Concerns From Survey and Sea Trial of 2006 MS34T

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RossWilson

Senior Member
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
237
Location
Ontario, Canada
Vessel Name
Good Vibrations
Vessel Make
Mainship 34T
Hello Everybody:


After my surveyor spent about 90 minutes on the final in-water phase of the survey inspection, we spent an hour or so on the sea trial yesterday aboard the 2006 Mainship 34T with twin 900+ hour Yanmar 240 diesels. (See photo of red-hulled vessel)




It went fairly well, and she moved much faster than I expected at WOT. I learned that the current owners, who accompanied us, were relative novices, and rarely operated at 80% of max RPM as Ive been told is advisable. And to save fuel, which sentiment I truly appreciate, they almost never ran it full out as also recommended occasionally to help reduce carbon buildup. She (the boat - not the owner) did smoke a little, a light grey/white exhaust, when cold started.




However, whilst standing in the cockpit underway, though I couldn't see any smoke, the smell of exhaust was quite strong. The survey, standing beside me, explained that it was the result of the slip-stream that caused the exhaust to be forced back toward the boat. Opinion?




Aside from slowly dripping "dripless" stuffing boxes and what appears to be a leaking seal on the port rudder post, and aside from what appears to be hull paint losing its adhesion, and the failure of the bridge canvas enclosure fitting properly after having been cleaned over the winter, everything looks great. Obviously, the paint and canvas issues are my primary concern. The other issues are easily rectified.




Upon my arrival in the morning,with the boat stern into a covered slip, I failed to notice several white splotches, each about 3-5" in diameter on the port hull just aft of the bow. I noticed them upon our return from the trial. I guess since the owner brought her in bow first, I could easily see the disturbing white marks. But when I did spot them, they'd already left me with the diesel mechanic and broker. So, I wasn't able to inquire about them at the time. When I later raised the issue with the broker, she said nothing, which in itself, I found disturbing.




I had been informed that the marina had, at the seller's request, power buffed and waxed the hull while in heated storage during the winter. During my initial careful inspection, the hull looked great. Later, during my research into Awlgrip paint, I learned that it was a mistake to power buff and wax this paint, that it might have shortened the life of the paint. Could this be the result? Paint falling off the hull after a rigorous sea trial? Maybe the twisting and mild ride was all it took to shake the damaged paint loose? I'll have to get an estimate on re-painting the hull. Any guesses?




While in the covered slip, the surveyor thought the canvas looked fine, except for the fact that many dome fasteners could not be secured. The canvas shrunk from being cleaned and was hanging quite loose in several areas. The broker assured me that with warmer weather, it'll stretch out again and will be fine. Because it was darker in the slip, the surveyor said he didn't notice until we were in the light of day that several seams were already opening. He said the top would definitely leak in the rain, particularly after it was stretched, and that a new enclosure will likely cost over $8000 Cdn.




I've agreed conditionally to pay what I feel was top dollar for an otherwise very clean fresh water vessel that's been well maintained and stored indoors every winter since new. (I had been told there was a competing bid. Not sure there actually was one, but took the broker at her word.) Comments? Opinions? I apologize for the long post, but it's important to me for obvious reasons. Any guidance would be much appreciated.
 
Ross
My Bacchus website has some info an MS hull paint in the Links section.

I did some hull / gelcoat repair and spot painted the area with very good results.
While buffing / wax is not recommended I don't think is results in any instant failure but that's just my opinion. Especially the wax portion - it results in build-up and yellowing over time but nothing catastrophic.
I buffed & waxed mine first season after acquiring it and nothing terrible happened - after learning more I have switched to the Awlcare polymer and like it a lot - easy on/off. The admiral and I do it by hand and it not a bad job.
IMO Awlcraft is not hard to spot patch but it has to be sprayed. I was lucky and had a friends w/ spray equipment & knowledge do mine and I helped him prep & paint a boot stripe on his at the same time. He added several coats of clear top coat after his prime & color. I don't think MS did that but it seems like a good option. Awlcraft can be buffed if necessary but it's not recommended on a regular basis.
I have used the PreVal aerosol sprayer for the Awlgrip/Awlcraft priming spots and it doesn't do a bad job - haven't tried it for topcoat but might when it comes time to do more touch-up small areas.
I was very pleased w/ color match on Awlcraft - I was fortunate as I had paperwork that defined the exact color as Awlgrip/Awlcraft has about a dozen different Blues - Red should be easier.

All in all it sounds like boat is in nice shape and well cared for.
We do like our MS 34HT and felt lucky to find a fresh water one that PO had in a covered slip as well.
Where in Georgian Bay is it currently? (we are getting ready to head that way in a few weeks if NY canals open by then)
Would you leave it on Georgian Bay or bring it closer to home?
 
Diesel smell story sounds right as does white smoke at start and later none. Canvas price does not sound out of line.

Reference awlgrip. NO Buffing. Buffing significantly reduces the life of the paint. Paint will not shake off if it is properly applied. Paint jobs can be expensive. Best to have a professional look to see.

I just painted my boat with awlgrip and expect the paint to last 10 to 15 years, depending on how much time we spend in the Bahamas in the winter.
 
The purchase process for larger boats includes an opportunity for a survey to uncover issues not obvious to the casual observer, and affords an opportunity to negotiate the final price based on results (otherwise what would be point be in conducting a survey).

Accordingly, assuming you remain interested in following through with the purchase, determine reasonable costs to resolve the issues you feel were not accounted for in your original offer and propose a price adjustment based on the survey.

Personally, I would put no weight on discussion of alleged competing offers, especially now that you have entered into a purchase agreement. Even if there were competing offers, those potential purchasers have either moved on or will be more cautious if your deal falls through.

All of the items you identified are likely to be issues any buyer would be concerned about...
 
Be careful

Ross
My Bacchus website has some info an MS hull paint in the Links section.

I did some hull / gelcoat repair and spot painted the area with very good results.
While buffing / wax is not recommended I don't think is results in any instant failure but that's just my opinion. Especially the wax portion - it results in build-up and yellowing over time but nothing catastrophic.
I buffed & waxed mine first season after acquiring it and nothing terrible happened - after learning more I have switched to the Awlcare polymer and like it a lot - easy on/off. The admiral and I do it by hand and it not a bad job.
IMO Awlcraft is not hard to spot patch but it has to be sprayed. I was lucky and had a friends w/ spray equipment & knowledge do mine and I helped him prep & paint a boot stripe on his at the same time. He added several coats of clear top coat after his prime & color. I don't think MS did that but it seems like a good option. Awlcraft can be buffed if necessary but it's not recommended on a regular basis.
I have used the PreVal aerosol sprayer for the Awlgrip/Awlcraft priming spots and it doesn't do a bad job - haven't tried it for topcoat but might when it comes time to do more touch-up small areas.
I was very pleased w/ color match on Awlcraft - I was fortunate as I had paperwork that defined the exact color as Awlgrip/Awlcraft has about a dozen different Blues - Red should be easier.

All in all it sounds like boat is in nice shape and well cared for.
We do like our MS 34HT and felt lucky to find a fresh water one that PO had in a covered slip as well.
Where in Georgian Bay is it currently? (we are getting ready to head that way in a few weeks if NY canals open by then)
Would you leave it on Georgian Bay or bring it closer to home?

According to the manufacturer, awlgrip life can be seriously shortened by buffing. If the paint is awlcraft, I am not so sure.

Gordon
 
Hello Everybody

It went fairly well, and she moved much faster than I expected at WOT. I learned that the current owners, who accompanied us, were relative novices, and rarely operated at 80% of max RPM as Ive been told is advisable. And to save fuel, which sentiment I truly appreciate, they almost never ran it full out as also recommended occasionally to help reduce carbon buildup.

Running at less than 80% of max RPM's is the norm for most of us Mainship owners, single or twins. I've never heard of a Mainship owner having problems with their diesels from running too slow.
 
Ross
Just a few additional comments re: canvas... I have done my own and other canvas jobs as a hobby business.
Sunbrella shouldn't shrink unless it is heated more than it should be. If removed & cleaned it does have a tendency to be tight going back on until it stretches out again. If there are any seams weak or separated I'd recommend restitching before doing any stretching. and don't just do the obvious seams - if some are failing others will be close behind. If you are a DIYer at all having your own sewing machine and learning to do canvas work can pay dividends.
The Sailrite machines are pretty common for individual DIYers and do a pretty decent job - once in awhile you find a used one on the market (I was lucky).
I certainly wouldn't recommend starting with a making a new full bridge enclosure to learn but restitching / repairing panels etc is a great way to start.
There are a few "threads" (pun intended) on DIY canvas work and my Bacchus website has an Intro to DIY Canvas that I put together for our local ABC-FLX boating group.
 
Thanks, Don. That's encouraging. I hadn't thought of patching. And you're probably right that the red would be easier to match. How many reds could there be?


However, if the paint is indeed beginning to fall off, might this just be the beginning of paint adhesion failure of the entire hull? I worry about how many power buffs this hull has undergone in her life.


She's currently moored in a covered slip in Victoria Harbour, southern Georgian Bay, where she'll remain at least for awhile. We plan to travel a fair amount this season around the bay, and possibly down the Trent-Severn and Rideau. Of course, we're experiencing high water levels here too, so am unsure what to plan for travel. We're also unsure whether we'll bring her to Oakville Harbour, or keep her up north. My wife hates the long drive to get there. My solution is to make the drive once and live aboard for the summer. :)
 
As Bachus said, repair the canvas seams before stretching. A good trick is to soak the canvas with water before installing. It allows more stretch initially, and will tighten up as it dries.

Cheers, Bill
 
Thanks Gordon. That's been my feeling too. It's so easy for a marine to just use the machine without checking the manufacture's website for recommendations. Good advice.
 
The purchase process for larger boats includes an opportunity for a survey to uncover issues not obvious to the casual observer, and affords an opportunity to negotiate the final price based on results (otherwise what would be point be in conducting a survey).

Accordingly, assuming you remain interested in following through with the purchase, determine reasonable costs to resolve the issues you feel were not accounted for in your original offer and propose a price adjustment based on the survey.

Personally, I would put no weight on discussion of alleged competing offers, especially now that you have entered into a purchase agreement. Even if there were competing offers, those potential purchasers have either moved on or will be more cautious if your deal falls through.

All of the items you identified are likely to be issues any buyer would be concerned about...
Thanks GMS. Since I want to own this vessel, I definitely will return to the negotiating table after obtaining a rough idea of the cost of repairs and replacements. I just want to be reasonable in this regard, without being duped.
 
According to the manufacturer, awlgrip life can be seriously shortened by buffing. If the paint is awlcraft, I am not so sure.

Gordon
I'm unsure whether its Awlgrip or Awlcraft. Consensus opinion seems to indicate the latter. Nevertheless, I'd still not power buff.
 
As far as the exhaust smell, the configuration of the boat will cause the station wagon effect and suck the exhaust up into the cockpit, this is unwanted but normal due to the sedan style. You may reduce the smell by opening a forward facing hatch to break the suction. You may have to experiment a bit with different hatches or windows open. Diesels typically don’t produce much CO like a gasser would but the smell can be annoying.
 
Running at less than 80% of max RPM's is the norm for most of us Mainship owners, single or twins. I've never heard of a Mainship owner having problems with their diesels from running too slow.
Maybe the only adverse effect of running slow is carbon build-up? And maybe that can be rectified by an occasional brief WOT run?
 
Ross
My Bacchus website has some info an MS hull paint in the Links section.

I did some hull / gelcoat repair and spot painted the area with very good results.
While buffing / wax is not recommended I don't think is results in any instant failure but that's just my opinion. Especially the wax portion - it results in build-up and yellowing over time but nothing catastrophic.
I buffed & waxed mine first season after acquiring it and nothing terrible happened - after learning more I have switched to the Awlcare polymer and like it a lot - easy on/off. The admiral and I do it by hand and it not a bad job.
IMO Awlcraft is not hard to spot patch but it has to be sprayed. I was lucky and had a friends w/ spray equipment & knowledge do mine and I helped him prep & paint a boot stripe on his at the same time. He added several coats of clear top coat after his prime & color. I don't think MS did that but it seems like a good option. Awlcraft can be buffed if necessary but it's not recommended on a regular basis.
I have used the PreVal aerosol sprayer for the Awlgrip/Awlcraft priming spots and it doesn't do a bad job - haven't tried it for topcoat but might when it comes time to do more touch-up small areas.
I was very pleased w/ color match on Awlcraft - I was fortunate as I had paperwork that defined the exact color as Awlgrip/Awlcraft has about a dozen different Blues - Red should be easier.

All in all it sounds like boat is in nice shape and well cared for.
We do like our MS 34HT and felt lucky to find a fresh water one that PO had in a covered slip as well.
Where in Georgian Bay is it currently? (we are getting ready to head that way in a few weeks if NY canals open by then)
Would you leave it on Georgian Bay or bring it closer to home?
BTW - I've visited your website a couple of time. Very helpful, Don.
 
Ross
If you can find an experienced boat painter in the area it would be worth having them look and offer an opinion. Probably only way to know for sure. It certainly can be a negotiating point - not following mfg recommendation and obvious issues...
Good luck w/ the deal and advebtures
 
Ross
Just a few additional comments re: canvas... I have done my own and other canvas jobs as a hobby business.
Sunbrella shouldn't shrink unless it is heated more than it should be. If removed & cleaned it does have a tendency to be tight going back on until it stretches out again. If there are any seams weak or separated I'd recommend restitching before doing any stretching. and don't just do the obvious seams - if some are failing others will be close behind. If you are a DIYer at all having your own sewing machine and learning to do canvas work can pay dividends.
The Sailrite machines are pretty common for individual DIYers and do a pretty decent job - once in awhile you find a used one on the market (I was lucky).
I certainly wouldn't recommend starting with a making a new full bridge enclosure to learn but restitching / repairing panels etc is a great way to start.
There are a few "threads" (pun intended) on DIY canvas work and my Bacchus website has an Intro to DIY Canvas that I put together for our local ABC-FLX boating group.
Thanks again, Don. I'll see how negotiations go and what develops. I'm not exactly a seamstress, but your advice is certainly sound.
 
As Bachus said, repair the canvas seams before stretching. A good trick is to soak the canvas with water before installing. It allows more stretch initially, and will tighten up as it dries.

Cheers, Bill
Thanks, Bill. Will keep this in mind. A looming expesce of entire enclosure replacement is drifting into the fog. :)
 
As far as the exhaust smell, the configuration of the boat will cause the station wagon effect and suck the exhaust up into the cockpit, this is unwanted but normal due to the sedan style. You may reduce the smell by opening a forward facing hatch to break the suction. You may have to experiment a bit with different hatches or windows open. Diesels typically don’t produce much CO like a gasser would but the smell can be annoying.
That's a good idea. I could open the centre window of the windshield, or possibly crack the forward hatch a tad. Good advice.
 
Ross
If you can find an experienced boat painter in the area it would be worth having them look and offer an opinion. Probably only way to know for sure. It certainly can be a negotiating point - not following mfg recommendation and obvious issues...
Good luck w/ the deal and advebtures
Thanks again, Don. Will do.
 
I'm unsure whether its Awlgrip or Awlcraft. Consensus opinion seems to indicate the latter. Nevertheless, I'd still not power buff.

Awlcraft is easily repaired and is buffable. Awlgrip, not so much. Do a search on Awlgrip Vs Awlcraft and you'll see the differences and recommendations. Different chemistry. I put Awlcraft on My boat and have been very pleased..Seems as tough as the Awlgrip I had on my last boat..
 
If you think the paint has adhesion issues, it's flaking off, and if you care and if you want to remedy it correctly the only way is to remove the existing paint and repaint. Putting new paint over old paint that is flaking off is a waste of money. To remove the old paint and repaint the hull is quite a bit of labor, I'd think it'd be easily $30k by the time you include haulout and laydays.
 
Awlcraft is easily repaired and is buffable. Awlgrip, not so much. Do a search on Awlgrip Vs Awlcraft and you'll see the differences and recommendations. Different chemistry. I put Awlcraft on My boat and have been very pleased..Seems as tough as the Awlgrip I had on my last boat..
Thanks, Steve. I've done the research and understand the difference between Awlgrip and Awlcraft 2000. I agree that it would be an expensive undertaking. I'll take a closer look at the hull, hopefully with a qualified painter and/or surveyor.
 
If you think the paint has adhesion issues, it's flaking off, and if you care and if you want to remedy it correctly the only way is to remove the existing paint and repaint. Putting new paint over old paint that is flaking off is a waste of money. To remove the old paint and repaint the hull is quite a bit of labor, I'd think it'd be easily $30k by the time you include haulout and laydays.
Thanks Sean. Good advice. But $30 grand! in USD? That's over $40k Cdn!! If that's the case, it could be a deal killer.
 
If you have the canvas restitched only use Tenara thread. It will last the life of the canvas where poly thread will last 3 to 4 years before it dies. The incremental cost of Tenara should not be more than $120 for an entire spool of Tenara thread. The labor vastly outweighs the extra cost of the thread.
 
Talk to your local boatyard that does painting. Explain to them that the existing paint is flaking and what it'd cost to remove the existing paint and repaint. The problem with flaking paint is that you don't know where it stops. It could be a small section with bad adhesion or the whole boat. Because you can't tell and painting is so expensive that it doesn't make sense to take a chance of not making sure that the prep was done correctly.
If it's important to you that the paint is not flaking and unless this boat is a smoking deal I'd keep looking.

Thanks Sean. Good advice. But $30 grand! in USD? That's over $40k Cdn!! If that's the case, it could be a deal killer.
 
Greetings,
Mr. RW. For the $$ you anticipate spending, the paint and canvas should be top notch IMO. You may be hard pressed to find a qualified person(s) to advise you on these items in Kingston. I have dealt with Quinte Canvas in the past and would NOT recommend their work. Over priced and shoddy IMO.



Another potential problem, if one can call it so, is the space in the ER with 2 engines. I looked up other MS 34's and even with one engine, there does not seem to be much room. Your call on that one.


I can tell from the tone of your posts that you are excited about this boat and she DOES show well (I looked her up) but this is NOT the time to be emotional IN ANY WAY! I advise TOTAL pragmatism. Tough to say but there ARE other boats out there. Both eyes open and patience, my friend.
 
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The exhaust you're seeing doesn't sound out of line. Particularly for what is probably the first run of the season. The fact that is starting 'campering' in can occur with wind at your stern.

The paint sounds like an adhesion issue, which is the result of improper prep and application. Buffing the top won't impact it's adhesion to the hull.

White splotches could be repairs (it's a used boat, bumps happen). It could be where someone has used a cutting agent and buffed through the paint. (hard to tell without seeing it).

Canvas and isinglass require replacing every now and then. Maybe sunbrella doesn't shrink, but it sure seems like Isinglass does. Isinglass does tend to stretch a bit more in the heat. They are always tough to fit in the spring, particular in cool weather.

There isn't anything on this list that would have me concerned at all. I almost assume going into a used boat that I'm going to need to do some heavy compounding and buffing, replace canvas and isinglass, electronics, anchor and rhode, and scrutinize all pumps and hoses with anticipation of replacement.
 
If you have the canvas restitched only use Tenara thread. It will last the life of the canvas where poly thread will last 3 to 4 years before it dies. The incremental cost of Tenara should not be more than $120 for an entire spool of Tenara thread. The labor vastly outweighs the extra cost of the thread.
Thanks, Commodave. I'll remember the word Tenara. Good advice.
 
Talk to your local boatyard that does painting. Explain to them that the existing paint is flaking and what it'd cost to remove the existing paint and repaint. The problem with flaking paint is that you don't know where it stops. It could be a small section with bad adhesion or the whole boat. Because you can't tell and painting is so expensive that it doesn't make sense to take a chance of not making sure that the prep was done correctly.
If it's important to you that the paint is not flaking and unless this boat is a smoking deal I'd keep looking.
That's the challenge, Sean. These MS trawlers are extremely rare in Ontario. I'd been looking for one for several months, finally found this one when it was listed in January, negotiated a purchase subject to satisfactory survey, and continued watching for new listings here. Nothing showed up since. That's why they command higher than expected prices, and why buyers must be prepared to pay. I just prefer to avoid being taken to the bank. My philosophy is that if both parties are not completely happy, then it's a fair deal.
 

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