PILOTHOUSE: On deck vs. Raised vs. Full Standing

This discussion is in regards to three possible locations for a pilothouse for a large trawler:

1. On the main deck, same level as salon/galley, no aft visibility;
2. Raised (or semi-raised), usually about 3-4 feet, so a short flight of stairs up, with visibility aft;
3. Fully independent, on top of the main deck, requiring a full flight of stairs.

My wife argues against the "FULL" pilothouse, which I point out has great 360' visibility, plus the coolness factor, but she argues that it is too separated from the main happenings, especially from the galley where she would be spending time. Plus there's the loss of space for the full stairs.

Flush on the main deck would be best for the above argument, and perhaps the semi-raised version is a good compromise.

My big boat had a full PH on the main deck, with the salon/galley being depressed. I loved the aft visibility I have to admit. It was a half flight of stairs up and perhaps was a bit separated at times from the social crowd.

I was wondering perhaps those who have full PH's think about the negatives as well as positives.

My 42 Nordic Tug has a traditional pilothouse up three steps from the Galley and saloon. I have some visibility aft, but it’s not great, due to the small aft windows in the pilothouse. Still, it’s a bit better than I had on the Ranger Tugs, which had the helm in the main living area, and up about 10 inches.


I like the pilothouse better though, and enjoy having guests hang out there while underway.

Mako

The best ways to see aft on any vessel when entering of leaving a dock is to
-- Have the crew on a headset standing aft
-- Have an aft or beam steering station
-- Have good side doors
-- Perform these maneuvers from a flybridge
-- Utilize strategically placed cameras

Vessel layout transcends Pilothouse vs ?? Other scenarios. Many things have to click.

My boat has a full fly bridge above the salon. Visibility is excellent from up there and that's where people spend their time when on the boat. The galley is on the same level as the salon so if we're anchored or a meal is being prepared (which usually happens when we're anchored) people congregate in the salon.


My visibility to the stern is zero. That's not a problem when backing into our slip because I know if I'm aligned properly on the port side where visibility is good, then the other side is going to be OK. All I have to do is align the boat with the slip as I make my approach.


Having had a few different design boats I like having the fly bridge up where everyone can see.

makobuilders said:

....., but she argues that it is too separated from the main happenings, especially from the galley where she would be spending time. Plus there's the loss of space for the full stairs.....
....I was wondering perhaps those who have full PH's think about the negatives as well as positives.

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You can love a full pilot house, compromise on a raised pilot house and learn to live with no visibility astern. But the underlined above is in my mind the main point to consider. To keep everyone happy it's hard to beat upper and lower helms. The lower in the main saloon / galley area.

It's a trite old saying but worth keeping in mind "Happy wife. Happy life."

I was always under the impression that a pilothouse was a few steps up from the salon and a few steps down from the fly bridge. Otherwise it's either an upper or lower helm or both. For docking it's hard to beat a cockpit controls, especially when stern in.

Spent some time on a friend's boat that had what you'd qualify as a "full" pilot house; very steep set of many stairs to get there from living areas. Part of the answer here might be related to your age and agility. Personally as i get older (even in my dirt home) i'd like to eliminate or reduce the number of stairs i have to deal with.
There are some in your "raised PH" category that i much prefer, like Nordic or American tugs, where the PH is high with great visibility, yet at least on an AT I was on recently, you could also see very well aft by looking down the short staircase through the cockpit door and windows, as well as two aft windows in the PH itself.
But overall i'm with you on having a PH. If you haven't done so, take the wife to a few boat shows where you can climb around on some different boats to see what you both prefer......

We like the full pilot house for the reduced engine noise when cruising. Being forward and separated from the engine, it reduces the ambient engine noise significantly.

Another plus is when we’re doing passages, the rest of the boat can stay dark so the off watch person isn’t disturbed by the on watch activities.

A down side was when I first cruised on Hobo. The pilot house Is pretty far forward in the hull. In big seas it took me a while to get use to the motion after coming from a cutter rigged sailboat.

Here’s our stairs from the saloon to the pilot house. A grab rail on the right and 4 stairs. If the stairs become an issue, well....

Mako,
Personally, when we were boat hunting, having a pilothouse "separate" from the main salon/galley was something on our "really want" list. We are very happy with the layout of our Nordic Tug (as Spinner stated), and not just for the pilothouse.
We did not want a flybridge on our boat (but would not have been a dealbreaker if most all else was good).

In my humble opinion, these are examples of "to each his/her own", and only you and your wife can decide what works best for your situation and desires. There is no "right answer" to this that others can give you.
My advice, is to get on board as many different boats (layouts) as you can. Poke around, look around carefully, and discuss the pros and cons of these layouts (and other features) with your wife as you are on board.
If you have other features that you are still not sure about, then check those out as well, then make lists such as "must have", "nice to have", "don't want", etc. For example: flybridge or no, single or twin engine, planing, semi-displacement, or full, etc., etc. Think about all of this from the perspective of how you envision actually using the boat including docking, anchoring, type of cruising, how long, and of course future resale.
Try to find your last boat first (or next if you already own one), as it will end up being less expensive in the long run that way (thanks to Comodave for that one).
Good luck on your decisions,
Tom

We have a raised pilothouse now and really like it as the design tends to make a vessel with a moderate LOA "feel" larger, mostly through separation of public, working and private spaces. That said, we love flushdecks for the incredible space a "double decker" design offers along with an aft master. Finally the fist time I climbed a flight of stairs into the "full pilothouse" on a Nordhavn 62 I wept a bit.

OK, a wept a lot.

As we consider any future boats which may involve extended cruising or even full time liveaboard status - the flush deck is what speaks to both of us the most. Feels like an apartment with a roof deck (flybridge), walk in engine room and good separation between owner and guest cabins.

With a raised pilothouse you get good vision forward so that the flybridge can be kept open for use in good weather, and you don't have the hassle/ugliness of the clears (oxygen tent). I don't have much visibility aft, but two side doors fix that. If reversing into a berth using the flybridge works well for visibility also.

I think I have 5 steps up from the galley/salon to the RPH, and a couple more than that up to the flybridge. Having some stairs on board provides a bit of exercise, and area/function separation has its pluses.

Aquabelle is a flushdeck version of my hull, and the aft master is really good. They gain an extra cabin with my midship master becoming a queen VIP on the flushdeck. The flow of helm to galley/salon is also nice. Another plus is the flat upper deck, which gives expansive al fresco entertaining options. On my RPH, the upper (boat deck) is broken up by two steps down from the flybridge helm.

But on balance I prefer my RPH to the flushdeck design. With a flushdeck you have stairs down to the aft cabin that are very intrusive into the salon, taking a lot of space as they are a full flight. And in a flushdeck there is a disconnect between the salon and cockpit. The RPH has 'europa-style' french doors between the salon and cockpit, which in warmer climates is ideal.

I agree with some other posters: you have to consider the total GA of the boat, flow to/from areas, as well as your local climate conditions, cruising areas and accommodation needs. Half flights of stairs linking areas can work very well aesthetically, and give very good compromise for utility. I would never be without my RPH!

This was our first PH boat, so I can’t comment on the different types. From an aesthetic standpoint I always though the low rise PH boats looked cooler.

Much of course depends on your cruising area and we enjoy a mix of canal and sea.
We have an upper and lower deck helm position, we use the upper deck in good weather when cruising the canals and the lower helm when cruising at sea.
Bridge height is a factor for canal cruising so an upper deck is the maximum for us and it also gives the full 360 for lock entering/leaving/mooring and of course social evenings when moored.
We find the lower helm far more comfortable at sea as we can each take a trick at the helm while the other rests/cooks etc. The lower centre of gravity is also a factor with a less and smaller arc of roll.
But everyone has their own favourites and we appreciate that but as has been said many times Happy wife=Happy life and my wife loves our boats layout

One of the big things I liked about our old Hatteras flush deck 56MY was 360 degree visibility from the lower helm, and no steps to negotiate anywhere on the main deck, side to side and stem to stern. And Ann loved having the galley down. Even the new modern design Hatteras 60MY has much the same ergonomics if you get the lower helm, given a "see through" galley up, but still flush deck. Personally I look at a lot of these boat designs and see one trip and fall after another for those of us less sprightly and physically adept.

We absolutely love our raised pilothouse. It really defines the boat and is our primary living space. It's three steps up from the saloon. We have quite good visibility aft - especially if the dinghy is not on the boat-deck. We can seat up to 6 comfortably in the wheelhouse so we eat our meals up there when underway and often at anchor where we get a great 360 deg. view.

The downsides are:
1) More motion in a seaway due to being well forward and quite high - full headroom
for me at 6'6".

2) Bow tends to blow off in a breeze at anchor - more windage forward. A riding sail would correct this but I haven't got round to rigging one in 15 years! I have, on occasion, rigged an anchor snubber to one side to hold the bow over.

If we ever get another boat it would need to have a pilothouse, but I haven't seen one as practical as ours on any production boat

When looking at boats, you can have preferred features, but whether they work depends on how the rest of the boat is laid out.

I really like my pilothouse with the 270 degree visibility it gives me, the elevated position without having to hang on, heat / air conditioning or open doors, 5 step staircase to the saloon, and a host of other features. The compromises are poor visibility astern and no side decks for docking. As with almost anything, there is no perfect, just acceptable compromises.



Very safe stairs from the saloon to the pilothouse.





While stern visibility is poor from the pilothouse, nothing beats a stern docking station for stern in or side tie, especially when traveling solo. Only thing missing is a starboard side deck.



Ted

I like everything on the same deck, visually it opens up the view and the interior seems larger, much like the latest fad to open kitchens. I have this in my 29 foot express cruiser and many comment on how the boat appears larger than it is in relation to interior space. To use Nordic Tug as an example, you lose space by having a separate helm area, you loose contact with your guests while cruising.

I do have visibility to the rear but I have found I just don't do the head checks I should be doing, guests at the helm don't do proper head checks, and when I ask guests to give me updates on what's coming up behind me, they forget to do it.

So I am installing this Garmin radar so that anything from behind shows "in the red" and I know the approaching vessel should get my attention. Its easy for guests to be oriented, I say: "Anything approaching from the stern that is red, watch it and if you have any concerns let me now right away."

If you plan to travel much at night the helmsman is going to want to be away from the activity and the light. If you frequently travel in heavy weather the off watch group is going to want to be low and amidships maybe the helmsman as well. At anchor or dockside big open livable spaces without steering wheels and nav gear are more homey and usually preferred. It seems to be a problem Grand Banks is also trying to figure out by offering all of the above as options on their new 60. Obviously there is no perfect answer or boat for that matter. Stairs can be a problem for some, best dealt with via exercise. Stay fit or have knee surgery seems to be the only two options if you go that route.

First question, How old are your knees?

FF said:

First question, How old are your knees?

Click to expand...

What's the normal lifespan of knees? With routine maintenance won't knees last a long time? LMAO! Lubricate the internal moving parts and when they fail replace with aftermarket!

A lot of good points above. Thanks everyone

The night time issue isn't that big a deal. During my Canadian destroyer days, we would use a red light to orient the eyes. If you install a dim red light, lets say over the dinette away from the helm area, you're good to go. Also the warm glow from the MFD is always there.... lol.

We have a Nordic Tug 37 & really like the raised pilot house. We like the fact that it defines the helm as a serious dedicated navigational space with good visibility. The chart table is there for navigational purposes & not doubling up as a space to hold dirty dishes & culinary instruments as in some vessels sharing the helm with the galley.

Having said that, the helm station makes for a lovely happy hour lounge when at anchor.

Another point that hasn't been mentioned. On the KK42 RPH, there are doors both sides so only 2 steps to open the door and take a peek aft. I encourage my helmsman to do that often. The doors are open when docking. I took the helm chair out so it is easy for the helmsman to move around, crouch down to make sure the dinghy is still there through the saloon windows and peek out the tiny aft-facing portholes. When I have to sit, I am on the bench seat behind the helm with the autopilot control handy.

I'm a newbie and still looking for a boat so this may be an absurd comment.

If visibility aft is a problem with a raised pilothouse, can't you install a backup camera like the ones in pickup trucks to help hook up a trailer?

Rear View Camera

Liz, I had a rear-view video camera mounted on the Celestial, an Albin 43 Sun Deck Trawler. I also had a camera mounted in the engine compartment. A simple switch on the monitor provided selection between sources. The system worked very well. That was an old system, I am sure newer ones are available. One has to make sure that the rear view is corrected, so that what is on the left shows on the monitor as on the left. A standard camera and monitor does not do that. The problem with automotive type backup cameras is the field of view (angle) automotive types are too wide. A narrower field of view is required. Unfortunately, the Celestial was lost in Hurricane Michael, so I can offer no additional information. I used security type cameras and monitors.

Thanks so much for the info. I'm looking for a trawler to do the Loop and I will be solo. Good to know that I can copy what you did. Although I hope that 99.999999 percent of the time I should be moving forward!

Liz

Liz, I did the Loop solo in 2017. While visibility is poor aft, between AIS and radar, very little sneaks up on me. Much of the loop is more confined water, so most of what is coming up behind you is goind to avoid you or call to arrange passing. For the areas with ships, tugs and barges, I run the radar when underway.

Ted

I preferred to cruise my Grand Banks 42 Classic from the lower station where visibility aft was restricted. The attached photo shows how I raised the dinghy rack to enable me to look aft from the lower helm through the larger of the two windows at the aft end of the main cabin. It was not a perfect solution, but raising it those 24 inches had other benefits as well. I always moored and unmoored operating from the flying bridge.

So why the preference for the lower helm? It was definitely cooler in the hot weather in which we often operated thanks to the shade on the overhead deck from the large bimini and several inches of hard foam in the overhead. Oh, and that is where the food was.

In night or foggy cruising, I was more at ease as that is where the single radar display was as well other controls not repaeted on the FB. Night visibility was one reason I never coated the windows with any film but rather used a see-through mesh over the windows during hot sunny days, except the forward and aft windows when operating down below.

360 degrees and port and starboard doors.