Lost Steering

Today we tried to take my 1986 38 Marine Trader Sundeck to the marina where we haul out. We backed out of the slip to discover I had no steering. Quick trouble shooting did not reveal a solution so I had to get her back to my slip using the bow thruster. This was at 4AM so no helpers available at the dock.


After getting tied up I started trying to find the problem. What I discovered is that the wheel at the upper helm turns with no resistance, basically you can just spin it. The wheel at the lower helm turns with some resistance but you cannot feel the stops. neither upper or lower will turn the rudder. If I turn on the auto pilot I can get it to turn the wheel for me.


The steering is hydraulic but there is not a separate pump and as near as I can tell(from the manual) each wheel is is a pump. It must be that you turn the wheel and that creates pressure. All of the hydraulic lines are copper and I found no leaks.


Is it possible there is a slow leak which over time has lower the fluid below a working level on the fly bridge and causes less effect to the lower helm but does not allow enough pressure from the lower to turn the rudder. I believe the Autohelm closes valves and is not effected by that the lower pressure at the helms.


The other problem is, if the is the case how do you refill and bleed the hydraulics since the plugs are pretty much inaccessible on the top of the steering units. Any advice is appreciated.

Is there a reservoir tank with a pressure guage? This is the usual setup with a Hynautic system.
You add fluid at the tank and you pump up the pressure with a hand pump. If the system won't hold pressure, you have a leak somewhere.

Had the same experience earlier this year. Tech at Turner Marine in Mobile found that the upper pump/reservoir was bad - and needed to be replaced. Paid dearly for that and left, only to discover the problem returned. Finally found that the pump was shipped with a plastic 'shipping plug', that was supposed to be replaced with a brass plug upon install. The plastic plug had split and fluid was leaking out and air was getting in. On our upper helm there is a remote for the spotlight that can be removed with two screws, and the filler plug on the pump/tank is directly under that. Teleflex Capilano system. It still has some play, so next will remove the hydraulic ram above the rudders and have it checked

Edit - I should add that Turner has stood by their work and is paying for the follow up work done at another marina - and I've heard that tech is no longer there.

Mark,

Welcome aboard. I see the boat is in Tawas. Where do you haul out at?

My system does not have a separate reservoir tank. We looked high and low for that until we found the system in a manual that matched what I have.


I haul out at Bay Harbour in Bay City so it is a six hour cruise from E Tawas. Next year we will be moving the boat to Cheboygan where we use to keep our sailboat.

It will be useful to get picture and/or model/brand of your steering pump.
Often the steering as a reservoir of fluid and the plug is right on top of the steering unit.

One advice: always check steering before leaving the dock, you should always get the same number of wheel turns back to back, if not better not to move.

L

Guessing that you just have a small leak somewhere. Obviously the upper helm pump is higher than the lower helm pump so it will run out of oil first as the system leaks. A reservoir at the upper pump will help as it will take longer to drain but the solution is to figure out where the oil is going.

Probably not a fluid leak but an air leak. Find the reservoir and there will be an air gauge on the top. Pump it with bicycle pump to about 6 pounds (I think). Mine goes out about every third year, usually over the winter. I carry a bike pump for emergency.

You may be a little low on fluid, maybe a tablespoon or two. you can add this with a turkey baster with a little piece of tube force onto the end.

pete

If you have seastar system the upper helm has a vented fill plug, the lower a solid plug. try filling the upper helm pump and spinning wheel as you do it --then putting vented plug back spin it a dozen times -then wait 2 days and recheck.

Can you take the plug out of the upper helm and get a barb fitting with the same thread. Then put a hose on the barb fitting and try to fill the pump. Seastar has a filler for their helms like this.

Comodave said:

Can you take the plug out of the upper helm and get a barb fitting with the same thread. Then put a hose on the barb fitting and try to fill the pump. Seastar has a filler for their helms like this.

Click to expand...

Not needed- all you need is a small funnel. The seastar tube filler that fits their quart hydraulic fluid container is for changing helm pumps or rams.

The OP said the plugs is pretty much inaccessible so I doubt that he will be able to get a funnel and a quart of fluid in the filler hole. With a hose on the plug he may be able to route the hose somewhere he can pour fluid into the pump.

I installed a Teleflex remote kit to a accessible location on the dash, make filling super easy......

rochepoint said:

I installed a Teleflex remote kit to a accessible location on the dash, make filling super easy......

Click to expand...

That is what I was getting at, didn’t know that a kit was available.

Comodave said:

That is what I was getting at, didn’t know that a kit was available.

Click to expand...

That's cool. But you still must remove the vented top plug to install it. LOL

Well the vent plug has to come off in any case in order to add fluid. So I would replace the plug with the extender kit and run it up out the top of the helm so future fills are easy.

I talked to a mechanic and he told me the knob on the front of the wheel is the vent and fill opening. Being an ex sailboat I had assumed it was a helm brake. Hr told me slowly add hydraulic fluid toll full then let it sit overnight and if needed add more. He says it will not be perfect but should get me back to my haul out marina. I will try it this weekend.

How about a couple of photos of your setup?

After you fill it I would cycle it back and forth for a while to get some of the air out and then recheck the level.

You really should snap a few pics. If the knob your mechanic pointed to is directly below the helm shaft, it is not a vent/fill. It is an adjustment knob for a Capilano system.

Went out for a sunset dinner cruise with the wife and on the way home, after dark, we lost steering in the pilothouse...the wheel just spun. Happily, the after steering station (it's a former commercial fishing boat with a helm in the cockpit) is lower and still worked, although with absolutely no forward visibility! The admiral leaned out the port side of the cockpit and I leaned out the starboard and somehow we threaded out way though the marina to our slip.

There was a tiny leak in the seal at the rear helm. I wasn't checking the hydraulic fluid often enough and it suddenly got low enough to stop working at the upper helm. Replaced the old o-rings, topped off the system, and it's all good...and we have a new item on our startup checklist!

I looked up the Capilano system and that looks like mine. Because of the location I cannot pour fluid in it. I am thinking of cutting a hole above it and putting in an inspection port. Where it is located I doubt the level has ever been checked so this will make it easy for me to check.

The knob below the wheel adjust the steering ratio/number of turns lock to lock. The upper pump is the reservoir. Had the same system on our last boat. Current boat is a sail boat with hydraulic steering and it does have a separate reservoir that needs to be pump up.

Based on the age/size of your boat it is probably a Capilano 250V. If the pump block is silver it does not contain internal check valves. Once you fill it with fluid, you must open the bleed screw on the Uniflow Valve located near your steering cylinder(s) in order to bleed the system. See attached. http://www.boatsteer.com/assets/capilano_steering_instructions.pdf

Not helpful this time, but, since the same thing happened to us at the start of our sea trial, we now check both helms and all shift / throttle controls before starting the engine.

you say it is a sundeck. the reservoir is probably under the bed in the aft cabin. it probably has a fitting to add fluid as well as a fitting to pressurize it with a bicycle pump.

The Celestial had a Capilano helm system, upper and lower helms. I once had to add oil to it. I found the same problem with the plug and no room. I solved that by using an old oil can with a manual finger-operated pump. I put a small vinyl hose on it and put the other end into the plug hole. Simply pumped oil until the reservoir was full. Had to tighten a connection at the ram, then purged air out of the system and never had any more problems. IIRC, the knob under the helm wheel was to adjust how many turns of the wheel it took to go from lock-to-lock.

I have a 1985 Marine Trader Sun Deck. My boat lost steering at the upper helm only about a month ago. My filler is easy to get to right above the wheel on the helm dash. I didn't see a place to add pressurize?

I am guessing I have the Capilano since it looks like what's in the diagram here. I have a small leak at my auto pilot so topping off is a normal ritual recently I noticed I have air in my line so this post is helpful, I'll try bleeding it.

I am wondering if I will have to bleed it every time I fill it?

Derik, you will have to bleed it every time you get air in it. You can tell if you have air in it by turning the wheel to one side or the other to a rudder stop. If there is any softness/squishiness when attempting to put a little pressure against the stop - there is air in it (or your flexible lines on the ram are getting too soft and are expanding under pressure - they should not). If you have some leakage in the helm pump, that may feel like softness/squishiness, but there would be no back pressure on the helm when released due to compressed air in the system, i.e., there should be virtually no "rebound" on the wheel. The Capilano helm pumps have check valves in them to prevent one helm from turning the other helm. It is normal on older systems to have a little movement on one helm when the other helm is being turned as the check valves sometimes have to have a little pressure on them to seal properly. Capilano helm systems are normally great systems and are essentially trouble free once any leaks are corrected and the system properly bled. There are rebuild kits for Capilano pumps - Google for them. If you do a rebuild yourself - be aware that as in any hydraulic system, cleanliness is paramount - a tiny speck of something can make a seal leak a lot. I don't know how your system is set up, but in the Celestial, there was a valved bypass at the ram on the rudders, which, when opened allowed hydraulic fluid to flow continuously in either direction, so that by simply turning the wheel continuously in one direction, it was possible to purge all air out of the lines. When purging, be sure that the ram is first moved lock to lock to purge any air within it, then open the bypass and purge the lines. Be sure that there is always hydraulic oil in the pump to preclude ingesting more air and that when finished purging, to close the bypass valve if there is one.

Thanks Wayne, I'll do a little investigative work to see what's going on. My theory is it was low when I bought it (I added almost a quart of fluid) Then I didn't property "purge" or burp it so it worked much better than before but eventually needed more fluid once the air bubble went away. I have added a total of about a half gallon but my leak at the auto pilot is very minimal, it appears to be an o ring on one of the bolts (black square box).