Remediating Stringers with High Moisture Content

Can anybody tell me how difficult, time-consuming, and expensive it might be to have a boat yard remediate stringers in a 38-foot trawler the have "high moisture content?"

The boat's price has been reduced, with the intent of selling her "as is," but I don't know whether this is potentially a $5K, $10K, $15K, or $20K problem to fix.

I don't know the extent of the problem, but will assume that major load-bearing stringers, that probably have solid wood or plywood cores, are involved, potentially under the single diesel engine as well as under the rest of the salon/cabin.

I do not have the knowledge, skills, or equipment to undertake a repair of this nature on my own and will have to hire/pay a boat yard to do it?

Any advice/insight or experience other TF members might be able to share would be greatly appreciated.

s/ Larry Buchman

Hi Larry. While I don't have direct experience with this type of issue I can relay what our surveyor told me when we bought our boat (no moisture or damage was in our boat's stringers and frames).

The first thing he checked during our survey was the stringers and frames. His theory was if they showed damage, moisture or any loss of integrity we should stop the survey and walk away from the purchase.

As you've stated, stringers can span the length of the boat and the rest of the boat is built on top of them. Engine(s), mechanicals, floors and decks, cabinets, bulkheads, etc all bear down on these structures. Access for replacement/repair could require substantial removal of machinery, joinery, bulkheads, etc.

I'd imagine repair/replacement would be very expensive.

Is this your surveyor? While I would be inclined to walk away, identifying whether it's the whole length of the stringers or just a section, would be my first question. The boatyard where I get my work done has replaced engine stringers. For an experienced wood and glass man, it's a very manageable job. Once you start talking about working under floors as opposed to the engine room, walk away.

Ted

Depends on how the boat was built.

If the stringers are part of a large assembly installed in the hull while building it might be that the "inside" is simply a form used for the build , with the GRP layup doing the work, no problem.

If the stringer is wood , with a hand layup on top to keep it from rotting , it would be a very major job to repair.

However if the engine is removed , you should be OK with cleaning and thickening the stringer with another dozen layers of GRP.

If the stringer is ONLY an engine bed its doable, if it is structure for the bottom, mostly on go fasts to lighten the hull, cross your fingers the material inside doesnt matter.

Is the NA findable?

You don’t have or give us enough info to really make an informed decision. You must know the extent of the wet areas, what is inside the stringers, where are the wet areas and what access do you have to the wet areas. Probably if you are going to hire the work done, then walk away as it will be an enormous bill and inevitably will be much more that any estimate. If you are going to do the work yourself then maybe, but you said you don’t want to do the work. In that case I would walk away.

Is this the trawler?
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/marine-trader-double-cabin-3183194/?refSource=standard listing


I would assume moisture in the stringers was discovered during a survey. (Not discovered by seller and the seller decided to sell boat) If so you might ask if the survey is available. While not a 100%, a copy of the survey addressing the moisture issue may give specific details regarding the high moisture reading locations.


The other thing to note is the discovery was in June 2018 - eight months ago. meaning the seller is having issues selling the trawler. The more information known the better to assess the cost to repair. And like many renovations of any thing (car, house or ??) the cost may increase after the area is opened up. And the seller may have bids or ?? which would all be good to understand. This just goes into the negotiation process. If it were me and the boat was a consideration, the offer would be contingent on a contractor or vendor inspection/quote. Whatever the quote became I would multiply by 150% or 200% and subtract that from a low fair market value.


As an example let's the fair market value is $50,000 and the estimate is $15,000. If nothing else is an issue (and that is almost impossible) $15k X 2 = $30 K $50K - $30K is $20,000 my offer.


Because the seller is selling in "AS IS" the buyer is taking all the risk. Because once the deal is done what ever issues found, the buyer owns them. Kind of like a fixer upper home.


The other way to look at it would be salvage value of the yacht. What would a salvage company pay for a trawler that was damaged? (That may be a little harder to grasp) What is the value of the engines if yanked and sold? Or other parts. Then offer to buy based on that price.


Again there is a sale in there somewhere. The seller doesn't want to deal with the problem so someone will have to deal with it. Not understanding the total cost of the problem is .... well ... the problem. The seller is unloading. For some one that can deal with it (even when a professional does the work) and understand more of the scope of the problem then a value can be established. This may not be the boat for you. However it has possibilities for the person that can take some risk, do some diligence and come up with a reasonable value as to the scope of work.

Contact dryboat and ask. My boathouse guys said that it appears to work but it’s expensive and time consuming. http://dryboat.com

I had a boat surveyed and it showed up with wet stringers. I suggested my price would be half of the listing price- while the guy jumped it it(on the first phone call mind you- thus seemed snakey) I walked as I didn’t want to deal with it. In this case- the owner, if interested should remediate it if he “believes in the boat”

What does your surveyor have to say about the condition of the stringers ?
How was moisture determined and where exactly was it found to be high ?
Were core samples taken ?
What did percussive sounding indicate ?
How thick is the glass over the the wood ?

I've a friend who has replaced rotten stringers in 2 TT's, it's a heck of a lot of work, usually made bigger as you find more problems as you go. IMO, it's a repair that doesn't make financial sense if you have to pay someone to do it. Also, IMO free is still to expensive for a boat with rotten stringers.

Is it moisture or actual rot. Tons of old screw holes in the stringers? I would want an old timer to poke around and not just with a moisture meter. If there is in fact rot, then that's a problem. The engine must be fastened to solid supports. No compromising on that requirement. But is it's just moisture you may be able to sister in new stingers and lots of wove to maintain strength. Engine would have to be removed of course. Requires some expertise but all doable. Just need a good idea of what needs to be done and you can then get quotes.

Rest of the boat looks good. Little dated but nothing set off any alarm bells. Owner is having trouble selling it, and probably wants to sell before next storage contract is due, so I suspect someone is going to end up with a great boat once the repairs are done.

To the many generous TF members who have responded to my inquiry, generously sharing their experience and insight: many, many thanks for your feedback, comments, and advice. Special thanks to those who actually took the time to find and look at the boat in question (a 1986 Marine Trader 38 DC trawler in Chattanooga, TN) on yachtworld. I have reached out to the listing agent/broker to ask for a copy of the marine survey that presumably was done in June 2018; I've also reached out to the (only) certified Marine Surveyor in the Chattanooga, TN area and to the (only) full service boat yard in the Chattanooga, TN area to see what my options might be to investigate the scope of the problem further and obtain estimates of repair/remediation cost. I've also reached out to dryboat.com to ask for more information about their process and how they determine whether or not it can be used effectively (thanks, Gmarr -- I had never heard of them before).
Peace and blessings to you all. s/ Larry Buchman (Boilermaker75)

Larry, please post back with what you find out. I'm curious about DryBoat. Couldn't really tell to much from their website - plus it was throwing a bunch of errors.

I would kind of like to know what you hear from the seller. That specific trawler I had looked at several times at Yachtworld. It is about the size and style I would like however I am not ready at this point. So it is interesting to get more data about it if you don't mind sharing.


I can think of several ways the sale could be negotiated. I am sure the broker would like to make a sale. And the seller likely wants to move it as well. However like life there are issues!

Boilermaker:
Stringers are the spines of a boat. The entire frame system connects and is built on them.
I don't think there is any half way job that will be worth doing and to replace them is to rebuild the entire hull structural system.
There are plenty of good boats for sale, find one and run from this project.

A "pre survey survey" just to look at the area in issue makes sense. The surveyor will likely look around for other obvious issues. No substitute for a full survey later,but a big help at this stage, whether to offer at all, and how much. Though if you can establish a price area first it makes paying for an initial survey more worthwhile.
I was going to do just that for some deck issues but didn`t get past the price issue with the seller.

Here is a pictorial of replacing engine bed stringers. It was DIY and successful.

http://savingtortuga.blogspot.com/2016/03/new-stringers-and-bilge-re-build.html?m=1

I posted this in August. DIY repair is possible esp. if you have good access. This is a link to what I posted last summer.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80296&d=1535633524

Good luck,

Rob

I would not want to price this out as a DIY project on the subject boat.

I would want a contractor price to be factored in he negotiation as to, do I entertain buying or walking. And getting the broker and seller involved with the entire process has a greater possibility of getting everyone on the same page. If both of those parties are actively involved there is a possibility of a sale. If either one are not engaged at least on some level then the word next comes to mind.

As a buyer you didn't create the problem. However as a buyer you could be the solution to the problem once there is an understanding of how great the problem may be.

Airstream35,

I had a long conversation yesterday with a representative from dryboat, who called me from Michigan, in response to my online/website inquiry. He said he has had numerous inquiries about the MT 38 DC in Chattanooga, from the owner(s), broker(s), and potential buyers. The problem is that nobody knows where the water intrusion into the stringers is coming from -- and he will not undertake the project of drying out and strengthening/reinforcing the stringers unless the source of the water intrusion has been identified and remediated; unfortunately that could require taking the boat apart, which could cost $40K or more.

Dryboat's process involves drying out the core of the stringer by forcing warm dry air throughout/down the inside of the stringer, then filling/sealing the inside core with epoxy. Their website does a piss poor job of explaining that, but a very good explanation can be found at https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/stringer-repairs-in-fiberglass-boats/

The dryboat representative told me they have never had a "call back" to repeat the process on a boat they treated in their 11 year history.

Unless I can figure out how to determine the source of the water intrusion into the stringers on the MT 38 DC in Chattanooga, there's no way to proceed, because the boat is uninsurable as is and dryboat won't take on the challenge of treating it.

Peace and blessings,

Larry Buchman
(Boilermaker75)

larry: IMO there is likely rot associated with the dampness.

Show me a 38' 30k trawler without moisture content and i'll eat my hat.

Forget about "drying" out the core @ this point it needs to be replaced.

cut top off stringers, remove rotted wood, dry area, lay in new wood and fiberglass over. In some cases i've see people use an electric chainsaw(carefully) to chop up the rotted wood. It "bounces" off the fiberglass inside without damaging it(couldn't believe it works). You can also use seacast(highly recommend) which is a mix and pour solution.



It's not rocket science but the tricky part is access. On a larger boat its actually easier than a smaller one. This is a sweat equity job because a yard will charge you big money to do it. It's not that its hard but time consuming and the yard is going to want $100 an hour. You could recore the stringers in a long weekend(working 10 hour days with a helper).

I'd also bet that while the boat contains rot that the hull is solid fiberglass, it has been used frequently in it's current condition and probably "safe" to use in anything but really rough seas.

Decks are pretty simple too. Set circular saw shallow to cut the top part of the "skin" chisel out rotted wood, replace wood re-fiberglass,sand and paint.


My insurance company never even inspected my boat for coverage(or asked for a survey) so I think you might want to look elsewhere for that. Passing on the boat because it's a project is one thing but you can insure it.

@ 30k you will not find a 34'+ boat without a significant "problem" and when looking at boat's of that vintage the problem is typically rot. In my searching for a boat I found that @ 45k you get into ready to run/sail boats that don't need much work but in many cases its the 30k boat with sweat equity.

I've done quite a bit of recoring on my 34' mainship and it's not a big deal really. Just take it on one section at a time.

Boilermaker75 said:

Airstream35,

I had a long conversation yesterday with a representative from dryboat, who called me from Michigan, in response to my online/website inquiry. He said he has had numerous inquiries about the MT 38 DC in Chattanooga, from the owner(s), broker(s), and potential buyers. The problem is that nobody knows where the water intrusion into the stringers is coming from --

Peace and blessings,

Larry Buchman
(Boilermaker75)

Click to expand...

IMHO Finding the source of the water intrusion would be the job of a willing seller or even the broker. Heck they don't have to fix it, they just have to find it!

An out of state buyer might be able fix the problem (if the numbers work out) but some one closest to the problem has to find the problem. No one is closer than the seller. And if the seller isn't willing to at least find the problem, again in my opinion, that boat's value is based on what a salvage company would pay.

That boat has been for sale for quite a while, at much higher prices than now. It's getting closer to a price that may work, especially if you can specifically identify the rotten areas in the stringers - hopefully engine room access. Otherwise a nice boat for someone.

Mrwesson said:

It's not rocket science but the tricky part is access. On a larger boat its actually easier than a smaller one. This is a sweat equity job because a yard will charge you big money to do it. It's not that its hard but time consuming and the yard is going to want $100 an hour. You could recore the stringers in a long weekend(working 10 hour days with a helper).

I'd also bet that while the boat contains rot that the hull is solid fiberglass, it has been used frequently in it's current condition and probably "safe" to use in anything but really rough seas.


@ 30k you will not find a 34'+ boat without a significant "problem" and when looking at boat's of that vintage the problem is typically rot. In my searching for a boat I found that @ 45k you get into ready to run/sail boats that don't need much work but in many cases its the 30k boat with sweat equity.

I've done quite a bit of recoring on my 34' mainship and it's not a big deal really. Just take it on one section at a time.

Click to expand...

If one only has $30,000 cash and is willing to take on that type of labor I suppose. However the risk is sinking all of one's $30K of cash and then running out of more resources in time and money, such that the Midas Touch becomes another relic that sits on the hard for ever.

I believe the goal of this buyer is to be on the water. (it would be mine) If the initial price and fix don't exceed reasonable market value the boat may be a viable choice. If not there are so many other choices out there in the $50K to $70K range, the question would be why if the problem can not be defined?

A typical buyer that is looking for trip on the water to build memories isn't a player for the Midas Touch.

The buyer of that boat will be one of several people -
1) Some one strapped for cash and has to have a boat. (The above scenario could apply) And that buyer knows not what they are jumping into. They learn on the fly if successful.
2) A salvage yard
3) A knowledgeable & skilled buyer. (Or at least one that has resources) This kind of buyer has to understand what is the problem and the fix for the problem. However a key party to that would be the seller and their roll in moving this boat. They are disclosing the boat has a problem. They just don't know the source of the problem. And if the problem exceeds market value well .... #1 & #2 apply.


And when an engine (or some other heavy assembly) shifts a couple of inches because a stringer collapsed, hmmmm

In the 2 boats that my friend has done the rot in the stringers also extended to rot and the bottom of the bulkheads at the front and rear of the engine space. I'd plan on finding the same. Stringer repair in the engine space is pretty straight forward, remove the engine and anything else in the way cut open the stringers and repair. It's harder fore and aft of the engine space where you have to remove furniture and finished flooring to access the stringers.
On repairing the stringers, on the first boat the stringers were removed duplicated and the new ones bonded in. It was a ridiculously complicated way to do it. On the current project, which is still underway, the plan, so far, is to cut the inside (closest to centerline) face off the existing stringers, hoe out all crap, replace it with layers of Coosa board set in epoxy then laminate a new inside face on.
IMO there are 2 realistic options. Buy the boat at a good price, use it like it is and sell it when you're done for whatever you can get or find another boat. Also IMO you will not find a TT without issues usually big and usually hidden. Also IMO don't expect a surveyor to find those issues. Also IMO you have to be realistic, you will not find a 34-38ft boat for $50k without significant issues of some sort.
I was cruising yachtworld the other day and saw a Pacific Trawler, likely a 37, for sale for not much more money than a TT and thought that might be an option. US built by people that actually cared about what they were doing.

Larry thanks for the link, great info.

I'm feeling fortunate our stringers aren't fully encapsulated in glass. Visible and dry wood. I already have my hands full with the deck.

This boat just did the loop. 5400 miles. The moisture was most likely there from years ago. There is a lot you can live with on a 33 year old boat and get away with. Heck it probably do the loop again before if needs major work. The thing is you need lots of boating experience, the ability to do and enjoy the many projects that WILL come up on a older boat. Windows, walls, fuel tanks, decks, electronics, windlass all need attention on older boats.

The OP wants to know how much to deduct from the asking price to have a yard do the work. Which stringers? Why is it wet? Minor work?, major work?, cheap yard?, expensive yard? No one knows so the question cannot be answered. There are no standard labor rates for boats.

I spent 60-70 hours on my stringers but project creep occurred so I really cannot tell you the exact number of hours. To get a yard to do the work I did, it would exceed the value of the boat. At yard rates, that is the case for most of the 30-40+ year old trawlers. Engine stringers, at least $15K. There are a lot of great strings about almost every repair trawlers need on this forum. There is a reason owners do a lot of this work.

I see you live in Chicago, so do I, If you want to get a feel for a Taiwanese trawler, send me a PM, I am 4 years into a refit and i am working on the boat in inside heated storage nearby. Cheers

My experience with Dryboat was posted years ago on this forum. They restored the stringers, restored the value of my Eprit, cost was minimal relative to conventional. AND salvaged my boating season
I agree it's not very descriptive on website but I imagine that because it is a patented system they are somewhat protective. Worked for me

Stringer problems

In theory, the stringer core is there only to provide a form for the fiberglass to be laid over and doesn't contribute to the strength of the stringers. Many builders will use a foam core, or use preformed stringer sections with no core at all. These systems usually have steel inserts for engine mounts etc.
So (in theory) the wood could be mush without compromising the boats structural integrity.



Of course that's only in theory, in practice builders will often design the laminates improperly and rely on the wood core as well as the fiberglass for strength and stiffness as well as mounting points for the engines...so the wood needs to be sound. We've fixed many wet stringer cores, it's all labor cost so the total depends on how extensive the problem is and how accessible. We'd only tackle this on a time & material basis...I doubt you'd find a yard willing to give you an all-in cost. But it's usually very doable.

In the end and stated above, identifying if the inner wood is actually structural or not and then proceed from the point of that understanding would be my strategy. See if you can find an expert with tribal knowledge of this stringer system. If the core is just for form then soft or rotten wood inside is just the price you pay for old and used and cheap vs new. If this one is wet inside, 90% of her sister ships are as well.

P.S. Mads on the Sail Life you tube channel is going through this very thing on a 38' warrier sail boat and he is having the stringer system evaluated by a marine design engineer to determine if repair is needed. It is a facinating channel and the answer to his situation is coming in one of the soon to be upcoming episodes. What he lears and how it was determined might be of interest.