Looking for Info on Lehman 2702 6015

All,

I found a pair of Lehman running takeouts from a 1968 GB36 that I am looking to use to replace my DOA Lehmans. The block has "7202 6015" stamped on the side underneath the starter but I can't find any information on this particular model.

The engines were still in the boat (the boat was a science project and not pleasant to spend a lot of time in) but tried to find other serial numbers on the block but no luck.

I have heard that in 1968, American Marine used not only the FL 120hp but also FL 105hp motors. Also aware that they did their own marine conversion of the Lehman.

Is there any way to tell if these are the 120hp or 105hp versions? Does anyone have any links to additional information, manuals, etc.?

The guru is Brian Smith at American Diesel. 804-435-3107.

I should have mentioned that I was planning on making Brian one of my first calls on Monday.

Post pictures if possible.

Ford 2700 series are simple reliable engines. If all of the ID plates are gone they only method for determining Cu In would be to pull an injector and measure the amount of light oil put in the combustion chamber at TDC with valves closed. Doesn't give you BHP but puts you in the ballpark.

I would be more concerned with who marinized it. Lehman parts are still available so most external items prone to failure can be replaced.

What is preventing you from rebuilding existing Lehman's?

Might be a serial number on the block behind the hose that's behind the injector pump.

Have you seen this
https://everythingaboutboats.org/ford-2702e-diesel-engine/

Ford 2702E Diesel Engine

We found no evidence that Ford ever put an engine with the model number 2702E into production, however several major castings including cylinder blocks have “2702E” cast into them as shown below. How this came about is due to Ford’s part numbering scheme (See How to Identify Ford Engines). This number is just the first part of the components part number and it is taken from the model number of the first engine that the part is intended to fit, even if ultimately that engine is never produced. As shown below, this number is followed by “6015” which is the designator in the part number for all “raw” engine block castings. As these castings are machined and assembled, they are assigned different part numbers depending on the degree of assembly, etc. The engine blocks identified with the “2702E 6015” casting part number as shown below were eventually used to build the 2703E model engines. Click here to go to our Ford 2703E Diesel Engine webpage.

I'll get some photos up when I get back to the house.

It's painted "Lehman Red" if that is any indication (understand that American Marine painted theirs green).

Of note, it has a rotary injection pump as opposed to the "vertical" injection pump commonly found on Lehmans. Not sure if that related to the HP rating or just an early design.

Seems like I'm always tripping across the Easter eggs of TTs.

Thanks for all your responses!

Pictures of the engine would get answers. Lots of those F.L.s out there. Willing to bet they are 120s. Any indication of how many hours on them ? Can you make them run?

pete

Ford Lehman original paint
Red 6 cylinder is 120HP, 4 cylinder 80HP
Green or yellow goldish are 109HP, 4 cylinder 71HP

I understand that the lower HP are the economy version and the only difference is the amount of fuel the injection pump delivers.

Hours are 4220. Photos to come.

Here are some photos.

SoWhat asked: "What is preventing you from rebuilding existing Lehman's?"

Current Lehmans are 225SP's that have had the intercoolers bypassed because the PO failed to do the regular maintenance so they have been bypassed and "de-tuned" to 180hp.

My "mechanic" (another story that I could, and probably will, write book about) removed, and then re-installed incorrectly, the cold-start solenoid on my port engine which caused the fuel rack to be pushed into the full throttle position so that when they started the engine, it started in full throttle position and it would not shut down until they disconnected the fuel from the secondary filters. Call it a "mini-runaway" and now the port engine is seized.

Wanting to get back to Seattle, even if only on one engine, we headed south the the good starboard engine. Because we thought the run-away was caused by a failed turbo, I had the turbos rebuilt and had the mechanic reinstall. Well after installing, they failed to bleed the cooling system so I ended-up with an air lock that caused all the coolant to boil out. There was so much white smoke coming out of the engine room I thought we were electing a new Pope!

So why not rebuild the SP225's?

To begin with, the engine itself is bit of an odd ball (of all the engines Lehman put together, the SP225 and 275 account for only 10% of the total production run). Brian does not have the parts for the rebuild and needless to say, I don't trust either engine. Add to that the cost of $40K+ (includes in, out, rebuild and reworking the exhaust system) to rebuild a 35 year odd-ball engine, think I'm better with a tried and true (will certainly have it throughly check-out) FL120.

What are you Rodin about he mechanic that f'd up both engines?

I'm an attorney (not a litigator) so I have hired a maritime attorney to review my claim. We sent the mechanic a demand letter and he immediately turned it over to his insurance company. Unfortunately in Washington, one cannot sue for negligence (which is covered by his insurance) for damaging the thing he was contracted to repair (i.e. the engines). In other words the claim lies in breach of contract not the tort of negligence.

Funny, not really, but if the boat ended up on the beach because the engines failed and his negligence was deemed to be the cause of the failure, there would be coverage and a new boat.

So unless he has something akin to errors and omissions insurance (in the mechanic world called "shopkeepers coverage") or has a specific endorsement covering his E&O, I'm left going after the company for breach of contract.

Assume we went to trial and I was awarded everything I asked for (i.e. all the money I paid him together with running engines) he is probably an empty bag and would shutter his company and run away into the night.

So when having a yard or firm do work on your engines or boat, ask if they have shopkeepers insurance or E&O coverage otherwise you could be SOL.

Don't want to hijack this thread but through I should add some context to the reason for my search for new power.

The pump appears to be a CAV rotary injection pump. Probably available in the tractor world. Est $2000 new.
I would replace the raw water pump from the shaft style to the newer geared version. Est $5-600.
I would replace the heat exchanger and coolers. Est $6-700.

You could probably use starters and alternators off existing engines. I would want some assurance regarding parts availability before proceeding with the take out's. I trust someone else will chime in with model & hp.

Just read your synopsis of engine failures. What a nightmare! I can't believe a diesel mechanic could cause so much damage due to "errors." Unfortunately filing a claim in court will flush a few boat bucks down the drain.

Bomac Marine and Logan Diesel are the 2 largest Lehman rebuilders. If the engines are seized it could be something simple like mains or something complex requiring cylinder sleeves. No way of knowing until disassembly.

Flyguy1967 said:

...Unfortunately in Washington, one cannot sue for negligence (which is covered by his insurance) for damaging the thing he was contracted to repair (i.e. the engines). In other words the claim lies in breach of contract not the tort of negligence.

Funny, not really, but if the boat ended up on the beach because the engines failed and his negligence was deemed to be the cause of the failure, there would be coverage and a new boat.

So unless he has something akin to errors and omissions insurance (in the mechanic world called "shopkeepers coverage") or has a specific endorsement covering his E&O, I'm left going after the company for breach of contract....
.

Click to expand...

It`s no help, but isn`t running up on a beach just consequential damages as a result of the breach of contract. The beach could sue him for negligence, but why does it change to a claim in negligence for you.

Bruce,

It all has to do with a legal theory called the economic loss rule.

First, you are correct, he would be responsible for damages sustained to the boat under both a breach of contract theory as well as negligence theory.

Under the theory of negligent repair, his carrier (and most yard/mechanic carriers) covers damage caused his negligence for everything which he was not contracted to repair (hence damage to the boat would be covered, which would include engines if the boat was totaled because he was not contracted to repair "the boat").

Our state (Washington) says a person cannot recover damages under a negligent repair theory if the only claim for damages (failing to bleed the cooling system/failing to installing the cold start solenoid correctly) is what was damaged (the engines) and that was what he was contracted to repair (the engines).

Another example, he also installed a new bow thruster in the boat. If the boat sunk (if i cold only be so lucky at this point) because of his negligent thruster installation, I would have coverage under his policy because his negligent installation sunk my boat. However, if he cooked the thruster motor because of his negligent installation, his insurance company would not pay for a new thruster motor because the economic loss rule says my cause of action is for damage to the thing (the thruster motor) I asked him to install. Consequently, I am forced to sue him for breach of contract for which he does not have insurance coverage (see below).

Under a breach of contract theory, he is liable all day long for both the boat running up on the beach (consequential damages) and the engines. Unfortunately most insurance companies (and that is who we are trying to bring into the action) do not cover damage caused by breach of contract so we would try to sue under a negligence theory, but as noted above, in my case, the boat did not go aground and economic loss rule prevents me from recovering under a theory of negligent repair.

Insurance companies (negligence) have money/mechanics (contract) not so much. Does not mean I still might spend a few boat bucks to make him spend 5x that amount to defend himself. Maybe I can at least help his lawyer make his boat payment by defending my negligent mechanic.

Those numbers on the block are casting numbers, probably a part number for the block itself, not a serial or part number for the whole engine. Ford engine tags are usually brass and riveted to the flywheel housing. Look around there, it might be painted over.

Regarding the mechanic and the 225's overheat, your case may not be that clear cut. While he may have some liability for failing to completely bleed the coolant, the operator has some responsibility to monitor engine temps and to have the high temp alarm system functional. If both engines were run to the point of cooking out the coolant, it sounds like the gauges either did not work or were not monitored and that the alarm system did not work. If the mech did not work on those systems, I can't imagine him holding that liability. (not an atty here, but have consulted in these types of litigation as a mech and engr).

Also the 225 is a bit of an unusual engine with regards to the cooling system, and is a rare engine also. The court might side with the mech that it was unreasonable for a generalist to know the quirks of a rare engine.

I'm not trying to take the mech's side as on any engine he needs to verify circulation after cooling system work and bleed as necessary. The operator needs to be particularly cautious on first run after major work. Just trying to throw out some possible defenses his side may use.

This is where I found the serial number stamped on a flat spot on the block.

Thanks PS!

Owner will be on the boat this week and I’ll direct him to look there.

As Soo pointed out, there is an “economy” version and I have heard there is something to that effect stamped on the heat exchanger. Looking for that as well.

I’ll keep you posted.

Mikeh has a pair of 120’s with transmissions listed in the classifieds. No connection just a thought

John

Thought I would give you all an update.

I've decided to repower with engines closer to the original 225hp configuration. I figured any saving I might realize in buying a pair of FL120's would be quickly evaporated by new transmissions, props, etc. Boat has 2" shafts and 24"x24" props.

I did speak with Mikeh and is a real nice guy. Still has the engines.

I'll start a new thread on the repower when we get to that point.

Cheers!

Brent

Sounds like a wise choice. If you shop around Im sure you can locate a couple F.L.s of the proper hp. Lots of them get swapped out for more modern, higher hp engines but on a trawler the more hp isn't going to make much difference but lots of people actually think you can get an old T.T up on a plane if you add enough horsepower. Sort of true but not realistic.

Like the old saying goes. "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

pete

LIve llfe with wanton abandon

Dear Lehman friend.
Donate the existing Lehmans you have as anchors to a worthy boater and buy two rebuilt 120's. As you will recall as an attorney, the three words every attorney hates to read in a contract is..."Notwithstanding the foregoing".

Flyguy1967 said:

Thought I would give you all an update.

I've decided to repower with engines closer to the original 225hp configuration. I figured any saving I might realize in buying a pair of FL120's would be quickly evaporated by new transmissions, props, etc. Boat has 2" shafts and 24"x24" props.

I did speak with Mikeh and is a real nice guy. Still has the engines.

I'll start a new thread on the repower when we get to that point.

Cheers!

Brent

Click to expand...

Does that mean keeping the 225 block so nothing downstream needs changing? I`ve a vague memory(perhaps generally but this one is specific)Comodave depowered his 225s, maybe deleting the aftercoolers. Might be worth a PM unless he comes and posts.

No I have not modified mine, they are still 225s. If the aftercooler goes bad they are not available. So if that happens then you can run a hose around it and then you get a 180 hp. I am concerned about mine because there is no record of the maintenance being done on the aftercooler so I don’t know the condition of mine, I can only hope they are ok, no signs of them having a problem.

As of the last check there were two F.L. 120's for sale on this forum. (Not me, not mine)

pete

I'm going to replace the engines and transmissions. The after coolers on my 225s have been bypassed and rebuilding a 35 yo bit of a one-off engine and using 35 yr old gears does not make sense. I know I'm never getting my money back but trips up the inside passage without having to worry if I'm going to be stuck somewhere where I cannot find parts, priceless.

Mike has the FL120s for sale in the classifieds and we did speak, but the boat weighs 68,000 lbs (per the crane operator) and pushing that beast together with 24" x 24" props, might be asking too much for that engine.

Finally, this model is based (stolen?) on the Hatteras 48 CPMY and they power those with 425's DDs. Pretty difficult to tell the difference, huh?

A couple of 120s will push your boat ok but you may have to reprop. Lots of boats your size have 120s. It won’t be fast but it would work.