wood types for teak jointing and samson post

this is the goal in 5 or so years if I get halfway there I'll be happy
https://youtu.be/A9whE1omTg8

No no no on the red oak! Red oak’s grain sucks up water from the end grain like a straw. White oak however builds dams in the grain. Think of bamboo. White oak will still require the end grain sealed as well as well as all their surfaces.
White oak or black locust would be your best choice. Do not use “green” wood. Air dried is your best choice.
Below is a pic of a Samson post I was called in to replace. The rebuild of this boat was done very well with the exception of sealing any of the structural components


As such the rebuild failed miserably



My recommendation would be to seal all areas not to be varnished with penetrating epoxy

When cruising Europe I used Iroko in place of teak. It was cheap there. In the US, most likely IPE would be the best substitute. You have the SS cap to protect the end of the grain. But still I would saturate the wood with Epoxy, and then put an UV inhibitor over the epoxy.

Not exactly sure here, but why not use just any old wood which will allow you to replace a non-structural window frame and soak it in CPES? I always did this with my wooden trawler and painted over the fix. Never had to go back to re-repair any site so treated.

White Oak is good also.

Dcbeach said:

As such the rebuild failed miserably
y

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that's what i'm afraid of i'll get it like i want it and it will later fail . i called the local hardwood supply . he has fir and western cedar in 6x6 ? i emailed a place at the coast but i'm not sure they sell to the public. going to prime the backside of the window this evening . and varnish the back of the screen frame if i have time. i wanted it ready to go back on Friday but i don't think i'll have it all ready. .

would western cedar or fir work ? they seem like they would be soft .

timb said:

would western cedar or fir work ? they seem like they would be soft .

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Too be clear, are you asking about the samson post with this question? As I mentioned before, I've seen fir used on a number of workboats for samson post and towing bits. If they are not painted, then fir needs to be sealed with epoxy or a good boat soup. But it can certainly be made strong enough.

No experience with the red cedar so I don't want to comment on that.

You never mentioned (that I saw) the dimensions of the samson post and boat's displacement. If I were doing a very heavy boat with no room to upsize the samson post, I'd prefer making my own out of a couple pieces of white oak. But fir does have a good strength to weight ratio.

I the fir is for the Samson post . it's 4.25x 4.25 now .the boat spec is 20000. I thought of upsizing it and cleaning up the deck opening for a tighter fit. it would be the cheapest option at less than 150$ for a 6x6 8 feet long. then trying to rip and plane it down.


thanks

timb said:

I the fir is for the Samson post . it's 4.25x 4.25 now .the boat spec is 20000. I thought of upsizing it and cleaning up the deck opening for a tighter fit. it would be the cheapest option at less than 150$ for a 6x6 8 feet long. then trying to rip and plane it down.


thanks

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I upped all the wood samson post sizes on my boat too.
I actually have quite mix. One is an oak, another is an ash, the front one is a piece of PT 4x4 pine, but unlike any you could buy today. It was on my inlaws land and had been one end stuck in the ground from at least the mid 70's and was PERFECT, no blemishes, no knots, very dense and very tight grain and no rot. It also never got sun exposure, always shaded.

That front one is maybe 5.5 feet long, one end bolts to a floor in the bilge, with a galvanized lag bolt. It was thicker than the OEM and it has held some heavy anchor loads.

The old post were Douglass fir.
Here is a new one which is wider and actually fit the teak deck tightly. I replaced them when I rebuilt the aft decking.

timb said:

the fir is for the Samson post . it's 4.25x 4.25 now .the boat spec is 20000. I thought of upsizing it...

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Well, it's certainly not oversized now. Fir should work fine if you can't get a harder wood in the size you need. Oak is certainly much stronger and harder than fir, but fir has been used in the application quite frequently. If you have the ability to upsize, then I'd be more comfortable with substituting fir.

Around here (central VA) Douglas fir is used fairly frequently and I don't second guess these 3rd or 4th generation boat builders. Cypress is also used but it seems cypress tow posts and samson posts look a little larger - I don't know if that is some scientific approach to get the same strength or just because. Cypress is a little softer and has lower strength but the same weight as Douglas fir. But some folks obviously prefer it if they can increase the size.

sdowney717 said:

Here is a new one which is wider and actually fit the teak deck tightly.

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Nice!

that looks nice . i hope i can make mine look decent . i don't know how much i can up size i was planing to go up just enough to clean up the hole through the deck . i also have to replace the anchor locker floor and the lower portion of the forward bulkhead (small and hidden by the berth) . i'm not at the boat but i found this pic on my phone .the damage is below the deck and it very bad below the anchor locker floor. the cross brace is gone .

I don't know why I was picturing something smaller when you gave me the specs - but I'd not be overly concerned about using Douglas fir if there was no better choice (i.e. white oak or locust).

Not sure how you are securing it where is passes through the deck. On wooden boats we use cedar wedges driven in and cut flush with the deck to prevent movement under load. It's a pretty slick system.

Bkay said:

I don't know why I was picturing something smaller when you gave me the specs - but I'd not be overly concerned about using Douglas fir if there was no better choice (i.e. white oak or locust).

Not sure how you are securing it where is passes through the deck. On wooden boats we use cedar wedges driven in and cut flush with the deck to prevent movement under load. It's a pretty slick system.

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The way I secured mine, I used a piece of galvanized angle iron. Ran a SS lag into the post thru the iron.
Other side of angle iron has a SS lag into the framing.
The bottom of the post sits in a teak notched out pocket, with a PT 2x4 on the bottom holds up all the teak floor planking.

Here is a picture showing the old post and you can see the angle too.
Its very solid. The angle iron does nothing except keep post from pulling up.

sdowney717 said:

Here is a picture showing the old post and you can see the angle too. Its very solid.

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sdowney - what wood is yours made out of?

BTW - my wife is from Poquoson.

For the Samson post, Stainless Steel would look awesome and can be made much stronger than wood.
Find a SS fabricator and get it made to your exact specifications.

If choosing between Cedar and Fir, Fir is never used for strength in home construction, just for decks, wall coverings or decorative exposed beams. Fir is specified for its strength in supporting beams, etc. Using the same logic, use Fir for your Samson Post.

Bkay said:

sdowney - what wood is yours made out of?

BTW - my wife is from Poquoson.

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The rears, one is made of Ash, other is oak.
Forward one is a superb piece of tight grain old growth pine.

They are not too hard to replace on my boat. I can cut them out of larger wood on my table saw. The rear ones actually were skids, part of a pallet holding machinery or something heavy for transport, and were free.

Ash? I've never used ash on a boat - but it's certainly a strong wood for it's weight. Does it hold up to weather? If so, that might be a good choice for the OP if it's available.

I've used it in projects where strength was critical and it's a decent wood to work with.

Bkay said:

Ash? I've never used ash on a boat - but it's certainly a strong wood for it's weight. Does it hold up to weather? If so, that might be a good choice for the OP if it's available.

I've used it in projects where strength was critical and it's a decent wood to work with.

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As long as it is well sealed, ASH is a good very strong boat wood to use, and as long as you can replace the wood in the future without extreme trouble. It is not as rot resistant as a white oak. But its better than pine.

I would not use ash for buried structural components deep in the bilge, where it will get wet with the rain and not be dry. Much of how durable wood is on a wood boat is the wood type, but also how it is made and where it is in the boat. Just pieces of wood screwed together invites rot.

The Emerald Ash Borer is a severe threat to the very existence of ash trees. I have heard in a few decades, Ash trees may be extinct. That bug is not native here. Sad if the Ash tree is gone.

https://www.americanforests.org/magazine/article/will-we-kiss-our-ash-goodbye/

Bkay said:

Ash? I've never used ash on a boat - but it's certainly a strong wood for it's weight. Does it hold up to weather? If so, that might be a good choice for the OP if it's available.

I've used it in projects where strength was critical and it's a decent wood to work with.

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I walked through a catamaran that was paneled with ash and liked it. It was a very light and airy color and opened up the space. Of course, this was on the inside, not the exterior of the boat.