Marina dilemma

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A reminder too that most places that haul for hurricanes or have yard storage do not have anything that in even the loosest definition can be called "Hurricane Storage." There are exceptions as fine yards, properly elevated, protected from the strongest winds, and with well anchored tie downs. However, most either lack the elevation or are extremely exposed to water and/or wind, or have boats just sat on supports but without true anchoring or have so many boats packed together that one can cause damage to dozens. This is a reminder to all that just because your boat is on land, doesn't mean it's protected. Then sadly this case shows risk even in the clean up. This was a yard banking on no significant hurricane or flood. In the event of a hurricane, the only hope was less damage than otherwise would have occurred. In that case, the OP's boat was a huge winner. A couple of thousand dollars worth of damage instead of total loss. It's like a boat in a slip that only has rubrail damage. Sometimes we need to accept and be grateful for our good luck and in this case the OP's luck was overwhelmingly good.

It's the glass half full or half empty question but in this case the glass is 98% full and only 2% empty. We all are quick to see our loss or suffering. Well, if you boat, you're exposed to storms. It's like driving cars and the risks there. If I'm in a wreck and my car totaled and I'm ok, then that's not bad luck, but the luckiest day of my life. Perhaps even praise to the marina that the boat was 98% ok. I think of all the other boats that were destroyed during Florence and all the homes.

And to the OP and his job of restoring generators and, in turn, power, just think of all those you helped by doing your job after the storm. We saw so much suffering from Florence and we didn't even reach the worst areas. We saw those rejoice when they got power back after a week while others waited much longer. I know how much many benefited by the work you did, just as I saw rescuers working in moderately impacted areas while unable to even reach their own homes.
 
bayview said:
Does the sailboat that was being lifted have insurance and is it responsible for the damage?
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Highly unlikely it's responsible in the lifting (since it likely had nothing to do with contracting for it) while it would have been had it hit the other boat during the storm itself.
 
Move on. Yard said no. This situation is not a candidate for court. Case would be heard by a magistrate, not a judge. If there are no contracts, it would deteriorate into into a he said she said session. You blame yard, yard blames crane, crane blames sailboat.
 
BandB said:
A reminder too that most places that haul for hurricanes or have yard storage do not have anything that in even the loosest definition can be called "Hurricane Storage." There are exceptions as fine yards, properly elevated, protected from the strongest winds, and with well anchored tie downs. However, most either lack the elevation or are extremely exposed to water and/or wind, or have boats just sat on supports but without true anchoring or have so many boats packed together that one can cause damage to dozens. This is a reminder to all that just because your boat is on land, doesn't mean it's protected. Then sadly this case shows risk even in the clean up. This was a yard banking on no significant hurricane or flood. In the event of a hurricane, the only hope was less damage than otherwise would have occurred. In that case, the OP's boat was a huge winner. A couple of thousand dollars worth of damage instead of total loss. It's like a boat in a slip that only has rubrail damage. Sometimes we need to accept and be grateful for our good luck and in this case the OP's luck was overwhelmingly good.

It's the glass half full or half empty question but in this case the glass is 98% full and only 2% empty. We all are quick to see our loss or suffering. Well, if you boat, you're exposed to storms. It's like driving cars and the risks there. If I'm in a wreck and my car totaled and I'm ok, then that's not bad luck, but the luckiest day of my life. Perhaps even praise to the marina that the boat was 98% ok. I think of all the other boats that were destroyed during Florence and all the homes.

And to the OP and his job of restoring generators and, in turn, power, just think of all those you helped by doing your job after the storm. We saw so much suffering from Florence and we didn't even reach the worst areas. We saw those rejoice when they got power back after a week while others waited much longer. I know how much many benefited by the work you did, just as I saw rescuers working in moderately impacted areas while unable to even reach their own homes.
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I see your point & when we arrived at the boat just after the storm I was truly amazed we survived without damage. took many pictures because it was pretty much a miracle . I guess my problem is had the boat suffered damage during the storm it would be easy to accept . but there is really no excuse for failure to protect property during marina operations 'a simple blanket over the rub rail would have solved this problem . I spent many years moving diesels through boat interiors without damage & if there was anything damaged we fixed it.
 
Craig Schreck said:
but there is really no excuse for failure to protect property during marina operations
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I wasn't there to know what they faced or how much was going on. I'm sure there was a conflict between having adequate persons to supervise everything done vs. doing things as quickly as possible. I'm sure things were not managed up to their normal standards.
 
BandB said:
I wasn't there to know what they faced or how much was going on. I'm sure there was a conflict between having adequate persons to supervise everything done vs. doing things as quickly as possible. I'm sure things were not managed up to their normal standards.
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work of this nature can't be rushed without potential damage. this was not a life or death situation. it was a simple clean up operation. I feel a professional crew run properly would have minimized the property damage. I would have liked to be there to protect my interests but wasn't given the opportunity. I had to rely of the professionalism of others to protect my property. there are other yards I do business with that I trust to handle this professionally. starting with communication skills.
 
Craig Schreck said:
work of this nature can't be rushed without potential damage. this was not a life or death situation. it was a simple clean up operation. I feel a professional crew run properly would have minimized the property damage. I would have liked to be there to protect my interests but wasn't given the opportunity. I had to rely of the professionalism of others to protect my property. there are other yards I do business with that I trust to handle this professionally. starting with communication skills.
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They don't have experience with these things though or the type or size of crew.

Clearly they should have done things more professionally but that doesn't seem to be the kind of marina they are.
 
Last edited:
Perhaps look more to the crane company. In a number of states crane operations are subject to "strict liability".
 
IronZebra said:
Perhaps look more to the crane company. In a number of states crane operations are subject to "strict liability".
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another good point thanks. at this time I would like to thank all who provided input, I may be slow but I do learn. I think I'm more disappointed in the way this is being handled than the costs involved. I also appreciate no one stating the marina by name .
 
B & B got close to this. If they do a deal with you,and it gets known,it could open the floodgates to claims. Although yours is a distinguishable case of no storm but pure crane retrieval damage, unless they refuse all claims they could end up paying all claims. They can`t afford to do that, so they deny and avoid. Not pretty but there it is. Doesn`t sound like you were in the loop when they were arranging for owners to contribute to crane hire but if you were, it could mean a direct relationship with the crane operator, depending on the facts, which could help.
 
Because of your potential liability and because you said you liked the marina, and because the total cost spread out over the years you have enjoyed that marina is small. I will echo the suggestion that you eat it and forget it.
 
I am a litigation attorney in eastern NC and, in my opinion, the crane company is liable for improperly lifting the sailboat and for using inexperienced spotters. If the marina's employees were spotting the lift that hit your boat, the marina is also liable. Does this mean you should file a claim? Hardly. For the many good reasons listed in this thread, many of which you have mentioned, it is probably best to move on and put it behind you. This was a very bad storm, walk away grateful that you only had 2-4K in damage. This sucks, but it easily could have been much worse, and might be next hurricane season.
 
This sucks. You might consider that your relationship with the marina is already ruined by their unwillingness to make this right. However, if you want to try to keep your relationship with the marina why not just file against the crane company. However, if you have to hire an attorney this may just cost you time & money with only more frustration at the end of the day. If it was me I would consider this an opportunity to paint the boat a different color & and end up with a prettier boat as a result. Personally I'm a fan of black, dark blue or dark green but that's a whole different debate.
 
Thanks to the OP and everyone else for sharing their insights about this unfortunate experience. At least it will help to educate us for the future.

I also know I would be irritated about damage done from poor workmanship. And I know that 2 to 4K is a lot of money to me :) Would the hassle and irritation of getting the money balance out the irritation that it happened at all?
 
Craig: As a lawyer, I would recommend the legal route as a last resort! I find that face-to-face problem solving discussions are best. No chance to not take a call. I would try to suggest that their insurer, the crane's insurer, the yard and you have that face-to-face and see if some reasonable compromise can be reached. If they all see you are not trying to stick it to them, they might listen. If not, you still have the option to pursue legal recourse or "suck-it-up" and swallow the costs.
 
Cedar22 said:
Craig: As a lawyer, I would recommend the legal route as a last resort! I find that face-to-face problem solving discussions are best. No chance to not take a call. I would try to suggest that their insurer, the crane's insurer, the yard and you have that face-to-face and see if some reasonable compromise can be reached. If they all see you are not trying to stick it to them, they might listen. If not, you still have the option to pursue legal recourse or "suck-it-up" and swallow the costs.
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I would look at it as a $2000 lesson that might save me $200,000 some day. What lesson? 1-To have insurance. 2-To have a written agreement because that would outline responsibilities and liability. 3-The nature of a hurricane damage and clean up is a lot of damage occurs outside the direct damage and even during the course of the cleanup. A lot of people are doing work they're not insured and bonded for and not qualified to do. The number one place where people get hurt post-hurricane is unscrupulous roof repairers.
 
I would go face to face and discuss it with them. Recovering a marina from a storm is a horrendous PITA and the scratches on your hull are likely the least of their concerns.

If pushing the issue is creating hard feelings, be prepared to eat it and smile. Maybe they will discount some hill time rent. But since they are not answering the phones, just go there and meet face to face.

Hurricanes can destroy small mom and pop marinas financially, especially if casually operated. Small ones often can not make a living if all types of insurance are purchased.

For some scratches in a hull after Florence, count yourself lucky. And the legal route is a big time and money suck, not worth it for $2k worth of scratches.
 
Tingum said:
It's a hurricane! You were uninsured! Get over it!
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Not my first rodeo with hurricanes in 30 years & not the worst one yet... This marina is new to me, only owned the boat for a few months before Florence, This was bought salvage as a project boat very inexpensively with a budget of 25k to repair, I can do all of the work myself on all mechanical & electrical systems , this is not my first project boat , I have enjoyed doing this type of thing in the past. The hardest part is finding the time being employed in the marine trade fulltime to play. You would think being in the trade I'd be smart enough to avoid this type of project. Fact is I did for many years until now. I think it was the flair of the bow & her shear line that got me back into doing illogical stuff, I just couldn't walk away from this one. one of the few things I was counting on was the bottom & decks were solid, hull would buff out looking sharp & the engine would run. I achieved all this before the storm, all I had to do was paint the bottom & redo the stern to launch & run the boat home to finish the interior, this is where the time & money would be invested using outside labor. I think the main issue I have here is the simple fact that 'if' I didn't go look at my boat just after the storm I would have never known how the boat was damaged. If I went a week later I would have just assumed it was damaged from the storm not the crane during clean up. the marina had the time to contact all the other boat owners to arrange payment for the crane but failed to contact anyone else either before or after the crane work to inform owners what they were doing. I think the yard should have also informed boat owners that they intended to pack the yard with boats just up for the storm to allow others to launch & leave for better shelter. This marina doesn't communicate anything but pay your bill . I think it time to burn a bridge. thanks all for putting up with the rant. but I do feel better about it.
 
Craig Schreck said:
The marina storage is in inline in pricing in this area & yes I was slack on buying insurance, if there wasn't the storm all I had to do was paint the bottom & launch planned for in October including insurance overboard, got caught short no doubt about it. I was there the day the roads opened, called every day and left several messages over time. didn't want to be a total pest. went back to the boat shortly after the first visit to find the damages from the clean up operation. My job requires a lot of my time so I feel I did my part the best I could. We offer emergency storm services for generators, a lot of them owned by utility company's. the storm backed us up 45 days.
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From the Marina owner's point of view and likely any judge in Coastal NC dealing with claims, yours might appear trivial and petty (not to you of course, I realize), considering whole marinas and homes were destroyed.


If you counted that marina's damaged boats would yours be in the top 25% or the bottom 25% in damage received? The marina owner is looking at everyone all together most likely, and addressing a host of needs or claims.


I think your best bet is direct negotiation, and if cash could not be agreed, a future credit on a haul-out/cleaning/blocking and a handshake might be your best bet.


A judge and the opposing party would zero in (regardless of circumstances) that you had the responsibility to insure the boat, but chose to forego that. With the background that some people lost their entire homes and waited 9 months for rebuilding, your position may not be strong and your best outcome in court might be the dutch split.


Attorneys range from $250-$500 an hour, if that is the route you choose. I would not recommend it. The aggravation alone would be worth several psychotherapy sessions.


Good luck.
 
Through pages of excellent points, I'll toss out a couple more.

1. You've already given more time and energy to this than it deserves. You didn't take the time or make the effort to insure or to have a written agreement, nothing to avoid this situation. Yet, you'll spend days and hours and more on the after effects.

2. The boat was a salvage boat on which you're doing all the work yourself. You could have a hard time in that environment convincing someone that this little scrape was worth $2000 or $4000 or whatever. Suddenly you're claiming damage equal to 10% or 15% of the entire boat value. You're doing all the work itself, the most I would award you is for a few supplies. This doesn't merit a "repair to new condition". You say you can do all the work on the salvage boat yourself, well get to work doing this.

3. Now, your last post you said you think it's time to burn a bridge. With your response to this and your failure to take any responsibility yourself, I think they may very well not mind seeing you gone. How much did you pay anyway for months of storage on their land? I'm sorry, but the more you make out of this, the less sympathetic I become. I can just see the jury now with members on it who had their houses damaged significantly or perhaps the judge who had her two cars and boat destroyed and you with a photo where they can barely see the damage you're claiming. Do you even have a repair estimate or is it just your number?

4. Let it go and get on with life. You should be rejoicing with all the damage around you and you escaping until a tiny bit in the aftermath and so thankful that it cost you so little to not do anything to protect yourself.
 
BandB said:
Through pages of excellent points, I'll toss out a couple more.

1. You've already given more time and energy to this than it deserves. You didn't take the time or make the effort to insure or to have a written agreement, nothing to avoid this situation. Yet, you'll spend days and hours and more on the after effects.

2. The boat was a salvage boat on which you're doing all the work yourself. You could have a hard time in that environment convincing someone that this little scrape was worth $2000 or $4000 or whatever. Suddenly you're claiming damage equal to 10% or 15% of the entire boat value. You're doing all the work itself, the most I would award you is for a few supplies. This doesn't merit a "repair to new condition". You say you can do all the work on the salvage boat yourself, well get to work doing this.

3. Now, your last post you said you think it's time to burn a bridge. With your response to this and your failure to take any responsibility yourself, I think they may very well not mind seeing you gone. How much did you pay anyway for months of storage on their land? I'm sorry, but the more you make out of this, the less sympathetic I become. I can just see the jury now with members on it who had their houses damaged significantly or perhaps the judge who had her two cars and boat destroyed and you with a photo where they can barely see the damage you're claiming. Do you even have a repair estimate or is it just your number?

4. Let it go and get on with life. You should be rejoicing with all the damage around you and you escaping until a tiny bit in the aftermath and so thankful that it cost you so little to not do anything to protect yourself.
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:thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:
Well put B&B!
 
BandB said:
Through pages of excellent points, I'll toss out a couple more.

1. You've already given more time and energy to this than it deserves. You didn't take the time or make the effort to insure or to have a written agreement, nothing to avoid this situation. Yet, you'll spend days and hours and more on the after effects.

2. The boat was a salvage boat on which you're doing all the work yourself. You could have a hard time in that environment convincing someone that this little scrape was worth $2000 or $4000 or whatever. Suddenly you're claiming damage equal to 10% or 15% of the entire boat value. You're doing all the work itself, the most I would award you is for a few supplies. This doesn't merit a "repair to new condition". You say you can do all the work on the salvage boat yourself, well get to work doing this.

3. Now, your last post you said you think it's time to burn a bridge. With your response to this and your failure to take any responsibility yourself, I think they may very well not mind seeing you gone. How much did you pay anyway for months of storage on their land? I'm sorry, but the more you make out of this, the less sympathetic I become. I can just see the jury now with members on it who had their houses damaged significantly or perhaps the judge who had her two cars and boat destroyed and you with a photo where they can barely see the damage you're claiming. Do you even have a repair estimate or is it just your number?

4. Let it go and get on with life. You should be rejoicing with all the damage around you and you escaping until a tiny bit in the aftermath and so thankful that it cost you so little to not do anything to protect yourself.
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What garbage. He doesn't have a signed agreement or insurance so it's ok for professionals to damage his boat? And you don't know how much time he's spent trying to get compensated for the damage & it's none of your business anyway. And he never said he wanted it repaired to like new condition, just wants it back to the condition it was in. The fact that you have no empathy for the OP says more about you than him.
 
Carl Martin said:
What garbage. He doesn't have a signed agreement or insurance so it's ok for professionals to damage his boat? And you don't know how much time he's spent trying to get compensated for the damage & it's none of your business anyway. And he never said he wanted it repaired to like new condition, just wants it back to the condition it was in. The fact that you have no empathy for the OP says more about you than him.
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You're welcome to your opinion just as I am mine. However, it became my business the moment he started this thread asking for opinions which he has followed up with 17 more posts in the thread. Yes, my sympathy for him has waned greatly over the days of discussion and I'm willing to accept whatever that says about me. I went to SC after hurricane Florence and I shared my heart and soul (and money) with many who suffered the consequences. Some lost a lot and some very little. I recall one 80 year old woman and all she lost was the food in her refrigerator and freezer, but that was all she had and left her with no food and no money. She was driven to Walmart on a shopping trip by a young girl with us and replenished.

Note, I did change from empathy to sympathy simply because I can't empathize with him. I can't really experience his feelings because in his situation I wouldn't have the same feelings. I would have accepted what happened and moved on happy that was all that happened. We're all different and I recognize this apparently has caused him great anguish. Still, I've offered my advice as have others. He'll choose what to do and is free to ignore us all.

I do note also that your advice to him was to paint the boat a different color and end up with a prettier boat, preferably black, dark blue, or dark green.
 
This issue is related to what I do for a living (for a few more months!). Were I to place a boat on the hard, or have major work done by a marina (e.g., $20K etc), as part of the work order, the marina will (if you ask) give you a certificate of insurance from their carrier naming you as an "additional insured" on their Comprehensive General Liability policy (and it costs the Marina zero) for things they do wrong and which are covered by policy (e.g., ordinary negligence, but taking a sledge hammer to the hull is probably excluded from their insurance, but your ins. would cover it). So i this case you would get a document from Geico, State Farm, Pru, whatever company they have, and it would state dollar limits and your name would appear on the certificate as an "additional insured". If a loss occurs due to their fault, you can claim, subject to the Marina's deductibles just as if you were the policy holder. So if you get a certificate that shows the Marina has $1M CGL policy with a 10K deductible, and the Marina burns your boat to the ground while painting the bottom, you call "their Geico" and make a claim subject to the 10K deductible. If the Marina's limits are exceeded (e.g., if your vessel they burn happens to be a Nordhavn 63), your policy will pick up the difference, if you have one, until its limits are exhausted. Hope this helps.
 
Ask if rigger was certified. Riggers are trained and certified. Liability rests with both marina and contractor.
 
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