboard Marine website. sbmar.com and look up Tony's tips section and then his writings about exhaust systems. He is an expert on these things.
Lots of photos also along with explanations.

Best time you will spend.