Opinion- accepting a new boat

Before accepting delivery of new construction, would it be good practice to have a surveyor inspect the boat before
the final check is written?

It depends on the size of the boat. If it is a large boat it probably would be a good idea.

Yes it would be a good deal. Being new doesn't mean there are things not compliant. A surveyor would be able to spot items in which would need to be fixed before taking delivery.

I agree with ASD.
For our last boat, a sailboat, we ordered new. Had her surveyed, and several items were found to be “problematic”. All items were repaired right away before delivery or the final check being issued. The broker still had “incentive” to get the issues dealt with in a very timely manner.
I would go that route again if I were to buy new.

Great Harbor....TT 35.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s63/splash-tt35-hull-1-a-43015.html

PKPet said:

Before accepting delivery of new construction, would it be good practice to have a surveyor inspect the boat before
the final check is written?

Click to expand...

It depends on the seller. North Pacific was no problem. They took care of any and all issues during commissioning and continue to back me up. Carver did too but dropped me like a hot rock once the warrantee expired. Even a major issue with the generator that they couldn't figure out from the very beginning. Once the warrantee expired they stopped working on it. That really pissed me off.

A good surveyor will pick up on all the issues before the check is written and while you still hold all the power. I probably should have had both my new boats surveyed prior to purchase but I'm not that smart.

"Before accepting delivery of new construction, would it be good practice to have a surveyor inspect the boat before
the final check is written?"

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

And a sea trial. as there is only so much that can be examined with out being underway.

Yes to having a survey before acceptance. The only caveat that I would give to that is that they won't find everything. If I were going to invest in a new boat, it would take me a solid week of crawling around to satisfy myself. You are asking a person who may have looked at a couple of the model of boat you're buying to find any errors in a day? While they may have a trained eye for looking, the sheer volume and complexity of your average million dollar boat isn't going to be fully examined in a day. That why the surveyor's contract has an errors and omissions clause for the stuff they miss.

Ultimately, it's still up to you to do your own survey as well.

Ted

On larger new builds it is common that a "person" (way more skilled and trained than your normal surveyor) familiar with that brand spends time at the factory watching for known defects and problem areas. Once into vessels that will be fully crewed the Captain may well live at the build site.

All boat builders' labor force can have a bad day. Many of these bad day problems will go unnoticed until or beyond commissioning time. I've spent time with commissioning skilled brand specific surveyors who go right to these known problem areas and assess the severity of the factory induced oops. Some are minor, some not. On this point I'm speaking of well known and high end brands.

For a near million dollar or more vessel, budgeting for a truly skilled professional with that brand's experience can prove a wise move. Rarely will new build issues hit a site like like TF. But they do whether an outboard powered Cutwater, bad drive train on a Seahorse or flop like the TT.

The notion that North Pacific, Nordhavn, Fleming or Westport build the perfect vessel has been proven wrong time and again. A boat is a complex thing and an oops or twenty is to be expected. A very smart owner, "person" or assigned crew can spot many issues as the vessel goes together. Commissioning can hopefully find and assess the rest.

So yes, once beyond an FRP rowboat, oversight is always a good idea. A friend of mine was in charge of QA/QC for a large builder. Great stories on what he found going on in his large factory. Upon retirement he was hired to look after various offshore new builds by the owner. The stories get even better.

I'd venture a guess that Steve D has a story or two on this subject.

FF said:

"Before accepting delivery of new construction, would it be good practice to have a surveyor inspect the boat before
the final check is written?"

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

And a sea trial. as there is only so much that can be examined with out being underway.

Click to expand...

Wifey B: But you didn't put enough "Yes!'s". More YES YES YES. It's not just have the survey and have a nice shakedown, but it's get all issues fixed before final acceptance. A lot easier before final payment than after.

One builder, no issues, all well. Builder two, minor things, they said they'd fix at our convenience. We said now, before final check. Less than 24 hours. Builder three, same deal but they got them all that afternoon. Fortunately all minor things.

However, tragic stories of new boats with major flaws never fixed by the builder and buyer finally just took to others and paid out of their pocket at great cost to get the boat they were supposed to new. Then a couple of boats with design flaws that functioned but never handled right.

Survey survey survey.

sunchaser said:

On larger new builds it is common that a "person" (way more skilled and trained than your normal surveyor) familiar with that brand spends time at the factory watching for known defects and problem areas. Once into vessels that will be fully crewed the Captain may well live at the build site.



All boat builders' labor force can have a bad day. Many of these bad day problems will go unnoticed until or beyond commissioning time. I've spent time with commissioning skilled brand specific surveyors who go right to these known problem areas and assess the severity of the factory induced oops. Some are minor, some not. On this point I'm speaking of well known and high end brands.



For a near million dollar or more vessel, budgeting for a truly skilled professional with that brand's experience can prove a wise move. Rarely will new build issues hit a site like like TF. But they do whether an outboard powered Cutwater, bad drive train on a Seahorse or flop like the TT.



The notion that North Pacific, Nordhavn, Fleming or Westport build the perfect vessel has been proven wrong time and again. A boat is a complex thing and an oops or twenty is to be expected. A very smart owner, "person" or assigned crew can spot many issues as the vessel goes together. Commissioning can hopefully find and assess the rest.



So yes, once beyond an FRP rowboat, oversight is always a good idea. A friend of mine was in charge of QA/QC for a large builder. Great stories on what he found going on in his large factory. Upon retirement he was hired to look after various offshore new builds by the owner. The stories get even better.



I'd venture a guess that Steve D has a story or two on this subject.

Click to expand...

This is very, very good advice. And you should go along with this expert as you will learn lots in the process.

Jim

This might answer your question: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/sample-inspection-reports/

Before accepting delivery of new construction, would it be good practice to have a surveyor inspect the boat before the final check is written?

Click to expand...

- PKPet
Hi PKPet:


Would it be possible to get more details? Are you having a new Nauset 33 built, or some other brand?


I ask because if you are having, perhaps, a new center console built, then yes, a survey before final payment is a good idea.


If you are having a new trawler or cruiser built, i.e. a boat that includes all of the liveaboard and safety systems necessary for long term cruising, my response will be more in depth.


Cheers,
Pea

One caveat Miz Trom's post reminds me of. You may have a contract subject to survey, you may survey and major issues remain, and you may still be in trouble with an unscrupulous builder. I've known people with several different builders to end up held hostage. It's pay me the rest or you don't get the boat. Now, you owe a little, have paid a lot, and you either have to sue to get your boat or pay the ransom. Then after that you have the choice of suing or absorbing the loss.

Three specifics.
1-Boat had major issues found in inspection. Builder refused to fix. Buyer sued and won entire amount plus interest and return of boat.
2-Boat wasn't finished and was held hostage. Suit but builder went bankrupt. Buyer got boat and had finished by someone else.
3-Boat failed survey, builder refused to fix. Buyer paid the ransom, took boat, had it fixed at their expense.

I could list others, but the reality is the survey won't protect you from a dishonest builder. It will inform you and may help in court if you go that route although I could point to cases where it didn't there because of other issues with the case and lack of buyer credibility. Choose your builder carefully. Still survey.

Bottom line in all the above? Get it surveyed before you accept it or future repairs will be on you,

BandB said:

One caveat Miz Trom's post reminds me of. You may have a contract subject to survey, you may survey and major issues remain, and you may still be in trouble with an unscrupulous builder. I've known people with several different builders to end up held hostage. It's pay me the rest or you don't get the boat. Now, you owe a little, have paid a lot, and you either have to sue to get your boat or pay the ransom. Then after that you have the choice of suing or absorbing the loss.

Three specifics.
1-Boat had major issues found in inspection. Builder refused to fix. Buyer sued and won entire amount plus interest and return of boat.
2-Boat wasn't finished and was held hostage. Suit but builder went bankrupt. Buyer got boat and had finished by someone else.
3-Boat failed survey, builder refused to fix. Buyer paid the ransom, took boat, had it fixed at their expense.

I could list others, but the reality is the survey won't protect you from a dishonest builder. It will inform you and may help in court if you go that route although I could point to cases where it didn't there because of other issues with the case and lack of buyer credibility. Choose your builder carefully. Still survey.

Click to expand...

As suggested, one should choose their builder carefully and that includes a lot of due diligence, specially, if you are having a boat built for you. Check organizations like the BBB and check with other owners who used the builder. One might think social media would reveal major issues with a builder but many buyers won't go public with bad experiences with their builder. A potential buyer might want to check court records to get a feeling if a builder has been litigated by previous buyers. Unfortunately, many end in settlements without the story coming out.

Check to see if a Naval Architect was involved in designing the boat. The most successful and most desired boat designs have a Naval Architect behind them.

Before buying the boat, READ READ READ the contract and assess how willing you might be to go to court if the builder doesn't deliver a quality product or doesn't fully comply with the terms of the contract. The ugly truth is most of us don't want to be involved in litigation even if we are completely in the right.

Insist the contract state the builder will comply with ABYC standards.

It is rare for almost everyone to agree on TF but in this thread, all seem to agree to get the boat surveyed. And keep in mind, your insurance company will most likely make you survey it anyway.

Myself and two surveyor friends have been going to the Toronto boat show together for around 25yrs/. our goal is to find a cruising type boat that complies with Transport Canada legal requirements and ABYC Standards.
We have not found one yet, not even the ones that claim to be built "using" ABYC Standards.

Note that when you see that ABYC label on a new boat it does not say "Built to ABYC Standards" It says " Built Using ABYC Standards" and people wonder why I'm a little cynical.

BP

Sounds like you are ready to go into the boat building business and show how it is done to your personal acceptance level. BTW, are ABYC guidelines standards or recommendations? Then Euro and Australian guidelines for those locale built boats. Now Transport Canada enters the fray. Whew!

sunchaser said:

BP

Sounds like you are ready to go into the boat building business and show how it is done to your personal acceptance level. BTW, are ABYC guidelines standards or recommendations? Then Euro and Australian guidelines for those locale built boats. Now Transport Canada enters the fray. Whew!

Click to expand...

Many ABYC Standards are required by Transport Canada and they have been trying to do away with their own standards for years and replace them entirely with ABYC. The problem has been they are unable to get Quebec to agree to French translations. My point is simply that no builder I have ever seen builds to the required Transport Canada standards or ABYC Standards even tho' they say (imply) that they do.

Miz Trom said:

- PKPet
Hi PKPet:


Would it be possible to get more details? Are you having a new Nauset 33 built, or some other brand?


I ask because if you are having, perhaps, a new center console built, then yes, a survey before final payment is a good idea.


If you are having a new trawler or cruiser built, i.e. a boat that includes all of the liveaboard and safety systems necessary for long term cruising, my response will be more in depth.


Cheers,
Pea

Click to expand...

I had the Nauset built in 1997. I am retiring in 2 years and would like to cruise with friends and still continue to fish for tuna and strippers. My new boat needs to be 40 ft with 2 staterooms and a cockpit designed to fish. Unfortunately I can’t find one that cruises and fishes. Hence I am designing a boat with Nauset. A boat unfortunately can’t do all things well.

PKPet said:

I had the Nauset built in 1997. I am retiring in 2 years and would like to cruise with friends and still continue to fish for tuna and strippers. My new boat needs to be 40 ft with 2 staterooms and a cockpit designed to fish. Unfortunately I can’t find one that cruises and fishes. Hence I am designing a boat with Nauset. A boat unfortunately can’t do all things well.

Click to expand...

I am also talking to Trevor at North Pacific. We’ve discussed creating an asymmetrical Sedan 44 with a molded stairway to the bridge for safety and ease of ascent. I have a center console for fishing but I would like to consolidate function in one boat. Trevor has been very accommodating. A lot of factors to consider.

Hi PKPet:


Thank you for the info on your experience and boat design wishes. I love molded stairs to the bridge, too. Great for dogs and older folks.


You've been around the block a few times, so I will keep this short because I imagine you have already considered all of these suggestions.


Basically, I would recommend that before you choose a builder, ask here on TF about others experiences with said builder. As BandB notes, "choose your builder carefully." That's #1.


If you are having a new hull form built, or an old hull form modified, then you and the builder absolutely must employ a naval architect, as Donsan notes.


Then ask the builder you have chosen if they would mind if you have the boat systems surveyed before you make each build payment. If they readily agree, that could be a good indicator of a conscientious builder.


This will also give you confidence in your new boat as you have the electrical, plumbing and other "hidden" systems inspected prior to installation of the interior flooring, walls and cabinetry. You may wish to attend each of these inspections simply for the learning opportunity.


Have you looked into Zimmerman Marine? I have heard phenomenal reports on their custom builds and repairs.

https://www.passagemaker.com/trawler-news/zimmerman-marine-adds-southport-boatyard


ABYC standards are voluntary for a reason. ABYC was formed back in the 1950's with two primary goals. The first goal was to improve safety for the boating public. The second goal of the larger boat manufacturers was to keep gov't regulations out of the boat building industry by making the industry self-policing. ABYC has largely succeeded in these goals because knowledgeable boaters understand that boats with lots of ABYC violations are often not as safe as boats that conform to the standards.


As a result of ABYC, the boat building industry continues to be largely unregulated. This is also one reason why unscrupulous boat builders with seductive marketing have gotten away with their shenanigans, but that may be changing now in the age of social media.


Cheers,
Pea

Donsan said:

It is rare for almost everyone to agree on TF but in this thread, all seem to agree to get the boat surveyed.

Click to expand...

Ohhhhh NO!! Say it ain't true. PLEASE say it ain't true.....


One other thing, there has not been anyone here on TF that isn't willing to help you either by offering advice, going out of their way to assist you or to just bring you AA (Alaskan Amber)

I'll be the outlier, ASD. My instinct would be to survey the heck out of it, including a seriously objective sea trial(s).

But, having never taken delivery of a new boat beyond a 12' inflatable and therefore unqualified, my TF input for the record is "No Opinion".

PKPet said:

I am also talking to Trevor at North Pacific. We’ve discussed creating an asymmetrical Sedan 44 with a molded stairway to the bridge for safety and ease of ascent. I have a center console for fishing but I would like to consolidate function in one boat. Trevor has been very accommodating. A lot of factors to consider.

Click to expand...

May be you could have a look at Selene yachts, my new 78 fishing explorer has been designed specifically for fishing based on a 66 model (72 ft). Howard Chen is always happy to customize his moulds to accommodate special request.

Thanks for everyone's responses.

PKPet said:

Before accepting delivery of new construction, would it be good practice to have a surveyor inspect the boat before
the final check is written?

Click to expand...

In a word, absolutely. Here's an excerpt from an article I just wrote, yet to be published, on the subject of selecting and working with a surveyor.

When and Why do you Need a Surveyor?

While the most common reason for calling a surveyor is to perform a pre-purchase survey, your primary concern when choosing and using a surveyor should be for the safety of your vessel and crew. While your insurer or lending institution almost certainly require you to carry out a pre-purchase survey, it’s important to bear in mind that the most important reason for performing this vital task is to ensure the vessel is seaworthy, reliable and safe, and to identify as many flaws, obvious and incipient, as possible.
Your secondary concern should be financial in nature. While you will, no doubt, want the sale to go off without a hitch, I’ve had many clients say, “I hope the surveyor doesn’t find anything wrong”. I would argue that you should be thinking, “I hope the surveyor finds everything that could possibly be wrong with this boat”. If there’s anything to be found, this is the time to find it, before the deal is inked. Once you sign on the dotted line, you’ve forfeited all of your bargaining power in the sales transaction process.

Other reasons for conducting a survey include those that are carried out for the benefit of an insurer, after you already own the vessel, or for damage assessment/repair in the event of a loss (both of these surveys are typically paid for by the insurer, while the expense of a pre-purchase survey, and all associated expenses, is borne entirely by the buyer). Insurance companies may require that your vessel be surveyed periodically, so they may be assured that it continues to be a good risk. Damage assessment or repair surveys will be performed by a surveyor, at the behest of your insurer, to determine the extent of the damage, the necessary repairs and their cost and/or to oversee the repair process, ensuring that the work is being performed properly and within the bounds of the repair contract or quotation. For the purposes of this article, I’ll concentrate on the former, pre-purchase surveys.

It’s important to note that virtually every vessel will benefit from a pre-purchase survey, including vessels not requiring a loan or those that will not be insured, along with new vessels. The notion of surveying a new vessel comes as a surprise to many boat buyers (and some sellers), particularly when it’s not required by many insurers and lending institutions. As a buyer’s consultant, I can attest to the need for pre-purchase surveys on all vessels, both used and new. Boat builders and dealers, even reputable ones, make mistakes, and the pre-purchase survey is the time and place to find them, not after you’ve taken delivery. Builders and dealers have a natural motivation to correct problems before a sale is finalized, they, like all good businessmen and women, want to close the deal so they can get paid. Reputable builders and dealers will, of course honor warranties, however, the profit, and hence expediency, incentive is diminished after payment has exchanged hands.

All this assumes the surveyor is experienced, knowledgeable and competent. I've encountered surveyors who view surveys of new vessels a perfunctory or unnecessary. I routinely inspect new vessels and always generate long lists of observations, here's an example https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/New_Vessel_Sample_Inspection_rev1.pdf

Additionally, if the builder claims NMMA/ABYC compliance, more on that here https://issuu.com/spinsheetpublishingcompany/docs/nov_pt_2016/50 , then the vessel should be evaluated with that in mind. Again if the builder/dealer says it meets this standard, any violation must be corrected, there should be no debate. I'd ask the question before you tell them you intend to have it surveyed.

I would certainly have a new build surveyed...a set of eyes thats not emotionally or financially involved is always welcome...Builder wants final payment, you want your new boat...

"ABYC standards are voluntary for a reason. ABYC was formed back in the 1950's with two primary goals. The first goal was to improve safety for the boating public. The second goal of the larger boat manufacturers was to keep gov't regulations out of the boat building industry by making the industry self-policing. ABYC has largely succeeded in these goals because knowledgeable boaters understand that boats with lots of ABYC violations are often not as safe as boats that conform to the standards."

May I ask where you heard goal #2?

From an article about ABYC...

"ABYC was formed during the recreational boating
industry’s exponential growth of the 1950s.
Fiberglass was a revolutionary product in this day;
most boats were still built using timber, caulk and
enamel paint. In 1950, members of the Motorboat
and Yacht Advisory Panel of the U.S. Coast Guard’s
Merchant Marine Council were tasked with creating
an organization that would provide boatbuilders,
equipment manufacturers and repair yards with
critical safety related information. With this mandate,
the American Boat and Yacht Council was born,
convening its first meeting at New York City’s
Lexington Hotel in April 1954."

Full article can be read here http://stevedmarineconsulting.com/w...cht-Council-A-look-into-this-organization.pdf

I'm not saying that ABYC hasn't had that effect, I simply don't believe that was the goal back in the 1950s, when government oversight was far less pervasive than it is today.

I might argue against the point that they have largely succeeded, I believe too few boat buyers/owners understand or appreciate the value of ABYC compliance, but that's not their fault. Boat builder and the marine industry awareness of ABYC compliance has increased exponentially in the past two decades. ABYC has done a good job of getting the word out to the industry, while there's room for improvement in their efforts to penetrate the boat buying and owning public.

I used to manage the Zimmerman yard, I agree, we built some beautiful boats. They have not built a new boat since 2011. Steve Zimmerman used to joke that he made more money brokering a used boat he built than he did when building it to begin with. In other words, brokerage and service are more profitable, and boat building was a way to keep the crew busy during the slower summer months. These days few good boat yards have those slow periods.

Survey on new purchase

Absolutely have a professional survey at delivery and a substantial hold back until you have personally sea trialed the boat for 2-3 months. It is amazing how many system issues you can have on a new boat. Don’t put yourself in the position of chasing suppliers for repairs.

Mike
Brigadoon
Nordic Tug34