Deere and "Right to Repair"

Thanks for the input. Though I am not directly involved anymore my suggestion would be to go with a different brand engine. I did talk to the mechanic and he is looking into the issue further. Here is the vessel. It operates just like a pilot boat but is transferring NPS rangers on and off cruise ships. Up to 8 people on a ship and cargo. Most days there are 2 ships from May-September. This vessel will replace an aging 32' planing monohull. We wanted a fuel efficient low wake quiet boat with moderate speed.

djmarchand said:

Ain't that the truth. For my 2017 BMW/Mini you can check the oil level with the electronic display, but not manually. There is no dipstick. And you can't add oil yourself. Only the dealer can.

Big brother rules!!!

David

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I’ve not added, nor had to, any oil on the last five vehicles we’ve purchased. At oil change time only. That said, all had dipsticks and a fill point.

Common rail marine engines were hyped as the answer to a boater's prayer. Turns out they are the answer to anyone servicing them.

With a "government" boat it wont work, but someone looking for a new build should call various builders as many were wise enough to lay down a large number of keels to circumvent the Tier what ever rules , for awhile.

ak-guy said:

Here is the vessel...

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Nice - Scott Jutson design? That looks like a near cousin to my build. I went with Deere because I've grown up with them, now you guys are making me question my decision.

The reason is that the manufacturers want to stop you, or 3rd parties, doing the work yourself and the reason they force you to go to their authorised dealer is purely and simply profit.
They sell you the engine but also lock you into the dealer servicing for as long as you keep it =$$$$$$.
You can if you wish still buy the Ford 4 & 6 cylinder models which are built in Turkey without electronics as well as some other marques. A friend has a Turkish built Ford and he loves it, he says it 'runs like a mouse chawing tissue paper'.
If you talk to Mike Bellamy at Bellamy marine he'll give you the full details of what's available.
BTW I've never heard of a private boat owner ever wearing out his engine and frankly when I'm at sea in my single engine boat I want reliability first and foremost which is why I'd never buy a motor with ECU's as long as my fundamental orifice is still pointing at the ground.

Irish Rambler said:

The reason is that the manufacturers want to stop you, or 3rd parties, doing the work yourself and the reason they force you to go to their authorised dealer is purely and simply profit.

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If not to make a profit, why do you think manufacturers are in business? If you don't like one manufacturer's product or business model, buy from somebody else.

Irish Rambler said:

You can if you wish still buy the Ford 4 & 6 cylinder models which are built in Turkey without electronics as well as some other marques. A friend has a Turkish built Ford and he loves it, he says it 'runs like a mouse chawing tissue paper'.

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Federal law in the USA required boats which would be sold in this country, built after 2008, having an engine over 37 KW (50 HP), to have tier compliant engines. It's a government regulation, not a manufacturer's decision.

Ted

Bkay said:

Nice - Scott Jutson design? That looks like a near cousin to my build. I went with Deere because I've grown up with them, now you guys are making me question my decision.

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Yes a Jutson design. It will be built by Armstrong in Port Angeles, WA.

Not to derail the thread - but Josh Armstrong is building this one at his new location in North Carolina.

It has the dreaded John Deere 4045 AFM85.

"Federal law in the USA required boats which would be sold in this country, built after 2008, having an engine over 37 KW (50 HP), to have tier compliant engines. It's a government regulation, not a manufacturer's decision."

When these types of laws were created for the trucking industry , the smaller carriers (a couple of trucks) could not compete.

Their solution was to purchase "gliders" , brand new trucks with out an engine or transmission.

The truck owner would install a factory rebuilt older repairable style engine.

Sadly it seems only lobster boats still are built with the ability to change out the engine package overnight.

Perhaps it will push NA to creating more repairable boats?

FF said:

"Federal law in the USA required boats which would be sold in this country, built after 2008, having an engine over 37 KW (50 HP), to have tier compliant engines. It's a government regulation, not a manufacturer's decision."

When these types of laws were created for the trucking industry , the smaller carriers (a couple of trucks) could not compete.

Their solution was to purchase "gliders" , brand new trucks with out an engine or transmission.

The truck owner would install a factory rebuilt older repairable style engine.

Sadly it seems only lobster boats still are built with the ability to change out the engine package overnight.

Perhaps it will push NA to creating more repairable boats?

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And then glider kits were discontinued due to government pressure.

Since most boats are not made in the US, what's to prevent a US citizen from having one built with a solid non-electronic engine (or two) installed overseas. Get a flag of convenience and boat where ever you want to go. I understand when the time comes to sell the boat, you're more limited due to the non-tier x engines.

stubones99 said:

Since most boats are not made in the US, what's to prevent a US citizen from having one built with a solid non-electronic engine (or two) installed overseas. Get a flag of convenience and boat where ever you want to go. I understand when the time comes to sell the boat, you're more limited due to the non-tier x engines.

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Definitely can do that, but keep in mind that many of the convenient flag states are UK affiliates, and may similarly require IMO emmissions standards which are much the same as US EPA.

Simi 60 said:

855 in the Komatsu list here as well as many others
https://dkengineparts.com/Komatsu

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https://www.energiepower.net/cummins-in-china.html
"In 1981, Cummins and China Heavy Duty Truck Group signed a license agreement to become one of the first foreign-funded enterprises in China to localize production . Since then , Cummins has been working to establish strategic partnerships with many companies including Dongfeng Motor in China. Cummins has invested more than two hundred forty million US dollars in China , as China’s largest foreign investor of diesel engine , Cummins has 14 joint ventures and wholly-owned manufacturing enterprises, producing engines, turbochargers , filters, exhaust systems in China , fuel system, alternator and generator sets and other products."

The Chinese parts house is using Chinese parts licensed by Cummins. Can buy the engines on Alibaba: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Genuine-In-line-6-cylinder-diesel_62033578193.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.302.23c5df93xgKbsg

You may or may not want to. Chongqing Ogem Trade Co.,Ltd.

I don't mind the companies who build engines making a profit, if they didn't we'd have no engines to play with. What I object to is getting locked in to dealer service contracts. Many engineering shops are losing their business and as a result laying highly skilled men off and closing down.
In the truck business this was driven by accountants who were too darn lazy to do their job and pushed for lease agreements including servicing for a simple bottom line calculation, of course most managers followed their thinking.
We have proved beyond doubt that buying straight with no trade ins and servicing our own definitely is more cost effective, at the end of life we paint them out of our colours and export to Africa or Middle East where our trucks go on for a second life. With profits being tight in the trucking industry with East European competition we have to watch every cent.
We get our diesels tuned in either Holland or Spain and it can be done in a couple of hours. I'm certain sure your lads will have the same possibilities.
If I were having a new boat built I would go for remanufactured straight mechanical diesels, electronics definitely work but around a damp atmosphere 30/50 miles off shore indefinitely, frankly I wouldn't touch them with a 100 foot barge pole.
I stress these are my own personal views based on my own experience and of course don't reflect other peoples opinions.

If I were having a new boat built I would go for remanufactured straight mechanical diesels, electronics definitely work but around a damp atmosphere 30/50 miles off shore indefinitely, frankly I wouldn't touch them with a 100 foot barge pole.
I stress these are my own personal views based on my own experience and of course don't reflect other peoples opinions.


? +1

Many engine builders are advertising "non-electronic" marine engines that can be fixed by any good grease monkey. People are getting tired of a bad processor board costing thousands to replace because a factory tech had to be flown in.

ProMaritime said:

Many engine builders are advertising "non-electronic" marine engines that can be fixed by any good grease monkey. People are getting tired of a bad processor board costing thousands to replace because a factory tech had to be flown in.

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Which engines that meet IMO and/or EPA requirements? Or is the assumption that the flag state is not party to either set of regs?


And BTW, I'm pretty sure that the whole build a new boat with a remanufactured older engine won't fly in EPA or IMO flag states.

"And BTW, I'm pretty sure that the whole build a new boat with a remanufactured older engine won't fly in EPA or IMO flag states."


Probably right , but an easy to yank engine setup would allow you to return the electric nightmare to the boat builder still new, after the next yard down the shore sticks in a useful marine diesel.


A lobster boat can change out the drive package overnight , a smart NA should be able to design a bigger boat to do the same as quickly.

A friend (professional wooden boatbuilder) built a new boat not too long ago with a rebuilt Gardner engine. I asked how that was possible and he explained if the owner provided the equipment he was allowed to install it. But if he purchased and installed an engine as part of the contract it had to meet current standards.

I asked (out of curiosity) if the commercial operation building my boat could install engines I purchased that were not electronic and they said they couldn't do that - anything coming out of their production facility had to meet current standards regardless of who paid for the engine. So I suspect there is a degree of interpretation and risk involved when it comes to older engines in new builds.

Homebuilders can get away with dropping in any engine they want. I am choosing Beta a Kubota based engine. They meet the regs and use no electronics except the shut off solenoid. If it fails, the engine will run on if it's running. If not, it's as simple as sliding the shut-off lever on the injection pump to the side. The only downside to going Beta is they only do 100hp or less. Glad I'm only going to need 50hp.

Helping this thread drift further off course….

Based on personal experience I don’t trust electronically controlled engines in boats. Moisture, vibration, electrical problems external to the engine and distance from support all add up to potentially being stranded at sea. In my case it was John Deere 4045s, nearly new low hours. The error displayed was water in the fuel, the real problem turned out to be low voltage to the ECU!?!?

With the advent of electronically controlled engines diesels have lost one of their key advantages over gasoline engines. Old skool mechanical diesels once you get them started, keep clean fuel coming and cooling working they will most likely get you home.

I’m not yet aware of any emissions testing on boats like many states have for cars. I suspect that if you wanted to risk not being in regulatory compliance you could pull your tier 2 or 3 engines and replace with older style engines and never have an issue

Why do these discussions often throw out opinions that are so "one point of operation"? or differently.... worst case scenario or extreme or only what works for them...etc...etc...?


My mostly ICW, fair weather trawler has an engine room that has the equivalent environment to the non-air conditioned porch of a beach house.


Sure there is salt air influence...but the last 3 trucks I have owned with electronic ignition systems and the one electronic diesel had engines regularly bathed in road salts and moisture. They lived in more of the salt air environment than my boat engine just 200 feet away down the dock.


Yes...I have been on commercial service and rescue boats that take salt water beatings with waterfals of salt water into their engine rooms and bilges...a much harder life...but one NONE of my recreational boats have ever or will ever see. Nor most here.


I have seen properly built outboards with electronic ignitions submerged several times survive long lives.


Just how many ocean crossers do we really have here?


So much for worrying about electronics on boat engines. The make, model and preventative maintenance I would thin a bigger deal. True an older simpler engine has less failure points...but electronic ones aren't time bombs either.


Here are some thoughts from a guy who travels the world regularly working on ocean crossers, mega yachts, commercial vessels, etc....

"The comments in this thread are incredible. People who freak out when some (edited) minor detail is not ABYC compliant are suggesting that international and national laws should not apply to them when it comes to the engines they really don't know much about anyway.



(edited) ....and must not be aware that a very large and rapidly growing number of the world's merchant ships and most smaller commercial vessels use electronically controlled engines at sea and inland with fewer problems than the old mechanical units.



I can't remember the last time I was on a yacht that did not have electronically controlled main and auxiliary engines. Those boats travel around the world, literally around the world crossing the Atlantic and Pacific and around the Med every year without issue.



The whole basis of (edited ) this thread where it has drifted from the OP is another ignorant "sky is falling" bit of TF fear mongering that does nothing for the boating industry other than frighten a few who know less than (edited) those posting nonsense.

Some boats have nice engine rooms, some have engine bays. Mine will have an engine box under the aft deck similar to a sailboat with the front accessible through the companionway steps. Most marine diesel manufacturers (and gassers) mount their electronic control modules (computer) right there on top or side of the engine. I expect I will on occasion have some water seep in. Maybe I need to check the engine during a storm or something. Most automotive electronics are inside the dash or foot wells. My truck EEC is sealed into a box high on the firewall and my hood is sealed to the firewall and cowl to protect it from water. I have replaced or repaired many automotive electronic control modules due to water ingress killing them, in my auto tech days. It does happen and usually at very bad times. I wouldn't want to take my chances especially in close quarters along the coast. To much to crash into when the power plant dies. Hopefully, it's in a safe enough area to get the anchor down and call for assistance.

i think I'm beginning to understand that a "forum" is about chit-chat either on or off topic (mostly off topic). I am a little amused that in all the responses to the original post about Deere no one has suggested to the the OP simply to contact Deere directly and get from the source the answer to the question about factory support.

Dawdler said:

i think I'm beginning to understand that a "forum" is about chit-chat either on or off topic (mostly off topic). I am a little amused that in all the responses to the original post about Deere no one has suggested to the the OP simply to contact Deere directly and get from the source the answer to the question about factory support.

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Good Grief! You Spoilsport!
Wash your mouth out with soap and water. Immediately.

I think this is much a do about nothing. If electronic engines (gas or diesel) were so unreliable, the roads would be littered with abandoned, broken down vehicles. And the shores would be lined with stalled boats. It's just not the case. In reality, they are extremely reliable.


I participate in the Nordhavn owners group and hear about most problems people are running into, and these are boats that mostly get used, a lot. Engine electronics problems just don't exist. When there are issues, it's invariably a connection spliced during installation that went bad. There are more issues with wiring for gauges on mechanical engines, and mechanical shift linkages coming apart, than engine electronic issues, by far.


Not only would I use an electronically controlled engine without hesitation, I greatly prefer them. They are quiet, start immediately, don't smoke, don't stink, don't slobber and plug up, and don't fail.

Two differences between cars and other vehicles and boats .

Vehicles are natural Farriday cages , so are resistant to lightning & side strikes.

Florida gets thousands every day.

Second ,when dockside lightning to the marina , via your power cord can overwhelm a system , thru the battery charger to the electronics.
Lost a DD series 50 box this way.

My concern is why add a layer of unsolvable problems to a hobby that is for enjoyment?

If a diesel starts and has clean fuel it is reliable .