Some questions about mechanical surveys

Hello All,

I'm in the process of buying a boat. I've made an offer, it's been accepted. I've made a deposit. I've had a surveyor aboard, and it passed with flying colors. The rest of the purchase process has had to be put on hold because I'm away for work, and can't finalize anything until I get back in two more weeks.

In the mean time I've been trying, and failing, to have a mechanical survey done. It took more than a week for a mechanic to return my call. When someone finally did, I set up an appointment. Here we are three weeks later, and the job still hasn't been done. He keeps cancelling and rescheduling. Today, he didn't want to do it because it was raining, so I fired him.

The owner has a tech that he's used for years, and who knows the boat, but it doesn't sound like he does 'mechanical surveys.' The owner asked if I have a list of things I want checked. I don't.

I'm new to owning this type of boat. I've never owned a diesel engine, and I've never owned a generator. I don't have any practical experience with either. Bottom line is, I don't know what I don't know.

What should a good mechanical survey cover? Is there a punch list of items that I could give him? Is the average mechanic capable of performing a decent survey if he has a list of items to check? Are there any specialty tools he'd need that he may not have? Are there any other questions I should be asking right now?? lol.

Otherwise, all I can say is 'please tell me if this is about to explode, or cost me hundreds of billions of dollars.'

Any input would be appreciated most muchly.

EDIT: The engine is a Perkins 4.236M coupled to a BW Velvet Drive. The genny is a Yanmar, but that's all I know about it.

I have the same engine, 4-236, and its been bulletproof for the 12 years I’ve owned her; she’s now 26 years old and solid. Have you run it up to operating temp? No smoke or anything other than smooth running? If you can get it up to temp, take an oil sample and send it off for analysis. This advise is from an uneducated shade tree mechanic, fwiw.

If you're financing you probably need an official mechanical survey.

Forgot to mention, I have a Hurth gear, no problems there either.

A mechanical survey generally does not include any disassembly of the engines so not a lot of tools are needed. A photo tach is helpful to determine if the engine will turn the specified RPMs. If you are not able to get the survey done, I would want to start the engine cold and see how it starts and smokes or not. My Lehmans do smoke on start but goes away when they warm up. I would pull oil samples and have them tested. I would run the boat at full RPMs for at least 5 to 10 minutes to check for overheating. Look for belt dust and any oil leaking other than a drip. Look for a maintenance log book. Check for vibrations through the RPM range. Check the prop shafts for side play that might indicate worn cutlass bearings. Others may have things to look for and since I am not a mechanic by any means I may have missed some major items. Maybe Ski will chime in, he seems to know his stuff with engines.

Dave, I was (still am) very ignorant about engines, let alone Diesel engines. As such, I had a mechanical survey done. Like you, I just wanted someone to take a look at the engines, run them under load and up to max RPM and see if there were any red flags. In addition, an oil sample was taken. An oil sample is a good idea because apparently people that know stuff (unlike me) can get valuable information from it.

If you can’t find anyone to do a survey, then it might be worth having the mechanic that has worked on the boat come and run the boat and answer the question “What if any repair or maintenance items would you recommend I take care of when I buy the boat?”. It might have some value.

Sure sorry you have had trouble getting a proper mechanical survey.
Rain? Really?

Greetings,
Mr. W. Hold on there a minute partner! You can't leave us hanging like that. What are you buying? The world wants to know.

If my memory is correct, and that is an iffy thing lately, he is buying an aluminum trawler that is very nice looking. Unfortunately my memory is not able of recalling the brand...

Where is the boat?

The final portion of a mechanical survey is done during the sea trial. All Diesel engines have a wide open throttle rpm rating and can be run at that speed. You can do this yourself. Run the engine at wot for 10 minutes. Does it reach the spec’d Rpm? (No? Overpropped) 2. Does it overheat?

I was onboard a boat I owned during its sea trial when I sold it. It’s a painful experience to witness, as most of us don’t do this enough. However, it absolutely must be done and the boat must be capable of running at that load for that period of time.

Dave, does your hull surveyor have a mechanical surveyor he has worked with? Failing that I suggest just corralling a local marine mechanic to go over it, but you`d have to be there as he might not be a report type of guy. In my limited experience insurers want a hull survey but don`t ask for mechanical, don`t know about financiers though.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. W. Hold on there a minute partner! You can't leave us hanging like that. What are you buying? The world wants to know.

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This here is the vessel in question

Comodave said:

If my memory is correct, and that is an iffy thing lately, he is buying an aluminum trawler that is very nice looking. Unfortunately my memory is not able of recalling the brand...

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menzies said:

Where is the boat?

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She's in Toronto.

During the survey and sea trial, we did run the engine through it's paces. We took her through the RPM range and compared oil pressure, temperature, and boat speeds with no major issues found. There is a discrepancy between actual RPMs and what is displayed on the tach since the owner changed out the alternator, but we didn't have the equipment to determine how much of a difference it was. Idle was also a bit low and needs to be adjusted a bit. We ran her at WOT for a good 10 minutes without any issues. The surveyor said there was some vibration, but it wasn't anything that raised any red flags with me. We checked for play in the cutlass bearing, and found none. There was very little smoke at any point during the run, even at startup.

We also took oil samples from the Perkins and the Genset, and both came back from Toromont Cat with no issues.

All of this in mind, I've been wondering if I actually NEED a mechanical survey. I'm still coming down in favor of yes, if for no other reason than my own peace of mind. I think what we did in the first survey will be enough to satisfy the bank and the insurance folks.

BruceK said:

Dave, does your hull surveyor have a mechanical surveyor he has worked with? Failing that I suggest just corralling a local marine mechanic to go over it, but you`d have to be there as he might not be a report type of guy. In my limited experience insurers want a hull survey but don`t ask for mechanical, don`t know about financiers though.

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One of the leads I tried to chase down was one recommended by the surveyor, but it didn't work out. I wish I could be there for it. There's so much I could stand to learn in the engine room, but I want to have as much done as I can while I'm gone. Hopefully all i'll have to do when I get back is sign the papers and start cruising.

Try giving these guys a call

TAD for perkins engines, perkins diesel, perkins marine, perkins parts, perkins generators, perkins service

Perkins experts. Well regarded. I think Steve D'Antonio spoke highly of them in a recent article.

Your prospective boat is beautiful. The only thing that I noticed from the pictures were that it looks like the injectors have been replaced & the valve cover has been off, both of which could be a good thing and a part of regular maintenance. The only mechanical thing I noticed that would be of concern to me was that it appears that the reduction gear has been separated from the clutch at some point. That wouldn't be construed as regular maintenance so I would have to question the reason.

boomerang said:

Your prospective boat is beautiful. The only thing that I noticed from the pictures were that it looks like the injectors have been replaced & the valve cover has been off, both of which could be a good thing and a part of regular maintenance. The only mechanical thing I noticed that would be of concern to me was that it appears that the reduction gear has been separated from the clutch at some point. That wouldn't be construed as regular maintenance so I would have to question the reason.

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Thank you! I sure am smitten with her.
The owner mentioned having the transmission rebuilt in the last few years, so I assume that’s part of it.

caltexflanc said:

Try giving these guys a call

TAD for perkins engines, perkins diesel, perkins marine, perkins parts, perkins generators, perkins service

Perkins experts. Well regarded. I think Steve D'Antonio spoke highly of them in a recent article.

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That’s a good idea. I think I’ll do that. Thank you!

Wayfarer said:

That’s a good idea. I think I’ll do that. Thank you!

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Talk to Sheri. She knows her Perkins.

Be careful of what constitutes red flags here.. Not to insult ones' intelligence but some experience boaters have brought things Ike this to me more than I would have thought


Things like failing to reach WOT isn't automatically overpropping, could be a foul bottom.


Breaking apart a drive train can be a cutlass replacement....


Overheating can be multiple simple things...


Etc...etc...



Could be show stoppers or hardly anything at all....so be careful not to walk away what might be a prize based on only sketchy info. Find the cause, not the symptom.

Hey Dave:


Were the folks at TAD able to recommend a good mechanical surveyor in Toronto for you?


Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley

Miz Trom said:

Hey Dave:


Were the folks at TAD able to recommend a good mechanical surveyor in Toronto for you?


Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley

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Hi Miz, I wish I could say that I ended up going down that route, but I didn't. The owner went ahead and contacted his guy, and I decided to just go with that. I wish I could have been there to ask 1001 questions, but I couldn't. He gave her a look, but I doubt it was anything more than cursory. He didn't even charge for the visit.

While I wish it had been more thorough, so far I haven't encountered any symptoms that point to any problems at all, so I don't think I'm going to press the issue any further. I tend to be suspicious about these things, but I'm coming to the conclusion that she really is in good shape.

I think I'd like to hire a really knowledgeable engineer type to spend a day with me in my engine room and just teach me everything I can absorb. That will come later though. Next week, I hope to be heading out to Toronto to pick her up.

I'm really starting to get excited.

Wayfarer said:

During the survey and sea trial, we did run the engine through it's paces. We took her through the RPM range and compared oil pressure, temperature, and boat speeds with no major issues found. There is a discrepancy between actual RPMs and what is displayed on the tach since the owner changed out the alternator, but we didn't have the equipment to determine how much of a difference it was. Idle was also a bit low and needs to be adjusted a bit. We ran her at WOT for a good 10 minutes without any issues. The surveyor said there was some vibration, but it wasn't anything that raised any red flags with me. We checked for play in the cutlass bearing, and found none. There was very little smoke at any point during the run, even at startup.

We also took oil samples from the Perkins and the Genset, and both came back from Toromont Cat with no issues.

All of this in mind, I've been wondering if I actually NEED a mechanical survey. I'm still coming down in favor of yes, if for no other reason than my own peace of mind. I think what we did in the first survey will be enough to satisfy the bank and the insurance folks.

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Dave
Looking at the YW listing "Specifications" and your above sea trials, you have verified what you expected to find, so good news, no surprises. Without pulling the injectors and doing a pop test and a compression test, there isn't much more that can be learned, even from a mech survey. Some good mechanics can tell you stuff that you and I would never think about, just from listening to the engine running at low and high rpm. But no surveyor can give you an absolute "This engine is in great/poor condition" that you can take to the bank. At some point you will need to say to yourself "good enough for me". If that takes a survey, get one.

caltexflanc said:

Try giving these guys a call

TAD for perkins engines, perkins diesel, perkins marine, perkins parts, perkins generators, perkins service

Perkins experts. Well regarded. I think Steve D'Antonio spoke highly of them in a recent article.

Click to expand...

Wayfarer said:

That’s a good idea. I think I’ll do that. Thank you!

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Getting beyond a survey idea, assuming that's maybe been OBE...

Maybe have a Perkins expert (TAD person?) come do your first service, and arrange to make that a teaching/learning exercise at the same time. Engine and gear oil and filter, fuel and filters, coolant and filter, belts, air cleaner (AirSep?), discussion about heat exchanger/aftercooler(?)/turbo(?)/etc service assuming those not immediately needing anything obvious, according to your now-on-site expert... who can generally look over everything, hear everything, see everything at the same time...

That's cost more, but... might set you off on a good footing with your new-found friend (engine).

-Chris

koliver said:

Dave
Looking at the YW listing "Specifications" and your above sea trials, you have verified what you expected to find, so good news, no surprises. Without pulling the injectors and doing a pop test and a compression test, there isn't much more that can be learned, even from a mech survey. Some good mechanics can tell you stuff that you and I would never think about, just from listening to the engine running at low and high rpm. But no surveyor can give you an absolute "This engine is in great/poor condition" that you can take to the bank. At some point you will need to say to yourself "good enough for me". If that takes a survey, get one.

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Yeah, I think I'm at the 'good enough for me' point right now.

ranger42c said:

Getting beyond a survey idea, assuming that's maybe been OBE...

Maybe have a Perkins expert (TAD person?) come do your first service, and arrange to make that a teaching/learning exercise at the same time. Engine and gear oil and filter, fuel and filters, coolant and filter, belts, air cleaner (AirSep?), discussion about heat exchanger/aftercooler(?)/turbo(?)/etc service assuming those not immediately needing anything obvious, according to your now-on-site expert... who can generally look over everything, hear everything, see everything at the same time...

That's cost more, but... might set you off on a good footing with your new-found friend (engine).

-Chris

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I like this idea. This may well be my plan of attack. I sure hope we'll be friends! lol. Thanks Chris.

Mechanical Survey

Having been through many, many surveys (vessel and mechanical), I can tell you that you and your surveyor did most if not all that a mechanical survey would entail. Most mechanics and service centers have moved away from surveys due to liability questions so it's really hard to find anyone, especially for an older engine.

Attaining full rpm and watching oil pressure and temps thru the full operating range are the most important combined with acceptable oil sample results. You can buy a reasonably priced photo tach to be sure about max rpm and a remote thermometer with laser pointer to keep an eye on temps. Most of a mechanical diesel survey consists of the mechanic sniffing, feeling, listening, and watching the engine run while checking temps...they rarely turn a wrench...so I think you're fine.

I had a mechanic do a diesel survey on mine when I bought it a couple years ago. He had a punch list of items like cleaning injectors, setting lifters, replacing hoses, leaking gaskets, etc. that were useful in the final price negotiations but since your past that don't sweat it.
I hadn't done diesels but hot rodded cars as a kid. I have found the diesels are much simpler but the parts are heavy and expensive! Check out Boat Diesel and utubes and you'll figure it out fast.
BTW, you didn't say if the oil tests were with some time on the oil or not. If not re-run them as I believe they are a great indication of problems starting but useless on fresh changed oil.
Also on the Perkins, watch for any rusting on the high pressure steel lines. I had a pinhole that atomized a little fuel on the far side behind the oil filter. Took a long time to find it to finally improve the diesel smell.

Snug Harbor said:

Having been through many, many surveys (vessel and mechanical), I can tell you that you and your surveyor did most if not all that a mechanical survey would entail. Most mechanics and service centers have moved away from surveys due to liability questions so it's really hard to find anyone, especially for an older engine.

Attaining full rpm and watching oil pressure and temps thru the full operating range are the most important combined with acceptable oil sample results. You can buy a reasonably priced photo tach to be sure about max rpm and a remote thermometer with laser pointer to keep an eye on temps. Most of a mechanical diesel survey consists of the mechanic sniffing, feeling, listening, and watching the engine run while checking temps...they rarely turn a wrench...so I think you're fine.

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Yeah, I think you're right. It would have been nice to have a diesel whisperer there who could use the force to tell me what my engine was thinking about, but I think we did enough to settle my furrowed brow.

hpogue123 said:

I had a mechanic do a diesel survey on mine when I bought it a couple years ago. He had a punch list of items like cleaning injectors, setting lifters, replacing hoses, leaking gaskets, etc. that were useful in the final price negotiations but since your past that don't sweat it.
I hadn't done diesels but hot rodded cars as a kid. I have found the diesels are much simpler but the parts are heavy and expensive! Check out Boat Diesel and utubes and you'll figure it out fast.
BTW, you didn't say if the oil tests were with some time on the oil or not. If not re-run them as I believe they are a great indication of problems starting but useless on fresh changed oil.
Also on the Perkins, watch for any rusting on the high pressure steel lines. I had a pinhole that atomized a little fuel on the far side behind the oil filter. Took a long time to find it to finally improve the diesel smell.

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That's good to know about the high pressure lines. I didn't smell... well anything really, so I'll keep a nostril out for that sort of thing.

The oil we sent off didn't have many hours on it. Less than 10 I think. The oil in the generator was less than 3. They just haven't been used much this season. The surveyor warned me that that would skew the results and make things look cleaner than they might be. I'll do another analysis when I put some more hours on her, and see how it lines up. I plan on sending samples in fairly regularly.

I bought a boat in Canada 3 years ago and had Craig Morley from Aquafacts do the engine survey. You might try him. He charges for travel time and is about 1.5 hrs from Toronto. He does a lot of sailboats and motorboats.

I know his name popped up during the search for a surveyor, I'm pretty sure I talked to him, but I can't for the life of me remember why we didn't connect. I spoke with a bunch of people who didn't have room in their schedule, and a few who didn't have the tools or skills to do a survey on an aluminum boat. In any event, I'm happy to proceed with the purchase without any further consultation.

Thanks for the tip though!