Total Control

psneeld said:

Usually just stopping and backing down/turning around is better than any fancy MOB maneuvering usually found in manuals or autopilots. Williamson turns are for large vessels that cant stop in a couple hundred feet like most of us can. If you loose sight of the MOB....bad things can happen. In a 2 mile turn, drift can carry the MOB off the trackline.

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Backing down??? Good way to chop up up the person you are trying to rescue. Alas, it happened in the Miami area on a 'go fast' outboard boat. Killed one, injured one, cut their leg off.

Remember, you cut your throttle, take is out of gear, the prop is still turning.

Toss a PDF, Cut the throttle, turn into the person in the water, moving the propeller away from the person. Preform a figure 8 retrieval putting the person on the windy side of the bow. Cut the throttle, out of gear and coast until the person is at the swim platform.

We simply do not put ourselves in a position where we can not control the vessel with single screw and rudder.
In the above situation we simply would have come in for fuel on a better day and another time.

I am not a luddite and do like appropriate tech but if its tech that makes control of the boat fail if it does or cant be repaired or worked around in remote locations it has no place on my boat.

OldDan1943 said:

Backing down??? Good way to chop up up the person you are trying to rescue. Alas, it happened in the Miami area on a 'go fast' outboard boat. Killed one, injured one, cut their leg off.

Remember, you cut your throttle, take is out of gear, the prop is still turning.

Toss a PDF, Cut the throttle, turn into the person in the water, moving the propeller away from the person. Preform a figure 8 retrieval putting the person on the windy side of the bow. Cut the throttle, out of gear and coast until the person is at the swim platform.

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I never said back over them or try to pick them up from the stern...hoping people here are at least that smart.


And yes, the quick stop method is the quickest way to both keep the MOB in sight AND get near (not on) them.


Turning the vessel can mean losing sight of them, especially if short on crew.... don't know how many MOBs you have dealt with, I have searched for many and debriefed many a crew....from small vessels to major ships.


Also putting a person on the upwind side of the vessel may allow the boat to keep blowing away from the MOB if they are unable to self rescue, so you better have a method or maneuvering skills to keep them alongside somehow.

psneeld said:

I never said back over them or try to pick them up from the stern...hoping people here are at least that smart.


And yes, the quick stop method is the quickest way to both keep the MOB in sight AND get near (not on) them.


Turning the vessel can mean losing sight of them, especially if short on crew.... don't know how many MOBs you have dealt with, I have searched for many and debriefed many a crew....from small vessels to major ships.


Also putting a person on the upwind side of the vessel may allow the boat to keep blowing away from the MOB if they are unable to self rescue, so you better have a method or maneuvering skills to keep them alongside somehow.

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I misspoke, the lee side so the boat drifts into the MOB.

My gripe with tech is when it doesn’t work, or doesn’t really make my life easier. And the bar is higher on a boat because failures can have much greater consequences, and be more disruptive than in most other situations.

To me, great advances are self check out, airport check in kiosks, automated toll booths, to name a few.

On the other hand, automated voice systems make me crazy. I see how they benefit vendors, but they do so by making my life more difficult and wasting more of my time. It amazes me that I’m not important enough as a customer for them to have a person rather than a machine address my needs. If that makes me a grumpy old fart, then guilty as charged. Everyone want to “get social”, or “connect with me”. If you want to do that, do it with a person, not a machine

Codger2 said:

Interesting that you posted the MOB drill as that is exactly what I plan on doing in the next couple of days. My question, however, is this: After you selected the MOB function on your plotter did the boat automatically start navigating back to the MOB position? Why did it take 2 miles to accomplish the return?

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Sorry I missed this post until you pointed it out again. It didn't take 2 miles to find the track. We had tossed the man overboard two miles earlier so it took that long along the path to reach the "man". We had assumed we didn't know when the man went overboard so just retracing steps. It automatically started navigating back. Now, we have practiced when we assumed we saw the man go overboard and it returned us quickly to that position.

It's just one of those wonderful tools available with modern autopilots. We have at one time or another tested every available function and setting on our autopilots as we have on other equipment. I was thinking as Menzies posted on the Exuma debacle how useful night vision would have been to the boaters there. It was extremely expensive when it first hit the recreational market and now quite inexpensive in various forms.

twistedtree said:

On the other hand, automated voice systems make me crazy. I see how they benefit vendors, but they do so by making my life more difficult and wasting more of my time. It amazes me that I’m not important enough as a customer for them to have a person rather than a machine address my needs. If that makes me a grumpy old fart, then guilty as charged. Everyone want to “get social”, or “connect with me”. If you want to do that, do it with a person, not a machine

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You share one of my strong dislikes too. I'm also unsure how they benefit anyone. And I hate voice mail in business. You call our business during business hours and the phone will be answered by a live human being. Turning a single phone call into multiple calls until you actually speak just doesn't seem to save. The most efficient way is the most direct and it's resolving what you can with one call. Then half the time with the automated systems, what I'm looking for isn't there so I select other and get another list and select other from it and start yelling into the phone at the recording for a "live human" or "Customer service" or "representative." While at it, what is there with companies that have customers across the country, having customer service only based on one time zone. For our wholesale businesses, customer service is 8 AM - 9 PM Eastern Time so we cover 8 AM - 6 PM in all time zones. Then there are those companies today providing customer service only by chat or email. Most ironic is a large VOIP company that does that. I once asked them if they found their VOIP didn't work or something.

Now, on my personal phone, I will never answer if I don't recognize the number so voice mail is essential. If a voice mail is left, I'll immediately return any legitimate call.

BandB said:

You share one of my strong dislikes too. I'm also unsure how they benefit anyone. And I hate voice mail in business. You call our business during business hours and the phone will be answered by a live human being. Turning a single phone call into multiple calls until you actually speak just doesn't seem to save. The most efficient way is the most direct and it's resolving what you can with one call. Then half the time with the automated systems, what I'm looking for isn't there so I select other and get another list and select other from it and start yelling into the phone at the recording for a "live human" or "Customer service" or "representative." While at it, what is there with companies that have customers across the country, having customer service only based on one time zone. For our wholesale businesses, customer service is 8 AM - 9 PM Eastern Time so we cover 8 AM - 6 PM in all time zones. Then there are those companies today providing customer service only by chat or email. Most ironic is a large VOIP company that does that. I once asked them if they found their VOIP didn't work or something.



Now, on my personal phone, I will never answer if I don't recognize the number so voice mail is essential. If a voice mail is left, I'll immediately return any legitimate call.

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It’s a basic courtesy, if not good business. If I’m not worth answering the phone for, then it’s clear how important a customer I am to you.

Too many companies treat customer service as an overhead expense, and something to be reduced or deflected. They couldn’t be more wrong. It’s the best and easiest opportunity to distinguish yourself from everyone else.

Take care of your customers. Why is that so difficult?

Modern chart plotters now use COB. Crew over board.

Not kidding.

When I worked on a cruise ship, the man over board drills took over 2 hours and would never have resulted in a saved person. Most people can not tread water for 2 hours and would probably have been injurred on the initial fall.

Benthic2 said:

When I worked on a cruise ship, the man over board drills took over 2 hours and would never have resulted in a saved person. Most people can not tread water for 2 hours and would probably have been injurred on the initial fall.

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and often not noticed immediately on large vessels so the recovery time is often longer....


but water temp and sea state are a big factor and many survivors HAVE traded/floated for many hours....



plus we aren't talking big ships here... but boats that can stop in a couple hundred feet or so if the MOB is immediately recognized.....

Cruise ships, they see the MOB, they will put the captain gig in the water as the ship slows down, searching on the back track of the ship with the guidance of the mother ship's bridge.

While on a cruise ship, we were told, if someone is intent on going over the side, they cant be stopped.
They can make it daymned difficult.
My stateroom had a balcony and if I wanted to go over the side, over the railing, crawl across the decking to the edge, (at least 15 ft) then jump. There are so many cameras on board the cruise ship it is almost impossible to do anything without being on a camera. I do not know if the cameras are manned by a designated 'viewer' 24hrs a day.

Benthic2 said:

When I worked on a cruise ship, the man over board drills took over 2 hours and would never have resulted in a saved person. Most people can not tread water for 2 hours and would probably have been injurred on the initial fall.

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I've always told people that come onboard our boat, this and all others previous , that reality is if they go over the side they are dead, so best not.

Saying that, we have managed to get two back on and lost none.
Both times on sailing vessels.

Simi 60 said:

I've always told people that come onboard our boat, this and all others previous , that reality is if they go over the side they are dead, so best not.

Saying that, we have managed to get two back on and lost none.
Both times on sailing vessels.

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The number one defense to a MOB.... Good advice!
...though the captain should have standing orders how to minimize that and BEAT it into some "know it all" passengers.


While MOB recovery is common on small vessels, conditions dictate and best to assume the worst and to minimize the possibility.

psneeld said:

The number one defense to a MOB.... Good advice!
...though the captain should have standing orders how to minimize that and BEAT it into some "know it all" passengers.

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Once years ago, friends of mine had a visitor and I invited the three out on my boat on the lake. Now I had a rear sunpad on my bowrider, but I did not allow anyone on it underway. The rules were to sit in a seat. Their visitor climbed up there and I stopped and made her get down. Then again almost immediately. I guess she didn't realize the boat had a mirror and I could see. That time, any pleasantness I might have shown earlier was gone. I told her if she got back up there, I was going to stop wherever we were and put her out and she could walk back home, once she swam to shore. She didn't get back up but did pout the rest of the trip. I didn't care. My friends apologized to me for her behavior. I know many people ride up there but I also know of those who have fallen off and the tragedy. My boat, my rules.

Our first time guests today are given rules and sign that they've read them all. While the signature perhaps reduces liability, that's not it's purpose. It's to reinforce the importance we place on them.

I've found some people think of water as soft and harmless in some way. It's much of "I won't fall over but if I do I can swim so I'll be fine" kind of attitude. I use to have people wanting me to pull the barefoot skiing since I had a boat fast enough to do so. Typically they wanted to ski at 40 mph or above. I never would as I'd known several to fall and damage their ear drums or get hurt in other ways. Even the professionals get hurt so pulling beginners was not for me. I knew one professional and he told me if you fell at 50 mph, the water felt like landing on pavement. He'd actually had a concussion from a fall once. Water doesn't feel harmless at high speed or falling off an upper deck of a cruise ship. Someone falling over board is still one of my greatest boating fears so I'll do everything possible to keep it from happening.

Fletcher500 said:

There are exceptions, but the majority of people who buy a Pod/Joy stick boat are clueless. They can afford a big boat, so they write a check for immediate entry to a 40 to 50 ft. Plus craft with very little past boating experience. IE, the salesman tells them they will be a docking pro in 2 weeks. They end up being dangerous to themselves and others. Boat handling and seamanship skills were never there in the first place. Again, generalizing, but overall accurate.

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Yes I am a power boater but I always say power boaters are the worst. To many think a boat is like a car. They can hop in, turn the key and go. They have the money to buy but not the knowledge to operate. Sailors are generally more serious and knowledgeable. Don't be angry with me, its my observation and generalization. Although, this last weekend I was anchored next to a mooring field and a 45 foot sailboat came blasting through at about 8 knots. Now we were only 1 of 2 boats present but that was ridiculous. I did yell "kinda fast aren't you?" No comment no change.

Sailboaters are just as bad. My last two near collisions were sailboats not following the rules and I was hit in the slip by one sailboat and another while at anchor this past year.

Percentage wise, that is huge because of the sheer numbers of both I encounter.

I sail too and thinking sailors are better Mariners is not one of my beliefs.

My concern with the technology in this case is when the guy leaves the upper station after enabling the tech. . . .

Technology is great when it works. When it fails, there needs to be a person present who knows the emergency procedure (EP) to initiate in order to get out of the tech induced screw-up. Relying on tech and not being trained in when and how to disable said tech recently let to fatal crashes of two 737 Max aircraft.
The same can be said for engaging auto positioning in a boat and leaving the control station . . .

Just like AFCS (Automatic Flight Control Systems) Tony the Tiger says THEY'RE GREAT! But Tony STILL needs to be able to fly the friggin' aircraft when it screws up!