Deere and "Right to Repair"

From everything I have heard and read Deere makes a great marine engine. On the other hand Deere is often talked about in any discussion of right to repair issues. The talk is mostly about farmers not being able to repair their tractors themselves because diagnostic and repair software is not available to them. I just retired but the last few years I spent a lot of time speccing a new vessel for Glacier Bay National Park. The contract for the boat has just been awarded and Deere engines have been chosen. At this point I don't think they are locked into one particular engine brand though, it probably could be changed. The park does all their vessel maintenance in house. They have a very good marine mechanic. The park is isolated though and a Deere technician if needed would have to be flown in. Probably all new engines are computer controlled these days and require software to diagnose some issues but some makers might be more willing to let owners use the software.

You're correct. The new engines are common rail with most manufactures except a few that only make small, under 120hp, engines. Cummins would be my first choice for larger diesel engines. Most marine techs can handle them with ease. Reliability is as good or better than Deere in my opinion. They are the go to engines for a lot of fishermen in the northeast US.

Cummins are really good and easy to work on. I have the common rail 5.9L 24valve in my truck, and have been able to do it all myself.

I imagine marine engines are getting to be like newer car engines. You need very special diagnostic equipment and software to find out what's wrong. This equipment is very expensive, usually tens of thousands of dollars. It is available to shops that are not part of a dealer network, but most of them can't afford it. I can see a future when all the older mechanically based engines, as opposed to electronically controlled, will be worn out and gone and dealers will be the only ones around who can work on them.

I have the same 5.9L Cummins on Kinship. I did run into a problem with one reputable diesel shop having some issues with their Cummins diagnostic software. It took them a bit to get it resolved. The Cummins shop tech always seemed to have a backup laptop available with the software loaded.

I think Cummins would be happy to sell the Park a software license for the diagnostic software but not sure about the expense. I imagine Deere would be the same.

porman said:

I imagine marine engines are getting to be like newer car engines. You need very special diagnostic equipment and software to find out what's wrong. This equipment is very expensive, usually tens of thousands of dollars. It is available to shops that are not part of a dealer network, but most of them can't afford it. I can see a future when all the older mechanically based engines, as opposed to electronically controlled, will be worn out and gone and dealers will be the only ones around who can work on them.

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Ain't that the truth. For my 2017 BMW/Mini you can check the oil level with the electronic display, but not manually. There is no dipstick. And you can't add oil yourself. Only the dealer can.

Big brother rules!!!

David

djmarchand said:

Ain't that the truth. For my 2017 BMW/Mini you can check the oil level with the electronic display, but not manually. There is no dipstick. And you can't add oil yourself. Only the dealer can.

Big brother rules!!!

David

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I don’t think it is that completely. I would guess that a lot of it is that a small percentage of complete idiots ruined it for everyone by not reading the manual, using epically wrong oil spec or doing things like filling the crankcase with coolant. We have all seen the YouTube videos done by mechanics. These foolish maneuvers cost the brand in both money and perceived brand value. It doesn’t surprise me at all that manufacturers are taking some of the user maintenance away to keep a strong brand. Moreover, there are becoming fewer and fewer people (perhaps generational) that even want to do things like oil changes in their cars. When they balance time v. money, it can often just make more sense to let the dealer do it. They just don’t have, or were never exposed to, the satisfaction and joy of these jobs.

I really dislike the dealers that do not provide overhaul and diagnostic manuals and equipment to owner, and avoid them. Volvo is another one.



There's no reason a competent mechanic can't learn most everything about maintaining their engine, including major stuff. The owner can decide if it's cost effective for him to do it, or have someone do it under his supervision.



I like to have that option for all my mechanical stuff, planes, cars, boats, and any machinery.


Some things I can do better than a shop or dealer and some I can't. With some, I'll hire a mechanic to work under my supervision and often that's way more cost effective that a dealer that has high markups and overhead. So, it depends, but I could argue to have the option.


I really like the Yanmar and Cummins for a first choice.

There is 3rd party diagnostic software for some engine brands. Usually engines also used on the road. I use one for my diesel pu that cost about $300. Less than the cost of one trip to the dealer.
But for marine, I stay with 100% mechanical engines. On the ocean, especially in remote locations, you need reliability. None of the electronic engines have that kind of reliability. They may work well for years until the components and wiring age. Then they're an expensive nightmare if they don't get you killed.

I have never felt a need to hack into my engine software, but for those that do, you might find this interesting.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...acking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware

My Deere 4045 is electronically controlled and you can read most of the fault codes on the engine display. The 2 problems I've had (ECU plug issue) ( throttle position potentiometer) were diagnosed though the display, 2,000 miles from my dealer. Happily both were resolved with guidance from the dealer, over the phone, no charge. You may not be able to diagnose everything through the display and fix it over the phone, but there is certainly a lot of issues you would be able to diagnose.

Ted

Thank goodness the 2010, 80 h.p. John Deere 4045 (naturally aspirated, non-electronic) serves me well. My engine mechanic loves it too.

Do JD or Cummins for that matter make an engine?

As an example, our 855 Cummins is actually a Komatsu but also badged as a JD 8960
There are plenty of examples of this rebadging out there.

I really doubt the 855 Cummins is a re-badged Komatsu. Cummins and Deere really do make their engines. The B3.3 is an exception, think that is Komatsu or some other Japanese mfr. Some bigger Deeres might be sourced elsewhere, but the 4045, 6068, 6081, 6091 (??) pretty sure are Deere.

The 855 has been made since like the 60's or 70's. By Cummins. Smaller cube versions of the same basic design even earlier than that.

sdowney717 said:

Cummins are really good and easy to work on.

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+1. I have twin 210's which I consider the most bulletproof system on the boat. Many round trips to Alaska on these engines.

Ski in NC said:

I really doubt the 855 Cummins is a re-badged Komatsu. Cummins and Deere really do make their engines. The B3.3 is an exception, think that is Komatsu or some other Japanese mfr.

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855 in the Komatsu list here as well as many others
https://dkengineparts.com/Komatsu

At a boat show, I looked at one of those common rail diesel engines. There was so much stuff hanging on the block you could pour a bucket of water on the engine and not a drop would reach the bilge. No thanks. I'll stick with an engine I can work on myself and leave those common rail gold mines to the checkwriters.

Manufacturers for both auto and heavy trucks are now starting to lock the independents out of their software. What they have developed is a device that plugs into the communication port and your internet connection. A trained factory technician using factory software then does the diagnostics or reflashing. This is not happening overnight but we are seeing more of this. Chrysler locked out the 2019 models. The third party vendors came up with a hack, it’s now in the courts. Expect to see more and more of this. On the other hand, with a good sat/internet connection the factory can come to you anywhere in the world.

Simi 60 said:

855 in the Komatsu list here as well as many others
https://dkengineparts.com/Komatsu

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It might be that Cummins licensed Komatsu to make some engines. I'm a bit out of the loop there so not certain. But I am sure the 855 originated with Cummins.

Cummins is happy to license their software (and sell the required interface module). The price isn't even that bad, considering the Cummins label.

Ski in NC said:

It might be that Cummins licensed Komatsu to make some engines. I'm a bit out of the loop there so not certain. But I am sure the 855 originated with Cummins.

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In the late ‘70’s Komatsu sold bulldozers in North America with a licensed 855 Cummins engine. The engine said Komatsu on castings and nameplates, but one of their selling points was that you could get parts and service at any Cummins dealer.

My thought is that I have no problem needing a laptop and software to disgnose, and otherwise repair an engine in a boat, as long as I, the owner can buy the software.

I would NEVER dream of having a boat motor that I cannot own the software for.
Not a chance.

Folks looking at new boats that are stuck with electronic engines might consider truck marinizations as there should be far more code readers ,and perhaps hackers.

If I recall correctly, Deere imposed their policy of locking out owners on software after farmers discovered that they could convert a much cheaper model to a much more powerful, more expensive model simply by changing a couple of software settings and possibly a few cheap parts. The internet was full of posts and videos on it. It seemed like they were just caught flat footed and that was their solution. I thought there was a class action lawsuit.

It won't take long for some third party manufacturer to make a stand-alone ECM that has none of this nonsense. Plug and play, open source code. Just like bolting on third party injector pump, injectors and turbo on an old mechanical engine. Heck, it could all be on a phone!!

Apple and Microsoft were weighing in on this subject since they want to do the same thing. Apple almost has done it already, with some third party repairs bricking the phone.

It all boils down to whether you own the product or is it a license to use the product.

Ski in NC said:

It won't take long for some third party manufacturer to make a stand-alone ECM that has none of this nonsense. Plug and play, open source code. Just like bolting on third party injector pump, injectors and turbo on an old mechanical engine. Heck, it could all be on a phone!!

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Whilst that has existed for a long time for gasoline engines, controlling electronic diesels is no easy proposition.

There are a couple of aftermarket diesel ECMs available but they are still eye-wateringly expensive and are a long, long way from plug and play.
They're aimed at motorsport applications where significant modification, tuning and testing will be par for the course.

Diesels require much more processing power as the injection timing needs to be orders of magnitude more accurate than a spark-ignited engine. Rail pressure is used to alter the metering as much, or more, than the injector duty cycle on a CR diesel, which gasoline ECMs have no idea about.

Add the numerous strategies each manufacturer uses as far as crankshaft/camshaft position and speed sensing, whether the engine uses solenoid or piezo injectors and their associated and differing required driver circuitry, injector on/off/dead time calibrations and flow rate calibrations, fuel pressure sensing and control, boost pressure control, compensation for altitude and barometric conditions, turbo shaft speed control and turbo geometry control. . there's just so many factors that aren't standardised that make any sort of plug-and-play ECM non-realistic.

That's before you even look at the actual fueling, timing, boost and numerous other maps that make up the actual tune file that runs the engine. . that takes hours and hours on a dyno with pretty serious data acquisition and logging equipment to get it right.

Ski in NC said:

It might be that Cummins licensed Komatsu to make some engines. I'm a bit out of the loop there so not certain. But I am sure the 855 originated with Cummins.

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There is significant cross-brand sharing between Cummins and Komatsu.
It ranges from a basic re-badging of one engine for the other, to licensed manufacture or parts or whole engines by the other company.

It also extends to technology sharing; with both company's fuel systems used on the other's engines in some applications.

Some B & C series Cummins-manufactured engines are badged as Komatsu in construction excavators and loaders, the B3.3 is a Komatsu engine badged as a Cummins. . the QSK23 is a Komatsu engine etc etc.

I run the component rebuild section at a Komatsu branch in Australia, and it's probably close to a 50/50 split the number of engines I build that are actually Cummins/Komatsu; with a few hybrids of both thrown in.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like you really are in the loop!!

The Asia/Oz market must be a little different. Here in the states I have not seen a Komatsu built Cummins design. All US or British builds. Have seen the B3.3, so there is that.

Agreed that programming a diesel ecm is complex, but so are many other things we have computers doing now. Reverse engineering is a powerful tool in that process.

Might happen, might not. Just thinking aloud.

Ski in NC said:

Thanks for the info. Sounds like you really are in the loop!!

The Asia/Oz market must be a little different. Here in the states I have not seen a Komatsu built Cummins design. All US or British builds. Have seen the B3.3, so there is that.

Agreed that programming a diesel ecm is complex, but so are many other things we have computers doing now. Reverse engineering is a powerful tool in that process.

Might happen, might not. Just thinking aloud.

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Right now, Ukraine and several other former soviet block countries have been successful in reverse engineering JD's apps and protocols and have tools on the black market.

JD requires new owners to sign an agreement that they won't use third-party tools on their JD equipment, which means you agree to have a dealer work on your JD equipment, and accept any downtime and losses due to having to wait for a time window for the dealer to get to the downed hardware. the same agreement says you give up the right to sue for crop losses due to down-time. Out in the midwest, you can be 200 miles from the dealer, and the travel time alone can lead to significant downtime.

It is a lot like Apple's EULA meaning that you may pay for the hardware but we have access to it, and can add/remote apps and features without asking permission.

I understand that it could be reverse engineered, but that would take lots of resources to do, and that would only reverse engineer one model, and JD can easily change models, methods, and protocols every year to require them to reverse engineer every revision, which would probably be cost-prohibitive.