Fixed Fire Extinguisher for Engine Room?

I had an old Kidde Marininer FyreWatch fire extinguisher in my engine room. The gauge was on zero, so I pulled it out. The local company couldn't recharge it (zero weight and no pressure). So... time to go shopping.

What is the current wisdom on the best fixed fire extinguisher to get?

Defender.com and West Marine both have the Fireboy. I'm guessing I need a 200ft^3 unit:

https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|135|2290089|2290091&id=2660219

Are there any other options?

Its not just an extinguisher , good protection is a system.

The bilge blower must be secured , the engine stopped etc.

FF,
Thanks for the response. The old extinguisher did have two wires that came off of it. I'm assuming the wires went up to a box at the helm that had an LED indicator (and maybe an alarm??). No idea if the wires would lead to circuitry that would shut down the engines (and generator?) and bilge blowers.

Does anyone know if it's safe to connect the two leads (without the extinguisher in place!) and see what happens?

I would HOPE that if the circuit shuts down the engines, it would do so in a safe and non-destructive way, and hopefully in a way that the engines would immediately be able to start back up once the short was cleared. But since it's a 20 year old boat with no documentation on that topic, I have no idea, and am just a little reluctant to say "hold my beer and let's see what happens when I do THIS..."

John

oak_box said:

What is the current wisdom on the best fixed fire extinguisher to get?

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This question got me to wonder how many TFers have an ER extinguisher?

Codger2 said:

This question got me to wonder how many TFers have an ER extinguisher?

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We have a halon system, grandfathered under the regs that gets checked every year.

Codger2 said:

This question got me to wonder how many TFers have an ER extinguisher?

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I have a Fireboy automatic system in the ER along with the shutdown controller to shut down both mains and the Gen.


Ken

We have a FireBoy auto system in the ER that is outdated - hoping it can be recharged. I'm still learning the systems on this boat - there is a display on the Elec panel for the FireBoy - not sure if there is an auto cut off for engines - more exploring to do

angus99 said:

We have a halon system, grandfathered under the regs that gets checked every year.

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Same here.

angus99 said:

We have a halon system, grandfathered under the regs that gets checked every year.

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I have a fireboy halon .how do you check yours ? I don't have a shutdown system.

This is part of a letter from Fireboy-Xintex regarding their Fireboy 1301 Halon systems. The letter is in the Forum’s Library in the Miscellaneous section. I’ve printed it out so I have a copy in case we’re ever asked. I get ours weighed at a UPS or FedX store.

“The only maintenance required on our units is periodic weighing (preferably every 6 months) on an accurate and certified scale. There is no expiration date on these units.”

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...7218-b1e1ac88907596bcfd21f1ba77db2199bd51f8f4

I got this when I click the link .

timb said:

I got this when I click the link .

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So did I!

Blue Sky, because she started life in charter service in Alaska, has four Fireboy automatic extinguishers:

2 in the engine room
1 in the lazarette (Genset & furnace)
1 under the forward stateroom (Not sure why. Perhaps due to windlass and thruster batteries?)

They have charged/discharged indicator lights at the helm but no S/D capabilities.

I have them and the handhelds inspected annually.

Sorry, try this link. If that doesn’t work, go to the Library and download it.

Trawler Forum - Library - Miscellaneous

My unit had a pressure gauge on it. The first thing to check was whether there was any pressure (there was not...) indicated on the gauge. I then unbolted the bracket holding the cylinder in place. That allowed me to move it around enough to be able to loosen and remove the screws holding each of the two wires (wrap them in electrical tape until replaced...). Once I pulled the unit out of the Engine Room, it was obvious that there wasn't anything inside.

Mine was also a Halon derivative of some sort. The only place I could find in town that would inspect / pressurize automatic systems - didn't handle the chemical my extinguisher used (FE241). So I get to buy a new extinguisher. As much as I hate shelling out another $600 or so, I wasn't overwhelmed with confidence about the place I had gone to... For something my life could potentially depend on, it seems prudent to get a good unit.

In addition to that, I've seen the FIREPORT advertised on Amazon.
This is a small plastic window you install into the engine room (in the upper deck?). In the event of fire - instead of opening the hatch and fanning the flames, you break out the small fire port, jam a hand held extinguisher nozzle in, and pull the trigger.

This seems like a good backup to the automatic system, and could potentially cover the forward part of the engine room that is the furthest from the installed system.

Does anyone have any of these?

With halon systems the only positive way to check them is remove them from the boat and weigh them. There will be a weight on the label and it should be within the listed weight range. With a gas boat halon will cause the engin to stop. With diesels, they will suck it in and keep running which is why you need the auto shutdown for when the halon dumps. If you have bilge blowers thay also need to be auto shutdown.

I'm a big fan of automatic ER extinguishers, but keep in mind that they are almost useless unless you also have an automatic shutdown for any engines (including generators) and exhaust fans. The problem is that the engine(s) and fans will do a splendid job of removing all the extinguishing agent, rendering it useless.


When the fire bottle triggers, it fills the space (ER) with one agent or another to smother the fire. That agent needs to stay in the space until the fire is out completely, and ideally cooled enough so it doesn't reignite.


Without a shutdown system, then engines and fans pull the agent out before it can do it's job, so you are firing blanks.


Lots of people rely on themselves to shut everything down, but I think it's very unlikely that you will figure out what's going on, have the presence of mind to know what needs to be shut down, shut everything down without making a mistake and missing something, and do so before the agent has been reduced to an ineffective level. I ran the numbers once and you only have seconds to shut things down


Now with an automated shutdown also comes potential problems, but to me at least it's well worth it to have an effective fire extinguishing system rather than a placebo.


But I will also offer up one caution. Some years ago, perhaps 6 or 8, Sea Fire released a new automatic shutdown control. It's a gray box, where the previous incarnation was a black box. The gray box device is an utter piece of shirt, with an incredibly high failure rate. Mine failed, and I know many people first hand who have had similar failures. And the killer is that when it fails, it completely disables the boat. When mine failed I was lucky to be at the dock because it incapacitated my main engine, wing engine, generator, and thrusters. Had I been maneuvering or trying to dock, I would have simply lost all control of the boat and drifted into whatever happened to be in the way.


For those interested, the newer gray-box SeaFire control unit has an internal power supply that powers all the control relays. The relays are always active to enable the engines and fans. This is an appropriate dead-man design. The problem is that the power supply is poorly designed, runs hot, and fails pretty reliably within a few years. Mine failed at about 4 years, and i know others who have had failures earlier.


This has been brought to SeaFire's attention and they have basically done nothing to address, so on our next boat I've switched to FireBoy who have a much better product anyway.


The gray box SeaFire comes in three configurations of 8, 6, and 4 relays. Anecdotally it seems that the 6 and 4 relay boxes are less prone to failure, and that makes sense considering that the power supply only has to power 4 or 6 relays rather than 8. But if you have an 8 relay box, your days are numbered.

Pyrogen aerosol systems are used on many commercial boats and rescue organizations. It's considered to be more efficient than Halon.

This happened this morning. The fire apparently started in the engine room (the vessel was tied up at the dock and the engine was not running) and preliminary reports suggest the cause was electrical in nature. No idea yet what if any fire extinguisher system was in place.
The live aboard owner was on board with her dog but they both got off safely. One adjacent vessel suffered paint/glass blistering and cracked windows.

A lot has to go just right with automatic or manual shutdown systems.


The better the trained crew, the less needs to be automatic.....especially with older boats retrofitted with less than perfect auto systems.


Also look up the actual recommended sizing, it is often way more than what many people calculate properly.

Larry M said:

Sorry, try this link. If that doesn’t work, go to the Library and download it.

Trawler Forum - Library - Miscellaneous

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Larry we have a new to us boat with a Fireboy. Thank you for making me aware of this letter. Lots to learn.

Stella has:

> 2 automatic Fireboy halon extinguishers, a 7# and a 20#. They are wired to a Fireboy interlock panel which shuts down 2 engines, 2 generators and 3 blowers if triggered.
> 1 stand alone automatic Fireboy halon, 3#, under the pilothouse console.
> 10 hand-held extinguishers, a variety of dry chemical, halon and CO2, 2# to 9#, mounted in cabins and on deck.

Professionally inspected/tested last year. Visual inspection once a quarter.

oak_box said:

FF,
Thanks for the response. The old extinguisher did have two wires that came off of it. I'm assuming the wires went up to a box at the helm that had an LED indicator (and maybe an alarm??). No idea if the wires would lead to circuitry that would shut down the engines (and generator?) and bilge blowers.

Does anyone know if it's safe to connect the two leads (without the extinguisher in place!) and see what happens?

I would HOPE that if the circuit shuts down the engines, it would do so in a safe and non-destructive way, and hopefully in a way that the engines would immediately be able to start back up once the short was cleared. But since it's a 20 year old boat with no documentation on that topic, I have no idea, and am just a little reluctant to say "hold my beer and let's see what happens when I do THIS..."

John

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Before you do anything you should educate yourself about this system. The type of system you have is called pre-engineered, there are several manufacturers, Fireboy, SeaFire and a handful of others. I must confess I don't ever recall encountering a Kidde system with an auto-shut down, they all appear to be engineered rather than pre-engineered, which means they are designed for larger vessels, mega-yachts, commercial applications. Therefore, my bet is your system does not have an auto-shutdown relay.

Every fixed bottle has a pressure switch with two wires, some go to an annunciator/light alone, others interface bottle discharge with engine, gen, ventilation shut down, via a relay box. For diesel powered vessels, the auto-shut down system is mandatory where ABYC (and in some cases insurer) compliance is the goal.

If the system has an auto-shut down relay, it will also have a small control panel that will include a toggle or buttons that say NORMAL and OVERRIDE or words to that effect. Hint for all users, if you have this system make certain the switch is not in the override position, if it is, it will not shut down automatically in the event of a discharge. Of the vessels I inspect, about 5% have switches set to OVERRIDE...because that's the only way the engines will run, because the bottle is empty or the relay is not working.

This video will give you a primer on the subject https://vimeo.com/160266778

Along with this article http://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FixedFireEx125_03.pdf

Agree with 90% of the above.
Other points of interest - not yet mentioned:
Cylinder needs a 10Yr Hydrostatic Test
In Phuket I can get the yearly re-certification done without taking out and weighing. The contractor uses an ultrasonic device to check the flooded volume (the level of liquid inside the cylinder). Used to have to take off and weigh but this is much easier!
At the 10 year cylinder re-cert the Halon was removed and refilled with HFC 227.
Quote:
FE-227™ (HFC-227) is a fire extinguishing replacement for Halon 1301 in total flooding applications. Known as heptafluoropropane or HFC-227ea, FE-227™ (HFC-227) is the most widely used clean agent replacement for Halon 1301 globally.
My biggest concern is that the engine room has large inlet vents and exhaust fans vents that the FiFi Agent can escape through. On a ship these vents are closed automatically or manually. The fans and engines stop automatically in the Fireboy system we have but I also have a plan to use wet cloths to block the vents and contain the agent - but this would take some time!

The hydrostatic test depends on the manufacturer and type of cylinder. This letter is from Fireboy-Xintex:

“December 14, 2016

To Whom It May Concern,

At your request, we are writing to inform all interested parties that Fireboy 1301 Halon fire extinguishing systems fall under the NFPA Standard 12A. This standard exempts our Halon units from any hydrostatic testing.

We used a DOT 39 class cylinder, which is a non-refillable cylinder and, therefore, cannot be emptied, tested or refilled.

The only maintenance required on our units is periodic weighing (preferably every 6 months) on an accurate and certified scale. There is no expiration date on these units.”

Good point on the hydrostatic testing. Requirements vary by jurisdiction, very few recreational small craft have their tanks hydro-tested. I'm not suggesting anyone not do it, just saying it isn't necessarily required (Sea-Fire outlines this in their owner's manuals).

An ultrasonic tester may be acceptable , however, it is necessary for the system cylinder to have an indication of the fill line during the manufacturing process, otherwise using ultrasonic test does not provide an acceptable method. This method is typically used in large fire suppression applications such as commercial or large super-yacht, where weighing is impractical.

HFC-227 (also known as FM200) and Halon are not interchangeable, in that you need more HFC/FM to cover the same volume as an equivalent quantity of Halon; i.e. pound for pound Halon is more effective (no service facility I've ever worked with will fill a tank that formerly held Halon with HFC or FM). Unless your existing bottle was over-sized, you may now be under protected. Not sure how you do the math unless you now know exactly how much HFC you have, as the coverage details on the bottle are for Halon, and thus not valid for HFC.

Halon systems are not banned per se by the Kyoto Protocol, there are many boats that are equipped with these, you simply can't make or sell new Halon systems. So, unless it had leaked and the weight/level was low, why was it removed? If the bottle had to be hydro-tested, the Halon can be recovered and replaced after the test. Halon is very valuable, it is routinely recycled from old systems and resold for aviation and other specialty application where where larger quantities of replacement gasses are impractical.

As an aside, over-sizing is not recommended because it can turn a non-lethal agent like FM 200 or HFC into a lethal agent. The concentration must be correct for the space volume to remain non-lethal.

CO2 and Halon are much preferred to dry chemical.

On larger aircraft dry chemical is never fitted in the cockpit as it can get into gauges, switches and CB , making them unreliable.

Twisted and Steve D provided a very accurate, comprehensive overview regarding fire protection systems on boats. Their posts should be permanently bookmarked by the Mods and referred to by others if the question comes up again.

While on the subject of fire extinguishers, I'd add this, other than run abouts, every vessel benefits from having at least one and ideally two hand held gaseous fire extinguishers, for use on small electrical fires. These should be located at the helm area and adjacent to engine room entrance (not in the engine room) or engine compartment. As one member noted, dry chemical can wreak havoc on electrical and electronic systems, it can be corrosive and have long-term effects on this gear. If you have a fire it surely beats the alternative, however, for small electrical fires it's far better to use an extinguishing agent that will not harm surrounding components.

This article covers the subject of portable fire extinguishers, and it includes an embedded video, shared with me by a client, of an engine room electrical fire starting and being extinguished by him using a portable dry chemical fire extinguisher. https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/portable-fire-extinguishers-not-all-are-created-equal/

twistedtree said:

But I will also offer up one caution. Some years ago, perhaps 6 or 8, Sea Fire released a new automatic shutdown control. It's a gray box, where the previous incarnation was a black box. The gray box device is an utter piece of shirt, with an incredibly high failure rate. Mine failed, and I know many people first hand who have had similar failures. And the killer is that when it fails, it completely disables the boat. When mine failed I was lucky to be at the dock because it incapacitated my main engine, wing engine, generator, and thrusters. Had I been maneuvering or trying to dock, I would have simply lost all control of the boat and drifted into whatever happened to be in the way.


For those interested, the newer gray-box SeaFire control unit has an internal power supply that powers all the control relays. The relays are always active to enable the engines and fans. This is an appropriate dead-man design. The problem is that the power supply is poorly designed, runs hot, and fails pretty reliably within a few years. Mine failed at about 4 years, and i know others who have had failures earlier.


This has been brought to SeaFire's attention and they have basically done nothing to address, so on our next boat I've switched to FireBoy who have a much better product anyway.


The gray box SeaFire comes in three configurations of 8, 6, and 4 relays. Anecdotally it seems that the 6 and 4 relay boxes are less prone to failure, and that makes sense considering that the power supply only has to power 4 or 6 relays rather than 8. But if you have an 8 relay box, your days are numbered.

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Peter:

Just had another one of these failures within the last month. I've encountered enough of these failures that I now include a notation in my vessel inspection reports recommending preemptive replacement/upgrade of otherwise functional legacy gray box systems. All users of these "gray box" systems would do well to investigate this issue. Sea Fire will replace a failed box for $100.