Caught Another One

Having traversed the area I must say it is it well marked with red and green markers to travel in between to avert confusion.
It is the cardinal buoys that are used which are less known that cause issues.

Soo-Valley said:

Having traversed the area I must say it is it well marked with red and green markers to travel in between to avert confusion.
It is the cardinal buoys that are used which are less known that cause issues.

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So in essence, stay between the markers least you be keel holed.

ben2go said:

So in essence, stay between the markers least you be keel holed.

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Aye matey.

Soo-Valley said:

... <snipped > The black over yellow over black is not recognised by most and not seen often enough.

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The "black over yellow over black" is the Cardinal system, and is slowly but surely taking over the waterways. It's a simple system - there's only four markers and they all indicate safe water.

The "Red right returning" system is the lateral system - it's confusing to many (as it completely depends on the seemingly endless interpretations of "returning") and not implemented the same around the world (North America is backwards to the rest of the world).

While you personally may not like the shift, it's well in play and not going away. Best to spend the 10 minutes needed to learn the Cardinal system

The lateral system is not based on "returning" its about increasing buoy numbers.


It should be no more confusing with a chart than any other system....I won't say it's perfect...but it does work.


I have yet to see any suggestion that the Cardinal system is becoming the standard in the US (or even Canada).

From the IALA - INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MARINE AIDS TO NAVIGATION AND LIGHTHOUSE AUTHORITIES

Region A includes Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Africa, the Gulf and some Asian countries whereas Region B comprises of North, South, Central America, Japan, Korea and the Philippines.

https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-navigation/iala-buoyage-system-for-mariners-types-of-marks/


The buoyage system used in Canada corresponds to the International Association of marine aids to navigation Lighthouse Authorities (IALA) Maritime Buoyage System which has been adopted by all major maritime nations in the world. This system includes lateral, isolated danger, cardinal and special buoys.
For lateral buoys, the IALA Maritime Buoyage System divides the world into two regions, “A” and “B”. Within Region “B”, which includes Canada, starboard hand buoys are red and port hand buoys are green. Within Region “A”, the application of these colours is reversed with red to port and green to starboard. Bifurcation buoys are similarly affected in that the predominant colour of starboard bifurcation buoys is red in Region “B” and green in Region “A” and that of port bifurcation buoys is green in Region “B” and red in Region “A”. All other aspects of the IALA Maritime Buoyage System are the same in both Regions “A” and “B”.


http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Aids-To-Navigation-System-2011-Buoys

psneeld said:

The lateral system is not based on "returning" its about increasing buoy numbers.


It should be no more confusing with a chart than any other system....I won't say it's perfect...but it does work.

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Not disagreeing - it does work. But like it or not, it's being replaced...

Nikko said:

Not disagreeing - it does work. But like it or not, it's being replaced...

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Not by any authority I can find...you have a link to a source?

Nikko said:

.....

While you personally may not like the shift, it's well in play and not going away. Best to spend the 10 minutes needed to learn the Cardinal system

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you appear to be confusing me with someone. I will leave it at that.

psneeld said:

Not by any authority I can find...you have a link to a source?

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Nope - just know that slowly but surely Cardinal's are taking over (in Canada)

Transaxial said:

I believe the drying passageway you refer to is on the south east end of Newcastle Island. Between Newcastle and Protection Island, which is the island that the Dingy Dock Pub is on. Right in that area is the dock for Newcastle and an area of mooring buoys rented by the natives. Just to the west of there is the main Vancouver Island, where all the marinas are located. Between there and Newcastle island is Newcastle Channel which runs parallel to the main island and connects Nanaimo Harbour on the south and Departure Bay (ferry terminal) on the north. Just into the channel from the south is Oregon Rock which claims many boats every year. And appropriately adjacent to Oregon Rock on Vancouver Island is the old Nanaimo Shipyard. Oregon Rock is marked with the red and green signs and lights to get by this huge rock in Newcastle Channel but this is where the confusion starts. RED RIGHT RETURN is established from the south, from Nanaimo Harbour. But you can also enter the channel from the north end via Departure Bay which makes the signs and lights wrong. Very confusing!

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The direction of "return" is also the direction of a flooding tide, which is marked on the chart at the Departure Bay end of Newcastle channel. Not confusing at all if you are entering from that end.

Nikko said:

Nope - just know that slowly but surely Cardinal's are taking over (in Canada)

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Not really, you may see more of them marking hazards, but they are "part" of a system, not a replacement.

Until I see ANY confirmation that the Cardinal System is replacing the international I ateral system I would have to say you posts are in error.


And I will acknowledge my error if someone can come up with some sort of proof of the change.

koliver said:

The direction of "return" is also the direction of a flooding tide, which is marked on the chart at the Departure Bay end of Newcastle channel. Not confusing at all if you are entering from that end.

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It doesn't make them "wrong"...you are supposed to review a chart and if the buoy numbers are increasing, the red is on the right, if decreasing then they will be on the left.

I would NEVER use direction of current to determine buoyage, especially if tidal.

psneeld said:

Not really, you may see more of them marking hazards, but they are "part" of a system, not a replacement.

Until I see ANY confirmation that the Cardinal System is replacing the international I ateral system I would have to say you posts are in error.


And I will acknowledge my error if someone can come up with some sort of proof of the change.

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Wow - amazed at how an anecdotal conversation went sour and polarized. I'm not defending systems, I'm not defining systems, I'm not the one you look for for documentation on anything TC does. I simply entered a conversation and brought with it observation based on my experience, both as a recreational mariner and as a professional mariner. Obviously your mileage varies...

Best of luck boating, stay away from the thin waters no matter how they're marked and hope we can meet over a beer sometime..

My mileage doesn't vary, it just focuses on what I know or what I can prove to educate the forum.

Nothing sour, just making sure as much truth surfaces as possible.

I posted relavant links that show why buoyage is the way it is and will remain in the near future.

I also gave a better example of red right returning than the nursery rhyme taught in boating safety classes to help novices remember.

So get upset if you must, I'm not, but I want boaters to understand what is currently going on in their world, not something I believe to be in error.

I will be happy to buy if I am wrong....

psneeld said:

My mileage doesn't vary, it just focuses on what I know or what I can prove to educate the forum.

Nothing sour, just making sure as much truth surfaces as possible.

I posted relavant links that show why buoyage is the way it is and will remain in the near future.

I also gave a better example of red right returning than the nursery rhyme taught in boating safety classes to help novices remember.

So get upset if you must, I'm not, but I want boaters to understand what is currently going on in their world, not something I believe to be in error.

I will be happy to buy if I am wrong....

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Roger
Out

psneeld said:

..........

I will be happy to buy if I am wrong....

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Really, is that if anyone proves you are wrong? I got nothing, but will let you know. LOL

tiltrider1 said:

Canada believes in Darwinism, USA feels they can fix stupid.

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+1 for Charles

koliver said:

The direction of "return" is also the direction of a flooding tide, which is marked on the chart at the Departure Bay end of Newcastle channel. Not confusing at all if you are entering from that end.

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Wow. Keith, I’ve not known this. You would think after over 50 years I would have stumbled across this (or at least remembered it).

Is this generally true everywhere? (At least in the US and Canada).

dhays said:

Wow. Keith, I’ve not known this. You would think after over 50 years I would have stumbled across this (or at least remembered it).

Is this generally true everywhere? (At least in the US and Canada).

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Not reliably so....at least not everywhere....

Red, right, numbers increasing is the answer.

psneeld said:

Not reliably so....at least not everywhere....

Red, right, numbers increasing is the answer.

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I’ll have to think about the areas I’m familiar with in Puget Sound. Off the top of my head, the Swinomish Channel doesn’t follow that, as the direction of the channel markers change part way through the channel yet the current flows North on the flood and South on the ebb (I think). Of course, the Swinomish is a created channel rather than a natural tidal body of water.

dhays said:

Wow. Keith, I’ve not known this. You would think after over 50 years I would have stumbled across this (or at least remembered it).

Is this generally true everywhere? (At least in the US and Canada).

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Some places are still difficult, like entering Silva Bay from the east, you have to leave the green mark to port, which suggests you are "returning", but there is nothing on the chart to help you determine which way the tide runs. There are also places where the tide refuses to be rule oriented, like Spanish Banks in English Bay, where the river current sweeping around Point Grey is dominant and both ebb and flood currents tend to set to the east. But as a very general rule, this seems to work around here.
psn's rule of noting the direction of increasing numbers doesn't work here. Flood current sets generally to the north, bouy numbers decrease as you go north, red is generally on your right as you go north, so his rule is flawed here, while the nursery rhyme works.

The entrance from the eats to Silva Bay is an enigma. That is a prime location for a cardinal buoy. Just past that port marker is an exit to the west which completes the red right returning. While correct, it has caused a lot of unnecessary groundings.