Who owns the survey?

When I bought my 1st boat way back in the 70s I thought the survey was private property belonging to the person who paid for it, that no one else had the right to see it. Anyone else wanting a survey of the boat had to pay for a fresh survey.

Fast forward to today and I see many listings saying "Recent survey available" or some such wording. So, during my most recent survey I asked the surveyor about that and he said, not in these exact words. I own the copy of the survey I paid for. He owns the intellectual (for lack of a better term) rights and I can't re-sell to the next buyer or to the broker if / when I pass on the purchase.

I'm wondering what the true story is....

Of course I understand that to go to a bank or insurance company for the boat I need a current survey that I commissioned.

Well, unless you have a written contract with the surveyor that says he retains rights to the "intellectual property" contained in the survey, then it is yours. I am no lawyer, but I faced this question quite often in the engineering field. When you pay for a professional to write a report, you own the "work product" not just the ink and paper it is written on.


Surveyors try to maintain this fiction even in the absence of a contract in order to get paid to do another one.


So for example, if a PO commissions a survey to help him sell the boat without such a contract clause and you buy the boat, you could use that survey if it is current to support your application for insurance. I may be wrong about this but the insurance company shouldn't care who paid for the survey.


But maybe they are in cahoots with the surveyors ;-).


David

Unless you specifically signed a contract stipulating that you can't sell it, I see nothing that prevents you from selling something you purchased. If nothing else, you could sell the paper it was printed on.

As a survey is but a snapshot in time of a deteriorating item, the survey's value has a half life likey measured in weeks. Don't believe me, ask your insurance company how recent the survey needs to be for them to insure your boat.

Ted

I paid for my survey, I own it. Of course, if the broker wants a copy, he can ask me. If the sale falls through and the next in line wants a copy, I will be happy to sell him a copy of the survey for 1/2 what I paid for it. It will save him time and money.

I guess that makes me a bit strange. SHRUG

When we bought Phoenix Hunter, the PO provided us with a survey done at the request of a buyer that went on to be a failed purchase. I presume that buyer provided it to the PO who passed it on to us in good faith. Perhaps he was concerned that the survey disclosed deficiencies that he felt needed to be revealed. We proceeded with our own survey that was similar to what the previous survey revealed.

I don’t know what the legal issues might be but it was nice for us to see this survey.

Jim

djmarchand said:

Well, unless you have a written contract with the surveyor that says he retains rights to the "intellectual property" contained in the survey, then it is yours. I am no lawyer, but I faced this question quite often in the engineering field. When you pay for a professional to write a report, you own the "work product" not just the ink and paper it is written on.

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Agreed. Unless there is a contract saying otherwise, which there might well be, it's a work for hire, and you own the work product.

djmarchand said:

Well, unless you have a written contract with the surveyor that says he retains rights to the "intellectual property" contained in the survey, then it is yours. I am no lawyer, but I faced this question quite often in the engineering field. When you pay for a professional to write a report, you own the "work product" not just the ink and paper it is written on.


Surveyors try to maintain this fiction even in the absence of a contract in order to get paid to do another one.


So for example, if a PO commissions a survey to help him sell the boat without such a contract clause and you buy the boat, you could use that survey if it is current to support your application for insurance. I may be wrong about this but the insurance company shouldn't care who paid for the survey.


But maybe they are in cahoots with the surveyors ;-).


David

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Insurance companies aren’t in bed with surveyors.

A major concern are surveys done on behalf of the seller, then presented to the buyer as proof of condition. More than once we have seen these types of surveys misrepresent the actual condition of the vessel.

Best to get your own survey as part of your purchase evolution.

When we were in the process of purchasing our previous boat, the broker provided a survey from the seller that had been done within the previous month. To say that the survey was a complete misrepresentation of the actual condition of the boat would be a big understatement. I would never trust a seller's survey again.

Conrad said:

To say that the survey was a complete misrepresentation of the actual condition of the boat would be a big understatement. I would never trust a seller's survey again.

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Kinda like listening to the used car salesman who assures you the car you're looking at (a 2010 Saleen Mustang) was only driven by an elderly couple on their way to get groceries and go to church.

GFC said:

Kinda like listening to the used car salesman who assures you the car you're looking at (a 2010 Saleen Mustang) was only driven by an elderly couple on their way to get groceries and go to church.

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What? That's not true?


If the lips are moving........

In the Real Estate world the appraisal report belongs to the person or entity in most cases that placed the order. (Which is usually the lender for financed transactions) Who paid for the service is not a factor. In fact the appraisal report will state on the top of the first page there is a line for the Lender/Client with a space for the name and address. If the lender's name is on that line the appraisal report is for the lender.

With that said the lender can and usually does transfer the appraisal report upon request. And by federal law the borrower is required to get a copy of the appraisal report.

And it does have a shelf life of 90 days. Markets change and a 6 month old appraisal is worth nothing.

When I sold my last sailboat, my broker would, if asked, help procure a surveyor for the interested buyer. She always selected reputable surveyors who would provide an honest appraisal.

We had one potential out of state buyer that was a real axxhole. He was rude and profane to my broker in every conversation. My broker maintained her cool and continued to bend over backwards for this potential buyer. The buyer backed out of one sea trial and survey (after the broker had arraigned for haul out, sea trial and survey all on the same day. The next time the buyer showed up, but was such an ass to the surveyor (a different one since the original wasn’t about to schedule another survey for this buyer) that the surveyor actually just walked off (the boat was in the slings at the time). My broker at this point was livid.

She told me that if the buyer wanted another surveyor, she would just get the local “broker’s surveyor” to do it. I had to ask what she meant by that term. She described it as a hack surveyor that will come up with whatever value the selling broker wants to make the sale. She never uses this one, but in this case, she would have made an exception.

You "own" the rights to the survey you purchased. Facts can't be copyrighted. The surveyors opinions unless written in iambic pentameter can't be copyrighted. A survey is not intellectual property. It is merely a survey. A statement of facts about a particular boat at a particular place in time.

Regarding seller provided surveys.

A survey is written by a human being that is attempting to serve a customer. The survey report, in theory sould be the same for each instance, but that is not the case.

Yes, the big deficincies will probably all be the same, but the surveyor, within professional conduct bounds can and will tailor the survey to the buyers wishes. This is especially true of the “value” part, since that number is pretty subjective.

Insurance surveys that get used as a buyers survey are probably the worst I would imagine.

If I commission a insurance survey I want the surveyor to find as little wrong with the boat as professionally possible.

If I commission the survey as a buyer I might want the surveyor to nit pick so that the results of the survey can be used as a negotiation tool.

Two very different surveys, written by the same professional surveyor, on the same boat, for two different, and very valid reasons.

There is a maritime lawyer on TF. I remember he chimed in a few months ago about something and mentioned his profession. Can't remember the thread. Lol. He'd be a good forum member to befriend! Save some boatbucks with free legal advice

Since a new buyers survey can cost several boat $, It is common to access any & all info before proceeding to sea trial & survey. Sometimes a deal falls through. That buyer owns the survey technically. But, the selling broker will have a copy of the deficiencies found at survey (forms the basis for renegotiations) and can certainly make it available to subsequent prospective buyers. When I sold my previous boat, 1st deal fell thru after sea trial/survey. Subsequent buyer bought the entire buyers survey from 1st buyer (since it was only a month old) at a significant discount. Reputable surveyor, everyone happy. Surveys conducted as pre sale devices or for insurance purposes by seller have no $ value and best used only in the decision to proceed with your own buyers suvey/sea trial

Most insurers and lenders will not accept a survey performed on behalf of anyone except the named insured.

Pau Hana said:

Most insurers and lenders will not accept a survey performed on behalf of anyone except the named insured.

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Interesting responses to my original post. I was approached to see if I'd sell my recent survey on a boat that failed survey miserably. Pau Hana nails it, there is no value to me in a survey conducted for someone else. If broker or seller make a recent survey available at no cost or perhaps a small fraction of full cost I'll take it for information in making my decision to make an offer or not.

Further to being no value to me because insurance and lender won't accept it I want to choose a surveyor I have full confidence in for my pre-purchase survey.

Portage_Bay said:

Interesting responses to my original post. I was approached to see if I'd sell my recent survey on a boat that failed survey miserably. Pau Hana nails it, there is no value to me in a survey conducted for someone else. If broker or seller make a recent survey available at no cost or perhaps a small fraction of full cost I'll take it for information in making my decision to make an offer or not.

Further to being no value to me because insurance and lender won't accept it I want to choose a surveyor I have full confidence in for my pre-purchase survey.

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All of this is true but not all buyers require surveys for their lenders or their insurance.
In those cases a previous survey may contain value for others.

A slight twist on the thread. I wrote a contract on a boat that was under contract to another buyer. That deal fell through based on price negotiations after a few minor survey deficiencies and unexpected fuel consumption at seatrial. I contacted the surveyor and was able to negotiate a reduced price on the survey because he had already done it and the associated research. Didn't work out quite as well for him as he had to resurveyed the boat with me, and I found a bunch of stuff he missed which required even more work on his part.

Ted

smitty477 said:

All of this is true but not all buyers require surveys for their lenders or their insurance.
In those cases a previous survey may contain value for others.

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With few exceptions, insurers require a Condition and Valuation survey for vessels over 10 years of age. The insurance company will be in the book for the agreed value of the vessel should there be a total loss, hence the requirement.

I am if the opinion that any vessel of value over $50k should be surveyed, regardless of age of the vessel. This is because we get all emotional and excited about the new boat, and can become blind to deficiencies- the surveyor will give an unattached unbiased opinion of the vessel.

Pau Hana said:

With few exceptions, insurers require a Condition and Valuation survey for vessels over 10 years of age. The insurance company will be in the book for the agreed value of the vessel should there be a total loss, hence the requirement.

I am if the opinion that any vessel of value over $50k should be surveyed, regardless of age of the vessel. This is because we get all emotional and excited about the new boat, and can become blind to deficiencies- the surveyor will give an unattached unbiased opinion of the vessel.

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I my last 2 boat sale which occurred within months of each other this is what happened:
- One boat purchaser wanted a survey done by one of a few local surveyors on his 'list'. I had just been through a survey by one of his preferred surveyors for a different buyer who could not secure the funding. We worked with that surveyor to get him a copy of the survey for his use for evaluation. of our boat. He ended up purchasing our boat. He did get another 'survey' for the insurance company that was mostly useless but was very cheap and quick.
- The second boat we had was much smaller but well above $50K. The survey that was done was not used as the potential buyer bought a boat about 1,200 miles away instead of ours. The person that actually bought our boat a couple of months later was happy to utilize that survey and did not need it for insurance or financing.
Both of these were about 3 years back and happened within a few months of each other.

smitty477 said:

I my last 2 boat sale which occurred within months of each other this is what happened:
- One boat purchaser wanted a survey done by one of a few local surveyors on his 'list'. I had just been through a survey by one of his preferred surveyors for a different buyer who could not secure the funding. We worked with that surveyor to get him a copy of the survey for his use for evaluation. of our boat. He ended up purchasing our boat. He did get another 'survey' for the insurance company that was mostly useless but was very cheap and quick.
- The second boat we had was much smaller but well above $50K. The survey that was done was not used as the potential buyer bought a boat about 1,200 miles away instead of ours. The person that actually bought our boat a couple of months later was happy to utilize that survey and did not need it for insurance or financing.
Both of these were about 3 years back and happened within a few months of each other.

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Not a fan of a purchaser getting a survey just for insurance coverage- one would hope that the buyer would see the value of getting a proper survey commissioned on their behalf vice obtaining one as cheaply as possible.

As a seller, I minimize my involvement with the buyer; I let the broker do the recommending. If no broker is involved, I'll recommend surveyors, lenders, etc., but not get involved otherwise. Getting overly involved makes one the subject matter expert.

I want to sell the boat, and nothing else.

Glad it worked out for you, but I cannot recommend the tack you took.

Pau Hana said:

Not a fan of a purchaser getting a survey just for insurance coverage- one would hope that the buyer would see the value of getting a proper survey commissioned on their behalf vice obtaining one as cheaply as possible.

As a seller, I minimize my involvement with the buyer; I let the broker do the recommending. If no broker is involved, I'll recommend surveyors, lenders, etc., but not get involved otherwise. Getting overly involved makes one the subject matter expert.

I want to sell the boat, and nothing else.

Glad it worked out for you, but I cannot recommend the tack you took.

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"Not a fan of a purchaser getting a survey just for insurance coverage- one would hope that the buyer would see the value of getting a proper survey commissioned on their behalf vice obtaining one as cheaply as possible."

They also had the previous survey performed on the boat the week before it was laid up on the hard for the winter storage that was very comprehensive with a sea trial. They were able to speak with the surveyor about his findings.The survey for the insurance was just that - a survey required for insurance.


"If no broker is involved, I'll recommend surveyors, lenders, etc., but not get involved otherwise. Getting overly involved makes one the subject matter expert."
Agreed ….that is exactly what happened in each case.

I see a couple of comments here that may need adjustment. If the contract for survey is silent, the surveyor owns the copyright to the survey. It is a work of art just like music If you as boat/engine owner you want to own it, then u need at least these words in the deal "the survey is a work for hire". Also helps to have language that boat/engine owner owns all rights in and to the survey.

If I desired to become a certified/ legal surveyor, what is the process?

captDJ said:

If I desired to become a certified/ legal surveyor, what is the process?

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Summoning the ghost of RickB... [emoji12]

Move closer to the water, go to surveyor school, take the exam, find a current surveyor to guide you for a while.

There are 2 surveyor entities ..... I forgot the names. I am sure someone in here can tell you.

Thanks, no current interest but may come a time, most of my life has been on the water except for the last 20, surveyor maybe an option in the future? Are there schools and certifications like my 20 ton with towing license is what I was curious about. Was not seeking advice on where to live, I choose to live inland to make money to spend time on my boat.

captDJ said:

Thanks, no current interest but may come a time, most of my life has been on the water except for the last 20, surveyor maybe an option in the future? Are there schools and certifications like my 20 ton with towing license is what I was curious about. Was not seeking advice on where to live, I choose to live inland to make money to spend time on my boat.

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Chapman, in Stuart FL, had a 'survey school'.
They even have rooms to rent with basic kitchen etc.
Stuart is a nice area. Would be nice if I could find a slip to buy but, owning 2 slips in Aventura FL is more than enough for a guy with one boat.
Capman also has professional classed for those seeking their captain's license. Not sure about classes designed specifically for towing but, for a price, I am sure they can give you classes designed for towing....