Transient Vessel not registered in any state/USCG Documented

Rufus said:

Speaking of confusion, this quote from post #55 says you didn't pay Massachusetts tax on your Nordhavn....

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That's right, because none was owed. Mass registration or not doesn't change their tax rules, what triggers taxes, and what exemptions might exist. It's no different from someone bringing a boat into FL after they have owned it for a while, register, and have a tax bill of $0. Or registering in a state with no sales/use tax. In Mass, registration or not, had I kept my boat and at some point brought it into Mass, I might have then owed tax (depends on a bunch of details), and would have paid it, just like I did on other boats that I bought and brought into MA. Those are the MA laws, and I'm sorry if they displease you. But I'd think you'd be much more upset with all the people who live in states where there is no tax at all on boats, or where the tax is capped at a minuscule number for expensive boats. They are parading through your state, using your resources, carry a registration certificate, and never have and never will pay tax on their boat.


I think your real gripe here is with the lack of uniformity in laws from state to state.

Seevee said:

This thread is getting confusing... but interesting....

I have no clue if Kerry way avoiding taxes or doing tax evasion..... One is legal and one not. Doesn't make any difference if he paid the tax to help with his image. If he broke the law then he should be punished, and if he didn't, he should not, period.

I think we can all agree that a prudent person would plan to minimize his tax burden within the law. And that's not only their right, it's a smart thing to do.

There's been a number of post about "fair share" and that's totally impossible to determine and totally inappropriate to chastise one because they didn't pay their fair share when we just don't know what it is. And if a person is in a lower tax bracket does that mean they didn't pay their fair share?

And if you want to write a check to your state to support whatever, that's fine for you. However, no reason someone else has to do the same or is a lesser person for NOT writing the check.

I could strongly argue that the majority of tax dollars we pay are wasted because politicians just don't know how to handle money. So, I'd support the guy that can figure out how to legally NOT pay taxes. And I could argue to support grass root operations that help support the local things that you like... NOT the government.

And if a state INVITES you to their state, I see NO reason that you can't go their and enjoy the benefits without feeling obligated to pay an additional tax OR pay some registration tax in ANY state if it is not required.

Click to expand...

twistedtree said:

That's right, because none was owed. Mass registration or not doesn't change their tax rules, what triggers taxes, and what exemptions might exist. It's no different from someone bringing a boat into FL after they have owned it for a while, register, and have a tax bill of $0. Or registering in a state with no sales/use tax. In Mass, registration or not, had I kept my boat and at some point brought it into Mass, I might have then owed tax (depends on a bunch of details), and would have paid it, just like I did on other boats that I bought and brought into MA. Those are the MA laws, and I'm sorry if they displease you. But I'd think you'd be much more upset with all the people who live in states where there is no tax at all on boats, or where the tax is capped at a minuscule number for expensive boats. They are parading through your state, using your resources, carry a registration certificate, and never have and never will pay tax on their boat.


I think your real gripe here is with the lack of uniformity in laws from state to state.

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The solution to dealing with unscrupulous people who carefully calculate ways to take advantage of fellow boaters is to close the loop holes. But what is distasteful and disheartening is the people who carefully calculate these running tax dodges, then blame it on the system, brag about being prudent/smart, and explain to others how it's done. You narrowly escaped the same fate as Kerry by moving your boat out of the country when Washington was on your tail. A fine example of tax dodging at its extreme, but for many of us, it's not something to be proud of. You bet I'm annoyed with the disparity between states. This thread is being forwarded to the tax people and the boat registration areas of all of them. It's the best description of the problem I've ever read. Thanks for your contributions.

Rufus said:

The solution to dealing with unscrupulous people who carefully calculate ways to take advantage of fellow boaters is to close the loop holes. But what is distasteful and disheartening is the people who carefully calculate these running tax dodges, then blame it on the system, brag about being prudent/smart, and explain to others how it's done. You narrowly escaped the same fate as Kerry by moving your boat out of the country when Washington was on your tail. A fine example of tax dodging at its extreme, but for many of us, it's not something to be proud of. You bet I'm annoyed with the disparity between states. This thread is being forwarded to the tax people and the boat registration areas of all of them. It's the best description of the problem I've ever read. Thanks for your contributions.

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Wow, that last line is a winner.. might as well said " neener neener.. I'll just show you.. I'm going to tell".



Have you ever walked faster to keep from putting more money in the meter before the time ran out? , ever purchased something that the tax deduction was going to run out the next tax year?



As long as the letter of the law is followed anyone here that has done so is TOTALLY within their rights as a US citizen.



There have been thousands of boat sales handled offshore to avoid sales tax that are perfectly legal, I have done it on a boat we took around the Pacific that spent a very short time in the US prior to departure.. why should I have paid tax on a boat not in the US when it was not in the us?


No one is " taking advantage of fellow boaters " by following the law.



If they leave the boat in a place where registration or tax is due past the allowed time then tax is due.



If they skate then try to get out of the fees then they deserve criticism.


You also need to know Washington does not tax on the sales price, they use a value derived from sources such as Kelly and NADA.. and often we pay more because they do not use the sales cost, I have had that argument many times when registering vehicles and boats. The state gets away with it as it is a "use" vs sales tax.. total bullshit.



I believe most here take advantage of what the law allows regarding taxes in most cases.


HOLLYWOOD

Wow this thread kinda went down hill in a hurry, well 124 responses....

Some of us are looking into correcting the disparities and inconsistencies between states.

Rufus said:

Some of us are looking into correcting the disparities and inconsistencies between states.

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Look at Virginia then and the disparities between counties.

Rufus said:

Some of us are looking into correcting the disparities and inconsistencies between states.

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Could be solved by a national tax on boats.

Rufus said:

The solution to dealing with unscrupulous people who carefully calculate ways to take advantage of fellow boaters is to close the loop holes. But what is distasteful and disheartening is the people who carefully calculate these running tax dodges, then blame it on the system, brag about being prudent/smart, and explain to others how it's done. You narrowly escaped the same fate as Kerry by moving your boat out of the country when Washington was on your tail. A fine example of tax dodging at its extreme, but for many of us, it's not something to be proud of. You bet I'm annoyed with the disparity between states. This thread is being forwarded to the tax people and the boat registration areas of all of them. It's the best description of the problem I've ever read. Thanks for your contributions.

Click to expand...

Rufus, are you suggesting that TT is one of the "unscrupulous people who carefully calculate ways to take advantage of fellow boaters is to close the loop holes"? Do you claim deductions or write-offs on your income taxes as allowed by law? Is that dodging taxes?

This is a serious question and one I sincerely hope you will answer honestly.

Rufus said:

Some of us are looking into correcting the disparities and inconsistencies between states.

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There have been disparities and inconsistencies between the states since 1776! It's part of what makes this a great country and is protected in our US Constitution. We call it States' Rights. What do you wish for, a unified taxation and registration plan at the Federal level, usurping the states' rights to legislate and tax?

Please tell us more of your plan...

DDW said:

The Washington regulations summarized (not quoted!) above are a good example. One agency in WA interprets it as meaning you need a permit on the 60th day after you first enter the state. However that is not what the statute actually says, and is in fact considerably more ambiguous.

"Paying your share" is a favorite term of some. What is "my share"? If I am in WA 60 days out of 365, should I pay the same as someone there 365? If I visit 10 states in one year is my share 10x that of someone staying in one state? If I store my boat in a dry storage yard for a year in WA, am I using any of the boating infrastructure of the state?

"Fair" itself is an interesting term in taxation. Everyone has a different opinion on what it means. "Legal" is a lot better defined. If I need to give WA 10% of the boat's value to stay 61 days to be "fair", then surely "fair" would have someone there all year giving 60% of the value, as they are there 6 times as long. "Fair" can be a very slippery slope.

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If you are a 1%er, your 'fair share' might be as much as 90% of your income!

Rufus said:

The solution to dealing with unscrupulous people who carefully calculate ways to take advantage of fellow boaters is to close the loop holes. But what is distasteful and disheartening is the people who carefully calculate these running tax dodges, then blame it on the system, brag about being prudent/smart, and explain to others how it's done. You narrowly escaped the same fate as Kerry by moving your boat out of the country when Washington was on your tail. A fine example of tax dodging at its extreme, but for many of us, it's not something to be proud of. You bet I'm annoyed with the disparity between states. This thread is being forwarded to the tax people and the boat registration areas of all of them. It's the best description of the problem I've ever read. Thanks for your contributions.

Click to expand...

Rufus,

I would hope that you might rethink your attitude. "Forward to the tax people"? If I were a moderator, I'd throw you off this forum permanent for just making a statement like that. Hope you're not serious...... that is just the same as "we should have the authorities, police, IRS and state tax people hang out in your house to be sure you are squeaky clean...... wouldn't be a problem because you have nothing to hide, right?

I could strongly argue that no one on this forum is taking advantage of fellow boaters except perhaps you. Your disparaging remarks are deplorable. Enough.

As many have said, it's prudent to do whatever you wish to avoid unnecessary tax bills within the law. No one has been promoting illegal activities. You're clearly missing the point. You can do whatever you please, but to chastise our fellow forum members and infer that they are cheating their fellow boaters because they do good financial planning is beneath the bottom.

Again, please rethink your attitude.

"we should have the authorities, police, IRS and state tax people hang out in your house to be sure you are squeaky clean....."

I believe the 4th prevents the quartering of troops in folks homes.

But with free speech under attack , who knows maybe the PC police will go after it too?

There are lots of things that have been said on TF where I or someone else has reported or at least wanted to to the authorities.


Nothing wrong with that...that's his business and if everyone here is legal as they say...then why is that a big deal?



It's his opinion....he has the right to try and change the law or authorities opinions.....


Accusing tax fraud is probably a bit shaky based on most short, less than well documented postings...so that would be a stretch...but overall I tend to agree that the whole sales and use tax laws in many states is confusing.


Tax lawyers and CPAs in general really aren't as well versed as they should bemon this issue...maybe because the interpretations of those laws by tax courts and government tax employees change or misinterpret them all the time keeping it somewhat as a moving target.


I get that different states get their tax revenues in wildly different ways and people like me move partially to save assets, so I don't have a problem with the concept....to me... there is some "language" in all this that I feel is misinterpreted and just because people haven't been challenged on it ....is far from making it the truth.

psneeld said:

There are lots of things that have been said on TF where I or someone else has reported or at least wanted to to the authorities.


Nothing wrong with that...that's his business and if everyone here is legal as they say...then why is that a big deal?



It's his opinion....he has the right to try and change the law or authorities opinions.....


Accusing tax fraud is probably a bit shaky based on most short, less than well documented postings...so that would be a stretch...but overall I tend to agree that the whole sales and use tax laws in many states is confusing.


Tax lawyers and CPAs in general really aren't as well versed as they should bemon this issue...maybe because the interpretations of those laws by tax courts and government tax employees change or misinterpret them all the time keeping it somewhat as a moving target.


I get that different states get their tax revenues in wildly different ways and people like me move partially to save assets, so I don't have a problem with the concept....to me... there is some "language" in all this that I feel is misinterpreted and just because people haven't been challenged on it ....is far from making it the truth.

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Paul,

I respectfully agree with most of what you say. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, nor is there anything wrong with lobbying for better laws. And nothing wrong with disagreeing with another. Nor is there anything wrong with trying to point out why the other viewpoint isn't the best, respectfully.

But I could strongly argue that there's something seriously wrong with one accusing of another as being a cheat, unethical and taking advantage of other boaters. And on top of that, threatens to go to the authorities and report them. Now, that's bordering on illegal, besides being unethical and just a lousy person.

That would be like: I see you walking your grand daughter down the street and into your home. So I call the authorities and tell them there might be a pedifile or child abuse going on there. My reasoning might be that I say you discipline your kids at one time.

We enjoy the rights that our forefathers fought for and one of those is the right to quite enjoyment and free from unreasonable search and seizure. There's nothing gained by sending out a witch hunt to check on someone without some reasonable proof.

=====

This is an interesting thread, hopefully sharing experiences with fellow boaters in dealing with the many different rules and regulations of our states. It's also an opportunity to share strategies for minimizing expenses and taxes. Nothing wrong with that, and that's how prudent people and businesses operate. So far, I've seen nothing to indicate that anyone on this thread was doing something illegal or immoral or unethical. Yet, there has been accusations, and all unfair.

Rufus
I suggest you move your vessel to a State or country that encourage US boaters to come their way to avoid taxes. This "stealing," for things beyond boating, of citizens earnings and properties is perfectly legal and designed to move high earners from locales that have egregious taxes of all sorts to those locales that have a user friendly tax bite.

You might care to do some reading as to how taxes In general are (mis)managed on county, state and country basis. FYI I paid no sales tax on my boat when purchased new, I pay no vessel use taxes of any sort on an annual basis, I moved to a State that has about 1/2 the tax on income as the previous and 1/3 the house property tax as compared to other municipalities in the same State.

To add insult to injury I have relatives who moved from MI to another State to reduce property and income taxes by a very large amount. Is MI gaining or losing high income households? There is a clue here as to the root of taxation unhappiness.

From The WSJ,


Shortly after New Jersey Gov.
Phil Murphy proposed steep tax
increases last year, his Texas
counterpart, Greg Abbott, wrote
an op-ed in New Jersey’s biggest
newspaper inviting residents to
consider moving to the low-tax
Lone Star State. Mr. Murphy
countered with a piece in the
Dallas Morning News touting the
new investments his
government planned as a reason
for Texans to come north. New
York Gov. Andrew Cuomo
recently attempted to stir up a similar feud, complaining to President Trump that low-tax
Florida is “stealing” his state’s population.
These face-offs between states are part of a larger national debate that has intensified this year
as new Democratic governors in California, Connecticut, Illinois and New Jersey push to raise
taxes even higher. They say higher taxes are necessary to pay for better services. But it’s far
from clear that the already-high taxes in these Democratic strongholds have created better
government and happy residents. People in states with high taxes are more likely to say they
are eager to move elsewhere, and polls show residents increasingly questioning whether they
are getting value for government “investment.”
Seven of the eight states with the highest percentages of people who want to move elsewhere
are solidly Democratic in party affiliation, according to Gallup polling. Most are


Sorry that's all one gets for free.

Since this thread has completely degenerated, I'll play. USA today just published a tax study showing the per capita income and total tax burden for each state. The numbers clearly show you are much better off in a high tax state. Ignoring Alaska which is a special case, South Dakota had the lowest tax burden at $2505. It had middling income at $48818. That results in $46,313 in your pocket at year's end. New Jersey was 3rd highest in taxes (behind New York and Connecticut) at $5594 per capita. But the income was 7th highest in the nation at $64,537. That leaves $58,943 in your pocket, 27% more than South Dakota.

The same is true more or less across all 50 states. In Florida you are left with $45,373, less than South Dakota. Alaska is the outlier, having high income and very low taxes - but that is completely oil dependent.

There is a reason the population of high salarly/high tax states is increasing, not decreasing.

Rufus said:

The solution to dealing with unscrupulous people who carefully calculate ways to take advantage of fellow boaters is to close the loop holes. But what is distasteful and disheartening is the people who carefully calculate these running tax dodges, then blame it on the system, brag about being prudent/smart, and explain to others how it's done. You narrowly escaped the same fate as Kerry by moving your boat out of the country when Washington was on your tail. A fine example of tax dodging at its extreme, but for many of us, it's not something to be proud of. You bet I'm annoyed with the disparity between states. This thread is being forwarded to the tax people and the boat registration areas of all of them. It's the best description of the problem I've ever read. Thanks for your contributions.

Click to expand...

Nobody here has stated that they have broken any state laws. A boat doesn't need to be registered unless The Boat resides in any one state longer than the laws for that state allow.

I live in NH. My boat lives in RI. My boat is registered in RI. That is in accordance with the laws of both states. I don't have my boat registered in CT or NY, but I do visit there. I don't visit for longer than is allowed by either of the states.

There would only be a crime if a person kept their boat in a specific state for longer than that state allows without registration. Nobody has indicated that that is what they are doing.

If you cite a specific example of where someone is evading taxes or breaking a state or federal law, please do so.

You appear to be threatening to 'tattle' on people when there has not been an offense committed.

I plead guilty to avoiding annual registration fees on my dinghy by not mounting a motor on it.

I know its way to late to get this thread back on topic, but maybe the OP could just register his boat in Oregon? There is no sales tax and from my quick look on the internet registration is just $4.50 per foot/year. The only thing that I am not sure, however, is if Oregon has any personal property taxes on watercraft?

If its just a matter of paying $4.50 per foot/year, seems like an easy way to deal with those authorities who insist (rightly or wrongly) that a boat travelling through their state be registered somewhere.

Jim

Having discussed with the OP, I feel certain he has his situation well under control. To all those finding the taxes and licensing of boats and states enforcing their laws to be overwhelming, the solution is simple, it's getting out of boating completely. Then you won't have that problem and can get angry over something else and ultimately give it up too.

From the Michigan web page

Part-time and non-residents

Michigan law allows owners of watercraft registered in another state use of Michigan waterways up to 60 days after which a Michigan registration is required. That means if a boat is stored or anchored in Michigan, and exclusively used on Michigan waterways over 60 days, the watercraft must be registered in Michigan. Stop.

I wonder if those who are transient traveling through Michigan from a state like Alaska that has no registration requirement are subject to citation for no registration while traveling transient through Michigan ? That wouldn't be very friendly or make any sense.

Imagine someone who can afford to make the trip and getting slammed by law enforcement in Michigan is that sensible law enforcement.

So 60 days for your lifetime? The boat's lifetime? Per year?

Most states with this sort of law reset the clock after you've been gone a year or so.

DDW said:

So 60 days for your lifetime? The boat's lifetime? Per year?

Most states with this sort of law reset the clock after you've been gone a year or so.

Click to expand...

I don't know if it resets. I just copied and pasted what the web page said.

DDW said:

Since this thread has completely degenerated, I'll play. USA today just published a tax study showing the per capita income and total tax burden for each state. The numbers clearly show you are much better off in a high tax state. Ignoring Alaska which is a special case, South Dakota had the lowest tax burden at $2505. It had middling income at $48818. That results in $46,313 in your pocket at year's end. New Jersey was 3rd highest in taxes (behind New York and Connecticut) at $5594 per capita. But the income was 7th highest in the nation at $64,537. That leaves $58,943 in your pocket, 27% more than South Dakota.

The same is true more or less across all 50 states. In Florida you are left with $45,373, less than South Dakota. Alaska is the outlier, having high income and very low taxes - but that is completely oil dependent.

There is a reason the population of high salarly/high tax states is increasing, not decreasing.

Click to expand...

Maybe so, but you have to take into consideration the cost of living. What is a gallon of gas, bread or milk etc. You may have 27% more in your pocket, but it is eaten away....

I wonder if this exempts out of state boat owners from the Michigan registration requirement. See below taken from Michigan state site.


NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994


324.80302 Exceptions; appropriate forms.
Sec. 80302.

(1) This part does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A boat from a jurisdiction other than this state temporarily using the waters of this state.

(b) A boat whose owner is the United States, a state, or political subdivision thereof.

(c) A ship's lifeboat.

(d) Watercraft less than 20 feet in length that do not have permanently affixed engines unless the owner, lessee, or operator voluntarily wishes to become subject to this part.

(e) Watercraft documented by an agency of the United States government.

(2) The various certificates, applications, and assignments necessary to provide certificates of title for watercraft shall be made upon appropriate forms approved by the secretary of state.

Nocanvas said:

I wonder if this exempts out of state boat owners from the Michigan registration requirement. See below taken from Michigan state site.


NATURAL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 451 of 1994


324.80302 Exceptions; appropriate forms.
Sec. 80302.

(1) This part does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A boat from a jurisdiction other than this state temporarily using the waters of this state.

(b) A boat whose owner is the United States, a state, or political subdivision thereof.

(c) A ship's lifeboat.

(d) Watercraft less than 20 feet in length that do not have permanently affixed engines unless the owner, lessee, or operator voluntarily wishes to become subject to this part.

(e) Watercraft documented by an agency of the United States government.

(2) The various certificates, applications, and assignments necessary to provide certificates of title for watercraft shall be made upon appropriate forms approved by the secretary of state.

Click to expand...

The key here is "temporarily using" and it would appear Michigan has defined that as 60 days.

DDW said:

So 60 days for your lifetime? The boat's lifetime? Per year?

Most states with this sort of law reset the clock after you've been gone a year or so.

Click to expand...

We asked the question of the DNR and got conflicting answers just as shown here, "Temporarily Using" vs "60 Days". We were told that the law read "temporarily using" and "60 days" was their interpretation of temporary. Ultimately we were in and out but never for close to 60 days so didn't really matter.

We first hit Michigan on July 14 and our final day in it was Sept 30 but in between we were in Ontario, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Illinois. We did make sure we had marina and fuel receipts to prove if needed.

Florida. Interesting

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Some states like Florida and Maryland can be very strict on enforcement and collecting taxes. When you loop back to Florida you will be good for 90 days and can then pick up a temporary (sojourners) permit for the period between 90 and 180 days if needed.

Go where you are treated best!

Having an IRA or 401k is tax avoidance.

Tax avoidance is legal. Evasion is illegal. It is not a scheme, scam, cheat on “your fair share”. The law determines your fair share, period!

I wish all tax strategies were available to me, but I am not jealous of those who can use them. I don’t feel it unfair to me if someone doesn’t have to pay as much tax as me. Thats on me for where I choose to live, how hard I decide to work, and how I structure my life. Individual choice.

I hope my path it to cruise fulltime, and I will utilize every LEGAL way to not pay tax I am not obligated to pay. That will leave me more money to spend in the local economy where it will have the most impact.

Loopholes, schmoopholes. It is just a line in the tax code. If you can use it, use it. (i.e. IRA is a loophole, many choose not to use it) If you can’t use that part of the tax code, then don’t cheat and use it anyway. I refuse to call it unfair because I can’t use that line to my benefit. Comparing one’s personal situation to others is a negative view on your life. The tax code, like life, is equal opportunity, unequal outcome. I am not bitter it is unequal outcome. I think that is a miserable way to live life.

BTW, what is the best anchor to use?

Go where you are treated best!