Opinions wanted.

P.S. Phil Fill... My Coffee was great thanks for the break my Friend! LOL

FF. Once again thanks.. I have been looking in the commercial parts bin as you say. The way I see it. The commercial side has the upper hand, their systems have to be top of the line for daily use. One may pay a bit more is some case but it just may be worth it.

I agree with you on wiring the Furuno systems. I want a fail safe system in place. If one fails that others still can function independently from the others. Plus I would want a back up system as well that is indepent. This many be over kill I know but peace of mind is always a great thing. What is your thought on Garmin systems if you have any? Pro's and con's as a back up system?

Thanks for the tip on the Murphy Switchgauges. Yes some people do not know what they should be look for when it comes to engine instruments. Point in case MY WIFE! LOL Not that she could not learn it, just would like a simple system for her. So thanks FF.. I will look into the Murphy Switchgauges,

Another long reply.

Weather its bow or stern its still pisses me off. Yes, is probable more the stern as the stern digs a big hole in the water. The Eagle puts out about a 1 ft wake which is the bow wake.

I love our auto pilot with a 25 ft cord remote, so I am not stuck behind the helm and/or in the pilot house. As soon as we are in open water the Eagle is on auto pilot. On a single a rudder indicator is a must because most of the maneuvering is done with the rudder and the position. Would not leave the dock with out both of them. Well, even with both I seldom leave the dock. So I guess it would be seldomeerrrrr, which could be equated to NEVER. However we do use the run about, dink and kyaks most days, so we are out on the water.

I am with FF about having each electronics being able to operate separately, have a back up and Furuno is what most commercial use. Rayathone was the preferred but since they went bundled they lost the commercial market. 14 years ago we up graded with Raythone with each electronic separate. I might consider a brand other then Furuno as a back up but not primary. I been looking at the newer broad ban radar that give better detail for short distances as a back up for the long distant Raythone. Not sure of the brand but Garmin is in the running.

Instrument I don’t need/really other than the basic RPM, water temp, oil pressure, and DC volts/amps with alarms. I don’t trust either, gauges/alarms, so having a walk around/stand up engine room is nice as I can see, feel, hear, and smell what is going on. Also having a single engine is nice because you have easy full access to the engine.

Which brings us the age old single vs. twin engine discussion. I was very reluctant to buy the Eagle because it was a single engine. However, after talking to the commercial that run the DD 671, 24/7 for weeks, 30+ years of proven reliability, and available parts and serve, I changed my mind. In other words I would not want the newest state of the art engine, or if parts and service where not available.

Phil Fill.. Great read. How do you feel about wireless remote? Yes on the engine walk through. Sounds, smells are always a great tool in combinnation with instruments. Every power plant will talk to you if you just open your ears and nose. Just like diving your car. Feel, sounds and smell will tell you more sometime then any guage will. When running, how offten do you do a walk through?

Thanks for your thoughts on the electronics. Why Raythone as the main and furuno as the back up, because of commercial use? Any input on that would be welcomed.

Thanks

H. Foster

Electronics Redundancy...

We run a furuno Navnet VX2 system on our boat. It is fully redundant. no single point of failure can take the system down.

We have two displays
Each display has its own GPS sensor
Each display has its own chart chip.
Each display is fed from a separate breaker

The radar is non redundant. In a boat your size I'd go with two radars, each tied to a separate display.

The black box sounder is non redundant but we carry a spare.
We have two identical transducers.
We also have a interphase foward looking sonar as a separate system.

Engine and generator alarm and shutdowns...

All modern engine packages have an alarm system built in. Even my mechanical Cummins have that. New electronic engines are better yet for alarming.

A modern generator package has an alarm and shutdown built in. My Northern lights has a one, and I assume you'll be going with a Northern Lights generator as they are pretty much the unit others are measured against.

Thanks Ksanders
I will be doing pretty much the same thing when comes to breaking down the systems.. As after as the generator, the standard package are 2 Onan eQD 32kw, 220v 60hz.. I have just glanced at the Northern Lights Spec to see which is better for our needs. I will take a close look that is for sure.

Thanks My Friend.

H.Foster

We were moored on the Ocean Alexander/Fleming/Alaskan dock and most of the 75+ ft have a wireless remote which seem to work fine. then new boats have electrinic control so it would be easier to have a wireless remote. To high tech and expensive for me. When out I set the auto on a compass heading and use the wire remote only to steer around something in the water. The auto has a soft pad which I mostly steer with rather than the helm wheel. I would not miss the remote that much. However, the helm wheels has a bigger pump so when maneuvering I usually use the wheel as it’s quicker. The auto pilot pump can not be to big because when out and about 90% of the correction are small. If the pump was a bigger it would over compensate and be correcting most of the time.

Once you get the know and feel, you really do not need the gauges. Like you said it’s like driving a car, you just know. While the engine is warming up and we are untying several times, once we are in open water and up to speed, check again, then every ½ hour. The ER door is by the bathroom door, so it’s down 3 steps to the salon and then down another 4 steps, so it’s easy quick to pop in and out.

To get in the ER, I use the 671 exchange cooler as a hand hold, then the manifold as railing while walking the length of the engine looking for leeks/fluids. They are warm but not to hot to be able to keep my hand on them. Then I feel the raw water pump/hoses, to cool my warm hand, and look to see what the fuel vacuum gages read. Finally for about 30 second look/feel/listen/smell how things are. The ER is warm but usually not enough to make me glow/sweat but warm.

The Eagle came with old out dated Rayathone electronics which dated the boat, so we up dated. 15 years a go Rayathone was well thought of both pleasure and commercial as they were mfg in the US and had service centers vs Furuno which was foreign made and not many service/part centers. So we up graded with Rayathone. Today it would be Furuno. Raymarine start foreign mfg and bundling systems so they lost the market. If you walk the commercial dock 75+% are Furuno.

FF and Phil Fill. You guys are great. Thanks you so much for all your input and skill.
My Grand father was a skipper on the Great lakes. He steamed them for 50 years. He satrted back in the day of coal as a kid. He worked his way up to to be a skipper. I made a lot of runs with him as a young Lad and teenager. He showed me so much about the Lakes and how to Navigate on them and how to handle the large boats.

Sextant. Know it. Paper Charter. Know them and compass is a must have. That's all my G. Father used. When with him, I always walked the boat with him as he checked everything and I do mean everything. He always told me. "Boy take care of your vessel and it will take care of you when you need her."

I had alot of respect for him and he tought me so much just as you guys are teaching me now about the ins and out of trawlers and what is needed to take care of her. Much respect is given to all of you from my side. Thank you.

H. Foster

FF
Got you on the compass part and understood. Thanks
I have used temperature Gun (infrared therometer w/ laser sight) to double check my power plant temps on the vessels I have owned. Guages can be wrong, which happen to me on a v-6 diesel I once had. it's fast and easy to use and I have 2 of them. LOL

Thanks.

H.Foster

One of the first big decisions a boat that size will need , is weather a noisemaker will operate 24/7/365 or if night will be silent time.

There would be a big difference in outfitting either choice.

Mostly as it concerns refrigeration.

Since there is boodles of room I would look at Sun Frost (www.sunfrost.com/) for a DC fridge and freezers.

Big ,very well insulated and a quality product. Fast simple and seamless.

Second choice (to my mind) would be a custom top loading set of fridge and freezers with 4 inch in fridge and 6 in freezer of the best insulation I could find.

There are evacuated panels that have great ratings , but you would need to design the box to those sizes.

IF the boat were really being setup for "Silent Ship" as much as possible probably large eutetic plates with the compressor either driven with hyd , or a 240v Copeland scroll unit , should result in the least noisemaker daily run time..

How to handle refrigeration , probably the highest long term power drain , would determine the power , AC , batts or Hyd for most of the vessel systems.

If the chief likes propane for cooking silent is really easy.

If the noisemaker will be on for 4-8 hours a day just to cook , refrigeration becomes much easier, and a water maker might free lots of tank space for other storage..

Thoughts?

FF

Once again thanks for the great input F.F There is so much to look at and so many things to take into account. I know Fleming has a rep for being a quiet vessel. but how quiet with noisemarker onboard is somthing to look at. Not looked into what kind of efefrigeration I want (Oh the link you send will not open will look it up Thanks) as of yet. I know the Fleming use the four burner induction cooktop which we like. I am sure there will be things that will give us issues along the way, but in time that will be cover came.

Thank again for your thoughts.

H. Foster

Wow! Sounds like you are going to have a AC power HOG. Most slips and marinas do not have that much AC power. Many only have 50 amps 120 volts AC which is not near enough for a Fleming power HOG. You might want to rethink that one?

The Eagle was an AC power hog when we bought her. Our first moorage had 30 amps which is like two small space heaters. After the 100th time resetting the breaker, we come to the conclusion something had to change. Out came the convection over and electric cook top which was replaced with propane, and we installed a Webasto diesel boiler heating and hot water which uses 2 amps AC instead of 50+ amps. The refrigeration on the back deck we are going to change to AC/DC/Propane so when at anchor will be on propane. In the dead of winter we use 20 amps 120 volts AC.

However, in the summer with the air conditioning running we are just under 50 maps. I been working on a crazy idea for air conditioning using the Webasto water pump, hose and exchangers. In stead of heating the coolant, freeze/cool the coolant. We have a big DC refrigeration box that that could be used. Then we would be able to get back down in the 20 to 30 amps range.

So if you are planning on being a live aboard and cruising you might want to re think thing about some things otherwise you will be running a gen set 24/7. Been there, done that, very noisy and expsensive.

"I am sure there will be things that will give us issues along the way, but in time that will be cover came."

ALL of these issues are better handled at the clean sheet of paper , rather than the crowbar , toss , and retrofit point.

Like NOW.

No noisemaker , NO HOT FOOD , double ugh.

There is always the kerosene Primus back up , but the danger is once you learn how easy and great a Primus actually is for most cooking the fancy stove and special pots will stand idle.

For inshore marina to marina cruising I suggest you look in the archives for Load Shedding.

This simple wiring addition will allow a really hungry boat live well on small electric.

Basically a ll the on board items get a priority concept.

Then a simple set of relays (Grainger) will allow the refrigerator to cut off the freezer when it comes on. The freezer will cut off a hot water heater when it comes on. A simple switch removes power from the load shedding relays when the 30KW noisemaker is in operation , but not the 6KW.

IN theory many boats could Live Well on a 15A power hose , with a large TRACE 4024 (or 2) and a really large set of house batteries.

Many marinas are not friendly to noisemaker operation of a boat in a slip.

Here either a dry stack , or really well engineered water lift muffler will be a big help.

FF

With this style setup

Phil Fill. I agree that one has to look at what kind of amps on the AC side as well as the DC side that are needed to operate in the range one wants. Great point!! Looking at the over all picture is sometime hard until you get to the point where it is right in front of you.

All the fleming's I have been on 55 thru 75' has had it pro's and con's just like all the other Vessel I have been on. The 2 75's that I was on did not seem to have any issuse with the AC amps in port. But there again I did not check what the amp range was at the marina. That was my mistake, and something I need to look into. Thanks for pointing it out. Propane is always option just like DC refrigerator like FF said. Finding that Sweet Spot comes into play once again. Finding the right balance on all the power is key.

I Like your Idea on the air conditioning and it is not to crazy my Friend and I wish you the best of luck on it. Keep us posted on how it all works out.

Thanks

H.Foster

FF. Right you are on a clean sheet of papper.. One reason why I am here is to pick the brians of smarter people then me on this subject. Like yourself and Phil, and others. The mapping out stage is being done now even before I place my order for the Vessel. All info at this stage is great info in helping to map everything out. I have many things to research, many shows to go too and many things to learn in between that time. As I said before. R&D is slow. That is why I started researching things well over a year ago. In the end it will be more then a 3 year project and I know when that end comes I will have the vessel that will fit us.

Thanks for you input FF.

H. Foster

IF I were working out the vessel and her systems , my preference would be for a Silent Ship.

I lived aboard in a marina for decades and far and away prefer an anchorage to a dock with 100A - 240v power hose , and ZERO privacy.

A boat on the hook will swing naturally , reducing the need for a noisemaker and canned air for comfort.An entirely!!! different lifestyle.

IF the silent ship concept is used it has many upsides , and no real downside , when at the power hose, or with the noisemaker operating.

Underway on the main engine , almost all shipboard functions will require a cruise AC power package , along with BIG DC.

My preference would be an engine driven hyd. 6KW - 12KW (or ???) with a 300A 24V OTS alternator.On a commercial style engine frequently these can be drive pad mounted, no belts to maintain.

Only big DC can charge house batts properly and rapidly with a multi-stage V regulator.

Figure out the on board life style living design GOAL,
as even a circumnavigation is 90% in port .

And as many have posted the simpler you work out the systems ,
the less time and money spent on flying in mechanics with parts.

FF

F.F. Allvery good points and I do like the silent ship idea. What is your thoughts on this on the Dc side?

DC​

Main ships system is 24V DC
12V DC available via two 20 amp DC-DC converters & 12V battery backup on
flybridge
Battery disconnect and selector switches accessible from outside e/room
House battery bank consisting of 12pcs 6 volt Lifeline AGM batteries connected
in series parallel to provide 1200 A/H’s capacity at 24 volts.
Two stacked 3500 watt Outback pure sine-wave inverters with 170 amp (@ 24
volts) battery charging capacity
Two additional high output auxiliary alternators on main engines, 140 amp @ 24
volts
Additional 24V DC battery banks for each engine/genset charged by MAN
original alternators plus additional dedicated battery charger
Switching allows paralleling of batteries
Battery Monitor for house bank
DC load distribution panel with breakers and meters back-lit with dimmer
Alarm panel for engine functions plus bilge, fire, raw water etc.​

Repeater panel in crew cabin area

Thanks

H.Foster

Brian, if you are really serious, some suggestions to broaden your base:

• Many large yachts are advertised as, but few are truly qualiifed as blue water vessels. Vessel history counts for a lot.
• You may care to cruise the Yacht Forums website, there is considerable large yacht experience from which to pick, choose and communicate.
• For long ocean passages and a very large blue water owner base from which to glean knowledge, you owe it to yourlself to visit Dana Point and talk with the Nordhvan group.
• For possibly the best offshore knowledge existant today from a designer, builder, writer and expert talk with Steve Dashew.
• Last but not least, I may have missed it, what is your previous hands on boat owner experience particularly deep salt water?

House battery bank consisting of 12pcs 6 volt Lifeline AGM batteries connected
in series parallel to provide 1200 A/H’s capacity at 24 volts.

Great the alts on the main engine will frequently have loads of time , so the use of smaller alts is fine.

However
"Two stacked 3500 watt Outback pure sine-wave inverters with 170 amp (@ 24
volts) battery charging capacity".

Here the smaller (any under 10KW ) noisemaker may not be able to power these units to capacity.

The use /expense of AGM is because they can be restored at a more rapid rate than 1/3 the price wet batts.

For the shortest noisemaker time weather a 6KW will work for anchor / nite loads will have to be noodled on paper..

Choices, choices, shorter noisemaker run time , or longer?

FF

offshore trawlers

hfoster said:

Hi to everyone. I am new to trawler forums and I wish to get some opinions from you trawler pros on some trawlers and outfitting them. Just a quick background on myself, I have steamed the Great lakes for years. I have piloted vessels from 16’ up to 85’ on the lake and have enjoyed every second of it.

With that said, my wife and I are looking to make the jump to the sal****er realm. We are planning on purchasing a new trawler in the next year and fitting it to our needs. We will be living aboard this vessel and will be making long voyages, like voyages from Port Charlotte Fl to the Hawaii Island and also do the great loop if and when the mood strikes us.

I am fully aware of the cost of purchasing a new Trawler and outfitting it. We have the capital to achieve our goals, so that is not an issue for us, thank God. We have worked hard to finally enjoy life in our early 50’s

Now here is what I have come up with and I would like the Trawler Pro’s input to see what their opinions are.

Vessel. The New Fleming 78.
Spec. Out with some of these options.

Fuel Tanks 3,500 USG. Water 500 USG. Black Water 250 USG. Gray Water 250 USG.
2 Lube oil tanks 95 USG
2 ONAN EQD 32 KW 60 hz Generators.
Power plant. Twin Man V12 1550 Hp
Furuno. 3D (Main)
Garmin Plotter (Back up)
Radar X7 96nm
Autopilot (Not sure yet on brand)
Sonar (Not sure yet on brand)
Radio VHF (Not sure yet on brand)
Tender minim of 15’
Plus all safety items that will be needed.

If you have a different opinion on the Fleming 78 or any of the other equipment, please specify your reasoning as to why or why not. I do understand that everyone has their own opinion of their favorite vessels but that is not what I am looking for. I am looking quality, safety, longevity but most of all a vessel that fits our needs. I’m sure I’ve left out many features that may be needed but this makes a good start for me to continue my research on trawlers and all desired equipment. Thank you for your time and patience.

Cordially,

H. Foster

Click to expand...

I am thinking that you may require a full displacement boat.
not semi displacement which are costal cruisers

The amp load can be reduced by timers and relays so as one shuts off another can turn on. We still have timers on the electric water heater, battery charger, two of the four electric heaters and the two electric refrigerators on the back deck. We have found as you start cruising moving around that the dock power available as low as 20 amps. I plan on replacing the two refrigerators with AC/DC/Propane, as one quit so we use it as storage. One of my concerns is having enough ICE CREAM between ports.


However, FF and I tend to disagree on Anchoring vs. Dock and inverter/battery banks vs gen sets.

I would caution having a boat with 24 volt DC, unless the wiring was sized larger for 12 volt DC. As the volts go up the amps drops and so does the required wire size. So you can go from 12 volt to 24 volt but you may not be able to go from 24 volt to 12 volt. So be sure to check out the wire size. Also 24 volt DC items are limited and more expensive. There is nothing on a 55 to 75 ft boat that requires 24 volt, and the only thing that requires might 240 volts AC is a drier, so I would caution against 240 volts AC also.

As mentioned we have a 5 KW cruise gen set which is belt drive by the main 671 when out and about and has an electric clutch so it free wheel when not in use. The big 10 KW/Perkins gen set is mainly used to power the hydraulic pump for the bow thruster/get home, and at anchor/dock. I will also carry a small portable diesel gen set as back up to the back up.

I am not a believer in inverter and large battery banks for larger boats. Better to spend the money on sound proofing, and running a small gen set especially if the boat has a high AC power demand. Inverter and battery bank might be OK for evening and/or night if you turn off the high amp AC stuff. I like my electric blanket, air conditioning, pop corn and ice cream.

Gee, I don't know if we want to een start duscuss coastal crusing and crossing oceans, whihc should be a completely different discussion. Rather than get miss mashed in this discussion. I think NOT

Heck, why not have it all (12-volt DC, 24-volt DC and 110-volt AC)?

Wow. FF, Phil Fill and Markpierce. Some great stuff you guys. FF is right! Choices, choices! After reading everyones posts that is what it is coming down to in many ways. CHOICES. And I have alot of them to make. You guys have really made me put the old thinking cap on that is for sure and I thank you all for that. I am so glad I started this project early and that I have gotten some great input in helpping me make those choices.

Phil Fill also has a great point on the 2 different cruising realms apples to apples. As I have said before. I would to have the best of both worlds. May be I will not be able to do that but one does not know until they try.

Thanks again everyone for your input and your time. It has been a great help to me !!! THANK YOU

H. Foster

There's a small grass roots push in the marine industry to go from 12 to 24V due to wire run length and how wasteful 12V wiring is. Most systems are easily run with 24V components.

I think one article was on the Westlawn site...

The more modern concept , and cheapest to install, and later modify is the "ring circuit.

Here a heavy set of wiring is simply run around the boat in a complete circle , from the batts to the bow , and back on the other side of the hull. This wire is protected with large class "T" fuses.

Where ever power is required , say a pump, the lines are tapped into with OTS connectors . this circuit tap will have a CB to protect the smaller wires , and a fuse to protect the individual item at the item.

Of/ on is controlled by a wireless setup , with an actual local off/ on switch , should the wireless fail.

Near idiots can install or change the wiring , yet the system can be monitored down to the last .0001A if required.

Load shedding is simply part of a controller program.

FF

FF said:

The more modern concept , and cheapest to install, and later modify is the "ring circuit.

Here a heavy set of wiring is simply run around the boat in a complete circle , from the batts to the bow , and back on the other side of the hull. This wire is protected with large class "T" fuses.

Where ever power is required , say a pump, the lines are tapped into with OTS connectors . this circuit tap will have a CB to protect the smaller wires , and a fuse to protect the individual item at the item.

Of/ on is controlled by a wireless setup , with an actual local off/ on switch , should the wireless fail.

Near idiots can install or change the wiring , yet the system can be monitored down to the last .0001A if required.

Load shedding is simply part of a controller program.

FF

Click to expand...

This concept has been talked about for a while now. I had read where one of the major companies was going to actually build a boat for production using this concept. That was two or three years ago. Does anyone know if it has happened. As a reference it was about the time the Pod Drives were starting to come out.