Panda Fischer Generator

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psneeld said:
You COULD change my mind with a few facts.
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Well, the OP said he has space considerations. Sounds like in today's market, his options are Fisher Panda and NextGen. From what I can remember based on research I did last year, I would go NextGen - slower-speed, and if I'm going to go with a niche product, I prefer dealing with a smaller company based in Florida or PNW (not sure why, just seem to be hives of quality marine stuff). I also was not comfortable with the many reports of service failures I found with FP (from memory, related to exhaust elbow as I recall).

As far as convincing folks what generator to buy or why NL is a good generator, that's a personal decision. As mentioned in my original OP response, I can only speak to how I made my decision last year. I had some space limitations, though not as tight as I detect the OP's situation. I wanted a ~6kw. 1800 RPM engine. Price was competitive (e.g. no premium). Reputation for reliability and being sensibly marinized. NL have been around for a long time - generators is all they do these days. And they are the go-to choice for cruising yachts. For me, that adds-up to a credible statement of 'gold standard.' But if you're not comfortable with the moniker, well, your opinion is as good as anyone's. But hey, maybe I'm biased- I was a delivery skipper in the late 90's early 2000's and moved a ton of Nordhavns which all had NL Generators and Lugger Engines at the time. I have a lot of respect for how those engines were marinzed. I'm sure there are others (Westerbeke comes to mind), but I know NL's pretty well. To each their own.
 
Fletcher500 said:
I knew Kubota made the engines for Cummins/Onan Gens, but didn't realize they also provide for Northern Lights. I thought they used Luggars in NL.
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Lugger was the Alaska Diesel (ADE) marinized propulsion engine, but the actual power-plant was usually built on a John Deere engine (also used others including Komatsu and Kubota). About 10-years ago, ADE decided not to seek Tier III certification for their propulsion engines and essentially exited the propulsion market.
 
mvweebles said:
About 10-years ago, ADE decided not to seek Tier III certification for their propulsion engines and essentially exited the propulsion market.
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That must be why they have Yanmars in their booth at the expo and concentrate on Northern Lights.
 
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Interesting, alot of inter marriages going on in the marine generator world.

In retrospect, I could have gotten by with a smaller rated unit but wanted the extra capability for future gear, and the lower noise with a lower rpm engine.

The AC water maker will help. I have room for a big one, but specifically chose a lower rated water output capacity so I can run it longer, and load the Gen better while underway, at anchor, or on a can.
 
mvweebles said:
Well, the OP said he has space considerations. Sounds like in today's market, his options are Fisher Panda and NextGen. From what I can remember based on research I did last year, I would go NextGen - slower-speed, and if I'm going to go with a niche product, I prefer dealing with a smaller company based in Florida or PNW (not sure why, just seem to be hives of quality marine stuff). I also was not comfortable with the many reports of service failures I found with FP (from memory, related to exhaust elbow as I recall).

As far as convincing folks what generator to buy or why NL is a good generator, that's a personal decision. As mentioned in my original OP response, I can only speak to how I made my decision last year. I had some space limitations, though not as tight as I detect the OP's situation. I wanted a ~6kw. 1800 RPM engine. Price was competitive (e.g. no premium). Reputation for reliability and being sensibly marinized. NL have been around for a long time - generators is all they do these days. And they are the go-to choice for cruising yachts. For me, that adds-up to a credible statement of 'gold standard.' But if you're not comfortable with the moniker, well, your opinion is as good as anyone's. But hey, maybe I'm biased- I was a delivery skipper in the late 90's early 2000's and moved a ton of Nordhavns which all had NL Generators and Lugger Engines at the time. I have a lot of respect for how those engines were marinzed. I'm sure there are others (Westerbeke comes to mind), but I know NL's pretty well. To each their own.
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I too was a delivery captain both for my company and a Dealership.


I can't say which genset is better than another because I have no facts to support it. Even with running hundreds of different gensets of all kinds I STILL couldn't say which is better as they all stop sooner or later and all have annoying details built into them...or at least some of their models. Plus Running a new genset for a delivery is hardly proof of anything other than the factory did a good job in prepping it for a short haul.



But I just don't like the general forum to think one product is better than another.... mostly based on the passing around of info that is on a reputation that got started who know why or when...but I have never seen any real facts to support it.


They might have had a run of some models that a majority of commercial users and mechanics sang the praises of...but recently I have heard some mechs I respect say they are good but not leaps and bounds better than the majors and a few minors.
 
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syjos said:
That must be why they have Yanmars in their booth at the expo and concentrate on Northern Lights.
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If I had to guess, NL is feeling the heat from Cummins/Onan. Cummins purchased Onan over 20-years ago, but they didn't really merge the two in marine until 10-15 years ago where they started aggressively marketing to boat builders. For owners, makes sense to have one factory tech service both their propulsion engine(s) and generator - newer common rail engines now often require factory authorized service (which pisses-off farmers to no end).

At the same time, ADE (now Northern Lights) made the decision to exit marine propulsion due to unwillingness to invest in Tier III upgrades. In so doing, they will eventually be crowded-out of the new-build recreational yacht market to the likes of Cummins/Onan. Frankly, I'm surprised with their affiliation with Yanmar - I would have thought that JD Marine Propulsion would have been a more logical partner. But I've been out of the marine market for 15-years --- a lot has happened.
 
psneeld said:
Plus Running a new genset for a delivery is hardly proof of anything other than the factory did a good job in prepping it for a short haul.
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Not bragging, but these were not short hauls. Because PAE/Selene are located in the hi-tax state of California, and California is almost 800 miles north to south, almost all of my deliveries were in the range of 1000+ nms to a low/no cost tax jurisdiction, some closer to 5000 nms to Florida. Because these were new boats, often had to service them during the delivery (sometimes at sea) to remove break-in oil at manufacturer's specified interval of 100-hours.

The reason's I gave for my decision for NL and declared them a "Gold Standard" only partially involved mechanical/reliability benefits related to the mechanical and power head. Other attributes of the Northern Lights was global distribution, quiet running (which the Victron white paper definitely pointed out), solid marinization, and 1800 RPM power plant. These are all attributes that many buyers would be interested in, and reduce the brands of generators - not much left standing in this size range. For Westerbeke, if you need a distributor in Mexico, you're directed to Miami. One distributor in Australia. One in UK (Ireland).

Bottom line, I understand your reticence at labeling anything superior. But when you look at the total package of where NL fits - product, support, pricing, etc., I think it has a credible claim to being the top of the heap in the category. Not to say there aren't other good reliable choices, but it's tough to go wrong with NL in the <12KW range.
 
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I do not believe NL would risk their reputation on shoddy products. They have been the 'go-to' generators for many years. Westerbeke is the second when it comes to reputation. NetGen, to be honest, I had not heard of them until this discussion.
As far as the Panda Fisher..... I have not heard good things about them in all the years I have known of their existence.
My choice would be NL, followed by Westerbeke.
Onan generators, I have not heard much about them on boats. They are big in the RV market.

On my N46, I had a 'never fail' naturally aspirated Lugger for a main engine and a NL and Westerbeke for generators. I was happy and satisfied as a clam.

Now, on my AT, I have a Cummins 5.9 QSB that mystifies me. I have a NL 6kw with a Kubota engine, I think.
So far, I am satisfied with both. Both seem to have very good reputations and are reliable.
 
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mvweebles said:
The reason's I gave for my decision for NL and declared them a "Gold Standard" only partially involved mechanical/reliability benefits related to the mechanical and power head. Other attributes of the Northern Lights was global distribution, quiet running (which the Victron white paper definitely pointed out), solid marinization, and 1800 RPM power plant. These are all attributes that many buyers would be interested in, and reduce the brands of generators - not much left standing in this size range. For Westerbeke, if you need a distributor in Mexico, you're directed to Miami. One distributor in Australia. One in UK (Ireland).
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NL also only have one distributor in Australia, one in NZ, one in Thailand and none in Indonesia.
https://www.northern-lights.com/dealers/pacific-rim/

Kubota on the other hand has dealers on almost every street corner all over the planet
 
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Just for fun - the engine on my NL 8kw (M753W2) from about 2008 or so is clearly labeled as IHI Shibaura.


Ken
 
Strictly anecdotal, but we have loved our 2017 Kohler 9k. Very quiet in its sound shield and runs everything on our 42' boat. We frequently run it while cruising for either A/C or for heat - two 16,000 btu reverse cycle hvac systems, frig, icemaker, ..... Only issue we have had was the oil pressure sending unit - easy swap out and covered by warranty.
 
kchace said:
Just for fun - the engine on my NL 8kw (M753W2) from about 2008 or so is clearly labeled as IHI Shibaura.


Ken
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Ishikawajima-Shibaura Machinery (ISM) Company of Japan and AD started a relationship in the early 00's to design and build small diesel engines for the use in generators. AD slowly phased out the other diesel brands and is pretty much exclusive with ISM.

It does make parts sourcing a little more difficult than with Kubota, Mitsubishi etc.
 
Funny how everybody has their own anecdotal experience. I had a Westerbeke and an Onan on one past boat. I thought they were both big pieces of crap and avoided using either. However I have to admit, they were both many decades old and still running.
 
my 2005 NL 5.5kw has a Shibaura - works great so far (one year with me).

my 2005 NL 16.5kw has an engine I haven't identified yet - works great so far (one year with me). Totally awesome tech support when I was getting these two running after buying the boat, which had been laid up for 2 years.

I had a 2007 NexGen 5.5kw in another boat - I assumed it was going to be a problem because it was some no-name brand, but the engine was Kubota and the whole thing ran quietly and perfectly for the year I had the boat. easy to maintain, off the shelf parts, nice tech support too.

I subscribed to Practical Sailor for years - but my experience with products they tested was never as good as they got. Now I never ever consult them or any other consumer testing source selling info. As said earlier, the type of testing done is something different than what we might want to know or beleive before buying something to use for a decade. The testing magazines can't afford to run decade longitudinal studies... they need to do things over a week and create a pithy write-up which is intelligible to the average reader. magazines need to eat too!
 
Panda Fisher Generator

WHY, in todays world would you reinstall a dinosaur.

You really didn't give much of a background of your current electrical items. Besides the generator, what alternator(s) and batteries do you have onboard?

For your use, a solar array could be a much better and more inexpensive alternative. Remove the inboard generator and free up some engine room space.

ALSO, to accomplish what you might want to accomplish you could also look toward your batteries. What you want to do may be able to be done with just battery changes, more or bigger batteries.

You could also look toward your OEM alternators and replace with something that could recharge your batteries in a much shorter period of time while underway.

Finally, I just saw that West Marine has come out with Honda style generators, that with an upgrade in previously stated areas could be a backup to what I mentioned if you got in a bind.

In closing, we will start seeing fuel cells coming on to the market. Used for a while in the RV market they will replace the noisy, often broken down, smelly and often used obnoxious generators of old.

Would be glad to discuss further if you have a mind to do so. Private message me.
 
Pete Meisinger said:
Sorry, forgot to add this..

Don't let anyone talk you into a air cooled Honda for the aft deck or swim platform. They are a hassle with he cords, are louder than you think they are and you won't make any friends at close anchorages. For the cost of one of them you can get a nice used water cooled unit.

pete
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Not to mention a carbon monoxide poisoning risk...
 
Since it is Steve who made the comment, in quote, I will defer to him, BUT will add that not all air cooled 'Hondas' are kept on the swim platform or aft decks, that since the air cooled would be used when anchored and MOST TIMES the boat is facing into the wind so exhaust would be pushed back, and as I said in an earlier post, with larger alternators and or batteries, the air cooled would only be used as a backup to top off your batteries before bed time, risk would be minimal, friends in the anchorage maintained and noise level really is low.

Since the last time I looked at a Honda, they were about $2K I really don't think you could get a used water cooled generator for close to that, but then 1 would wonder why someone was selling a used water cooled generator in the 1st place. Could you be paying to take over someone else's headache?
 
Update; I had a tech look at my gen last weekend, he is confident that the oil cooler let go. He is coming this weekend to replace it, get the engine flushed out and going again. This will run me $600 bucks plus the oil cooler, and a few other small parts. I think this is well worth the money if I can get another few years our of the Panda. Eventually I think I would replace it with the Next-Gen. Coincidentally, Panda has also been using Kubota engines for several years, though mine is an earlier model before they made this change. Due to my size restrictions, my understanding is my only three options are Panda, Next-Gen, and Whisper. Thanks for the input, I will keep you posted.
 
CaseyMarie

I told you I wanted the old one,,, You started a good conversation all the same lot of good info.

ALTAIR
 
First I am a little surprised that that little Farymann (right?) engine even has an oil cooler. Second I am surprised that the water got in the oil due to a leak in the cooler. Whether it is raw water cooled or coolant cooled, the pressure on the water side is usually less than 15 psi. The oil pressure should be 2 times more. So if there is a leak, the oil goes into the water.


David
 
psneeld said:
I too was a delivery captain both for my company and a Dealership.


I can't say which genset is better than another because I have no facts to support it. Even with running hundreds of different gensets of all kinds I STILL couldn't say which is better as they all stop sooner or later and all have annoying details built into them...or at least some of their models. Plus Running a new genset for a delivery is hardly proof of anything other than the factory did a good job in prepping it for a short haul.



But I just don't like the general forum to think one product is better than another.... mostly based on the passing around of info that is on a reputation that got started who know why or when...but I have never seen any real facts to support it.


They might have had a run of some models that a majority of commercial users and mechanics sang the praises of...but recently I have heard some mechs I respect say they are good but not leaps and bounds better than the majors and a few minors.
Click to expand...

Looking for facts about marine gear to support a position on the totem pole of quality is best exemplified in the "best anchor", "best dink" and single vs twin argument which go on forever with no clear winners and "facts" to support every side of the issue. To think you can successfully campaign against the propensity of all sorts of people to label something the best or pure gold or whatever other laudatory appellation they wish is a losing proposition and sure to frustrate you in the end. I see the primary value of TF in its delivery of opinion rather than fact about anything, although I admit to coming up with a nugget of "fact" from time to time. Earlier this evening in a moment of laziness I gave thought toward checking in here about which AGM I should choose to replace my seven-year old failing start bank, but then realized I didn't want to wade through a ton of discussion to distill the "facts," not that I don't like to read through at least the initial parts of just about all threads until they tail off into nonsense. In the end, a couple of hours research sent me to my opinion of the best battery, and no, I will not put that up to discussion. :flowers:
 
hi all,

we have 2 boats one in fl/bh and the other ne. we anchor out a lot and rely on our generators. the fl boat has an entec (14 yrs/1730 hrs), the ne boat has an entec (10 yrs/ 800 hrs). both are dependable and do the job. the ne boat is an "electric" boat (i.e stove/coffee/microwave) so it starts every morning to charge/make hw/make coffee. i think nothing about starting them on either boat on hot afternoon to run ac.

one change i made on both is to make rw cooling a 110v a/c pump. it basically moves rw from the genset area. i will say both are on the noisy side but like most things, you get used to it. a buddy and i are working on quieting the nextgen down. will report on results.
 
Nepidae said:
Since it is Steve who made the comment, in quote, I will defer to him, BUT will add that not all air cooled 'Hondas' are kept on the swim platform or aft decks, that since the air cooled would be used when anchored and MOST TIMES the boat is facing into the wind so exhaust would be pushed back, and as I said in an earlier post, with larger alternators and or batteries, the air cooled would only be used as a backup to top off your batteries before bed time, risk would be minimal, friends in the anchorage maintained and noise level really is low.

Since the last time I looked at a Honda, they were about $2K I really don't think you could get a used water cooled generator for close to that, but then 1 would wonder why someone was selling a used water cooled generator in the 1st place. Could you be paying to take over someone else's headache?
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Understood, and if that's the only way it would ever be used, under those conditions, it's probably not an issue. However, as you noted, I've seen these gens moved into the cockpit because the wind kicked up and waves were lapping the swim platform, or because the owner didn't want to move it out into the swim platform in the rain, etc. If people can die from CO produced by other boat's engines/gens, they can die from CO produced by a portable genset located on a swim platform, a wind against tide or current scenario could be the perfect recipe for such a disaster.

Owners can choose to take the portable genset route; however, it's one marine industry professionals should never condone.
 
I replaced our 9kw (way overkill) Kohler with a 4.5kw Phasor two years ago, and couldn't be happier. So nice to spend a summer night in Florida at anchor with A/C, and not have our neighbors giving us dirty looks. Quiet, strong, stingy on fuel. Two cylinder Kubota at 1800 rpm's, half the weight of the old Kohler. Will power three of the five major energy users at the same time (forward a/c, salon a/c, stove, water heater, 150 amp battery charger/inverter). I think NextGen makes a similar unit.

BTW, being very frugal, I tried the Honda 2000 route first. Big mistake. First, it's not 2000 watt except for very brief start ups, more like 1600 continuous. Won't run anything else if recharging house batteries, and takes forever to do that. Second, noisy as hell. Third, carrying and pouring gasoline on the swim platform, very scary.
 
djmarchand said:
First I am a little surprised that that little Farymann (right?) engine even has an oil cooler. Second I am surprised that the water got in the oil due to a leak in the cooler. Whether it is raw water cooled or coolant cooled, the pressure on the water side is usually less than 15 psi. The oil pressure should be 2 times more. So if there is a leak, the oil goes into the water.


David
Click to expand...

The oil cooler is just a copper coil that runs through the oil in the oil pan. So the water pump is just dumping water in the oil pan. For this reason the generator has to be removed from its mounts and laid over on it's side to replace the cooler. My Panda is raw water cooled unfortunately.

Overgill, I should have known you would be on here, good to hear from you!
 
bykpjfk said:
I replaced our 9kw (way overkill) Kohler with a 4.5kw Phasor two years ago, and couldn't be happier. So nice to spend a summer night in Florida at anchor with A/C, and not have our neighbors giving us dirty looks. Quiet, strong, stingy on fuel. Two cylinder Kubota at 1800 rpm's, half the weight of the old Kohler. Will power three of the five major energy users at the same time (forward a/c, salon a/c, stove, water heater, 150 amp battery charger/inverter). I think NextGen makes a similar unit.

BTW, being very frugal, I tried the Honda 2000 route first. Big mistake. First, it's not 2000 watt except for very brief start ups, more like 1600 continuous. Won't run anything else if recharging house batteries, and takes forever to do that. Second, noisy as hell. Third, carrying and pouring gasoline on the swim platform, very scary.
Click to expand...




For those like me who use it just for battery charging and don't need 8KW to do that...


It takes less than an hour with proper battery charger (s) and never needs refueling during that chore.



It can barely be heard on the opposite side of the boat (if you anchor position was picked thinking ahead) or on the flybridge surrounded by objects.


I have never even had a CO detector chirp let alone be in a warning mode or danger mode.


Again, used wisely....a portable genset is no more dangerous than most skippers just boating in general I know.
 
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So, if they were old and still running, why did you conclude that they were junk? Seems to me, an opposite conclusion would have been reached.
makobuilders said:
Funny how everybody has their own anecdotal experience. I had a Westerbeke and an Onan on one past boat. I thought they were both big pieces of crap and avoided using either. However I have to admit, they were both many decades old and still running.
Click to expand...
 
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