Oil question

well too late!! LOL

NCheaven said:

I have a 14 year old Volvo TAMD41P-A 6 cyl. 200 HP turbo diesel engine in my Camano. The manual recommends 15W-40 diesel engine oil. !

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Its gone 14 years on 15/40 dino, what makes you think it needs anything different?

catalinajack...
I guess we are in agreement on some but not all points then...

"Find me any manufacturer making diesel engines in the last 30 years or more that specs a straight grade oil if, in fact, it is a better choice."

I find it interesting that Cummins states they prefer / recommend multi-vis for general use but in their gennie applications make the follwong statements...

"NOTE: Multi-grade oils (such as SAE 15W-40) are recommended for year-round use in Cummins Onan liquid-cooled engines, or as a good all-season oil for air-cooled engines.
NOTE: SAE-30 is the preferred summer grade for optimum oil consumption control in Cummins Onan air-cooled engines."
and per the attached chart still show 30W for warm climate use.



"Agree 100%, well almost. Marine environment, by which I am assuming you mean ambient temperature, is not a relevant factor. Diesel engine should always reach its operating temp and stay there within an insignificant range. Therefore, one should use whatever viscosity oil the manufacturer recommends at operating temp."

Now I DO Disagree with your premise - any oil viscosity chart I have seen is based on environment / climate conditions experienced as higher vis oils are detrimental when starting in COLD Climates. All liquid cooled engines - whether gas or diesel - operate at roughly their designed temp and would only require the same vis oil in any conditions per your premise.
I would say that ALL engine mfgrs will make ol recommendations based on temp ranges that include cold(est) start temp & highest environmental temp expected - not normal engine operating temp
From the Cummins ref above...
"Oil Viscosities – Use the following chart to select correct viscosity grades for expected ambient temperature range".

For most auto / truck / RV use multi-vis are appropriate but for unique applications - marine warm season use straight wt oils are perfectly acceptable per several sources I have seen.

Some additive packages may have a time limit. However I would think that to be a very long time period.


Worse would be blow-by or soot and unburned fuel in the crankcase that can be an issue in the oil if left to sit for a long time. Can generate into solids that really need to be removed. (via an oil change)

The biggest issue over time may be moisture or condensation. It would be possible for an unused engine to develop condensation especially in a marine environment that has some temperature swings over a long period of time.

But just oil sitting in a crankcase, you should be good to go for a very long time. It is the other stuff that gets in the oil that is the issue with long storage times.

Bacchus said:

"NOTE: Multi-grade oils (such as SAE 15W-40) are recommended for year-round use in Cummins Onan liquid-cooled engines, or as a good all-season oil for air-cooled engines.
NOTE: SAE-30 is the preferred summer grade for optimum oil consumption control in Cummins Onan air-cooled engines."
and per the attached chart still show 30W for warm climate use.

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In the past (like 30 to 40 years ago) a single vis oil was much stronger than multi-vis oil. Because of the punishment that a marine engine produces in use, (usually runs at or near WOT a lot of the time or idle not much in between like auto applications) most marine engines had a single vis recommendation.


This may be why the gen manufacturer has that single weight oil recommendation.

I have been out of that side of engine engineering for a very long time and the oil produced now is nothing like the oil of the 1970s and 1980s. So multi-vis oils may have the strength (shear) that single weight oils used to. And the best recommendation would be to stick with the engine manufacturer's recommendation regarding oil viscosity.

When you look at oil viscosity charts for what oil vis oil to use keep in mind that your marine engine basically never experiences temps colder than 40 degrees f. So you don’t need a wide range of viscosity tollerance. Putting all those vis improvers in your oil actually lowers the ability of the oil to lubricate. That’s job#1.

I’m w Bob Smith on this one as I’ve always used Straight 30w oil in my engine. There just isn’t any need for muliti-vis oil in a marine engine’s enviroment. An exception would be an IO powered boat where the engine is exposed to outside air temps.

Of course you all know I would recommend Schaeffer's 700 CK-4

The Delo CK-4 or CJ-4 is great for your engine at 100hrs in any weight specified. 15-40 is quite universal, but some engines need straight 40 to protect the bottom end when operating COLD if you can believe it. The 15-40 still works even better for those too, but you need to warm up under no load conditions for a few minutes before powering up.

Any C rating on diesel oil goes back to cover all previous C ratings, so CK-4 is backward compatible to CJ-4, CI, CH and so on.

You're good to go.

The new deviant rating is the FA-4 10-30 spec. for a few 2017 and newer Detroit, Cummins Volvo models and possibly others. I do not know of any marine diesel engine calling for FA-4 yet. FA-4 is in trucking and is not compatible with any other oil type. Crossing this into a C oil spec engine is complete destruction.

Yes,
They do meet and exceed original requirements. The 5w however is of little real benefit in most marine environments where temps are very moderate, so a 15-40 is just fine too.

We use Rotella T5 semi synthetic 10W30 for 5 years now with oil analysis each change. My analysis numbers have been steadily improving on our 30+ YO Perkins. What more could you want?

NCheaven said:

I have a 14 year old Volvo TAMD41P-A 6 cyl. 200 HP turbo diesel engine in my Camano. The manual recommends 15W-40 diesel engine oil. The Synthetics I have seen on the market (Mobil 1, Shell's Rotella, etc.) for diesels seem to be mostly 5W-40. Are these lower cold pour synthetics compatible with older engines like mine? Does anyone know of authoritative articles on this subject?

It seems like using a synthetic with higher temperature tolerance, fewer contaminants than mineral oil, and better initial flow when starting up engines that experience longer time segments between use seem to make sense, while having the same high temperature viscosity as mineral oils. Seems like there should be some research literature out there, including recommendations from engine manufacturers. Goal, of course, is engine longevity, not searching for better mileage at the risk of higher engine wear. I welcome good research and recommendations from authoritative sources!

Thanks!

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My TAMD41s are from 1990. My boat came with 1980 TMD40s, that I might, now consider "old". I still consider the 1990 engines "new".

Age of your engines is irrelevant to the oil discussion, unless they are really old, so use of any oil that meets or exceed the original specs will be good.

Synthetic oil comes in a completely different base stock. In the early days synthetics would have undesirable effects on swelling and/or shrinking oil seals and engines would become leakers especially on main seals.

They put additives in the “oil” to make the syn oil shrink or swell to counteract the problem. One would think now and then they’d get a bit too much or too little additive in and leakage would occur. Never heard of that happening but even of it didn’t having unessessary additives in the syn oil wouldn’t be benefical. Adding any additive means there’s a lower percentage of oil ... not as much oil in the can as otherwise.

But some time ago I heard they had that seal problem totally controlled. My philosophy on the matter is unless one has a very high real need for synthetic oil ... why use it. I know of no problems with non-synthetic oil. So again why use syenthic?
I’m not against synthetic lube oil and use it all but one of my cars. But I belive there’s no need in the engine compartment temperature protected space where most of our trawler engines live. Essentially they are in a temperature controlled environment.

Right.
Lower aromatics caused old seals to shrink and crack.
No longer a real issue. Seal materials are better along with oils and additive packages.
Oil additive packages can be light or robust.
Nothing wrong with good paraffin base stocks. The additives are what make all the new specs happen in blends and full synthetics.
Full synthetics with additives are able to meet new engine requirements. Mineral/non-syn oils are on the way out.
Older engines are good to go either way, mainly due to lack of emmission control devices, relatively loose tolerances and shorter change intervals.
I run a 15-40 blend that is more than suitable for my Perkins, but not for a new Powerstroke or Duramax, or ISX. If the base stock is good, the right additive blend makes the oil much more durable than any in the past and preserves the emmission control equipment in new engines and cuts wear and oil oxidation to a greater degree in all engine types.
Heavy targeted addives and strong base oils -synthetic and mineral blends are the answer. Old non detergent oil is still much better than seawater , but I’ll opt to use the good stuff if I have a choice.

K S,
Whatever you think you need.
It’s your money.

Problem solved. In a WalMart for stuff and grub and looked at their oil display, and bigger than life was Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic 15W-40. I had searched Shell’s Rotella site several times and there was no mention of a 15W-40 full synthetic, or at Mobil, and others I searched. But Wal Mart has it, I bought it, and it’s going in my next oil change. Why that choice? Because at 100 hours a year, there is sludge looking back stuff in my oil right after changes. So, using full synthetic at every change will eventually get rid of all the built up sludge, leading to a longer life engine, and good performance. I’ve used the best oil on the market on all my cars, boats and my truck with 254,000 miles, with no engine repairs except bolt on stuff like water pumps...no internal engine problems. With a retention plan of 2030, my Camano will be 25 years old, and I hope to still be running the OEM Volvo TAMD41P-A turbo. With the T-6 full synthetic I can stick with the manual spec of 15W-40 and still have a full synthetic. My whole reason for starting this portion of the string on syn and vis was because my research hadn’t found a syn in The Volvo recommended 15W-40. Thanks captains for your many great suggestions. The last thing I expected was to find the syn just by walking into WalMart....

NCheaven,
Yup sometimes we just get lucky.
One of the good things about synthetic when purchased in moderate viscosity ranges is that it takes much less VI. At some point a synthetic would have no VI at all yet the “oil” would have a multi-vis rating because synthetic oil is more stable as temperature changes. I don’t know what a synthetic w/o VI would be rated at ... 25-50 or just 40-50??? But I’m sure a 5w50 (or is it w5-50?) would have a lot of VI. Not so much 15w40. Good

I prefer to change more often and use straight 30w Chevron Dello in my boat engine. I use 5w50 and 5w30 in my newer cars but my old 87 Nissan has never seen synthetic oil. She’s got 296,000 miles on and runs great. A little low on compression and power though. Having a little trouble finding parts now too.

NCheaven said:

In a WalMart for stuff and grub and looked at their oil display, and bigger than life was Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic 15W-40.

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I was just reading about this oil on another forum earlier today. It will be a really popular product to a lot of folks...

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5020719/1

Nomad Willy said:

At some point a synthetic would have no VI at all yet the “oil” would have a multi-vis rating because synthetic oil is more stable as temperature changes.

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I have read some petroleum engineers say the very best 10w-30s can be monograde in reality; just very good synthetic 30 weight, not VIIs to dilute and to shear and foul.

catalinajack said:

It is well to remember that Ford Lehman engines were developed well before the widespread use of multi-grade oils. Using SAE 30 grade oil in a Lehman is fine. But, using it ignores the benefits of multi-grade oil, that is, far better cold start-up lubrication with equally good operating temp lube ability.

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I think this is key.
Also, 50 years ago, the wear at start up was not as well understood. That's why ALL engine manufacturers now recommend multi weight oils.
Yes, the additives are better also.

But as someone else said, I think it makes no difference in the long run. Maybe if you put 10,000 hours a year for 20 years, it'll make a difference, but not much less.

Wxx3 said:

I think this is key.
Also, 50 years ago, the wear at start up was not as well understood. That's why ALL engine manufacturers now recommend multi weight oils.
Yes, the additives are better also.

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This only matters for COLD starts. And it doesn't mean the engine has sat overnight. It means COLD ambient temps. For example, 0w-30 and 10w-30 have no appreciable flow differences until well below freezing. If your engine room is routinely at 10F or 15F when you crank your engines, then you'll see some benefit.

If not, you are loading your oil with non-lubricating VIIs (and this can be a significant % by volume of the oil) which shear down over time for absolutely no gain and at the expense of significant performance loss.

I have a graph from an SAE paper illustrating this, but no web site to host it to link it here; I can't find a way to upload it.

Most engine manufacturers fill with a multigrade as a CYA approach to then not worrying what climate the car is sold in and operated. It's not an inherent virtue of a specific multigrade in general; it's just a one-size fits-all approach that is easier. Details in manuals still will reference temperature/climate appropriate oil selections, just like the old days.

Some oil field speculation and musing

Abundant natural gas may mean more synthetic content in lube oil due to market pressures. Backward from what might have been expected in recently past years. Good enough is probably better than ever.

Catastrophic engine failure is not always due to lubrication failure. Oil obsession is no guarantee of extended engine life. Perfect can be the enemy of good.


Buying by the gallon is a different ballgame than buying by the drum or by the tank truck. Oil analysis and extended intervals become necessary as you scale up. Frequent changes are cheap insurance when buying by the gallon.

Abundant natural gas may mean more synthetic content in lube oil due to market pressures. Backward from what might have been expected in recently past years. Good enough is probably better than ever.

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This has been and is happening. The term "conventional oil" is about to disappear. In one amusing case, a few years ago the API (Amer. Petroleum Institute) was doing a periodic sampling and testing of virgin (from the bottle/unused) 5w-30 conventional oils. The Pennzoil product was simply off the charts and clearly not conventional. The samples had been purchased at retail facilities, not manufacturer provided. This was also noted in used oil samples being reported on automotive forums. The reason was the excess capacity from Shell's "Pearl" GTL natural gas facility in Saudi Arabia. Shell was simply sticking the gas-to-lube synthetic into their plain 'ole yellow bottles as it was more economical.

On the subject of viscosity and temperature, here is the graph I mentioned above. Bacchus pm'd me suggesting Drop Box, though I can't find a way to insert it, only link it.

Login - Dropbox

Note first the x-axis is linear and in degress Celsius. The y-axis is in cSt (viscosity) but logarithmic.

This is a representative comparison of a 0w-30 vs 10w-30 conventional S(park) rated oil. C(x) diesel oils will be the same, apples-to-apples. Note that even with a 0w rating, there isn't much difference at all in pumpability until -10C (15F). You really have to get below 0F for real-world differences to manifest.

One might be tempted to say "OK, but so what? Why not take the added protection?" The reason not to, if it's not strictly needed, is the adulteration of the lube by additives that wear out more rapidly and do not lubricate/protect. The raw percentage of these in conventional oil can be as high as 20%, I have read, in 0w and 5w oils trying to meet a 30 grade rating when hot.

Excellent post, Civilitas! You definitely deserve an “Attaboy” for that one! Bob Smith, the Lehman Guru said basically the same thing, although less elegantly and with saltier language.

In order to show that graph, try the Microsoft snipping tool (in the windows search box, lower left and corner, type snip and it will come up). You can put a box around the graph and save it as a jpeg, and then upload it to TF as a picture/photo.

Remember, many of these marinized engines are used in North n-marinized, land-based applications, so manufacturer’s specs are based on those requirements. The ER in my boat is heated in winter and rarely sees anything less than 40 F.

Jim

Civilitas wrote;
“I have read some petroleum engineers say the very best 10w-30s can be monograde in reality; just very good synthetic 30 weight, not VIIs to dilute and to shear and foul.”

That’s what I suspected. Ever seen a mono grade synthetic oil? No, because it can’t exist with the present labeling/classification system.
Like Jim my engine compartment very seldom gets below 40f so I just use 30 weight Delo.
I use 30wt Castrol in my old 87 Nissan but in cold weather I give it plenty of warm-up time and drive it slow for 10 minutes. Works well that way but it’s just a fun car to drive in good weather. Has 290000 miles on it so there’s no tight clearences. Low on compression but just a bit low on power. The car ran on 10w30 dino oil for the first 270000 miles. I run my boat at low revs for at least 10 minutes. No need to speed up right away. It’s best to warm up an engine when running (viscosity wise) a mono grade oil.
Worked in a powerhouse in Alaska years ago and they ran Delo 30wt on an eight cyl engine w a bore/stroke of about 15/18”. 327 rpm

NCheaven said:

Problem solved. The last thing I expected was to find the syn just by walking into WalMart....

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If I had a relatively new engine or a turbo engine, I'd be using full synthetic.

When I came up to New England from Florida the first time, I went to Walmart looking for straight 30W oil.
Not a drop.

All they had was 15w40. Since Walmart shelves what people buy, I figured if all the fishermen were using it, it was good enough for my Ford Lehman.

For those interested I attached the graph Civilitas linked back in post # 50
Very interesting - I have never seen this kind of comparison before.

Larry M said:

Yup. Here’s an oil discussion from a gear head who has done a lot of testing of oils and other stuff. It’s long but worth the read imho.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

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Quite the resource, I must say. I wonder if his torture testing of oil and the rankings from that testing would change if the test was closer to actual conditions of usage? I have no clue, but since he tests oil at 230 degrees, would the rankings or wear result be different if the test was at 190 degrees?

I've never been one to get too worked up about oil. I've subjected oil to what is probably one of the harshest tests I can think of...running it in my top fuel motorcycle, and pretty much anything works. I just don't see oil related failures, on that or just about any other engine...unless you forget to put it in. Having said that, I now see that Fiat Chrysler has issued a TSB recommending that eco diesel users drain the previously recommended 5-30 synthetic, and start using 5-40. There are reportedly a significant number of main bearing failures and the manufacturer somehow believes it may be related to the thinner viscosity. I'm very skeptical about that being the real reason..but have switched just in case they're right.

tiltrider1 said:

There are two Delo formulas. Delo 100 for 2 stroke engines and Delo 400 for 4 stroke engines. Which formula purchased was not mentioned. JohnDeere was mentioned so that would require Delo 400.

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There is some very good information coming out in this thread! Thanks to all who have contributed. There are those that are falling asleep!! LOL And that's OK . Most engine oils are pretty high tech and "good" today. But along with that complexity comes the fact that there are slight differences and that is why there are differences of opinion. As tiltrider mentions there are different Delo formulations for two stroke, Detroit two stroke specifically, and four stroke which includes almost all diesel engines today. Back in the heyday for Detroit and I am talking about late 60s, two stroke engines specifically required a less modern oil and a straight grade called 20w20 HD in the Esso line up of oils. It had to do with the the piston ring types, keystone or not, and how the rings seated in the liners. A series 3 oil had too much "detergent" for the rings to seal and wear properly on the Detroit. Also it was a serious mistake to use Multigrade in a heavy duty engine working under full load for sustained periods. It was described in technical school like different sized ball bearings in a multigrade oil, the bigger balls carrying all the load and reducing the even distribution of load on the bearings. So using multigrade is a compromise , the lesser of two evils, to use a thinner oil for quick oil flow at startup. Having spent my life repairing and operating engines in Alberta where it can, and does, get down to -60F, the nuances of which oil is best for absolute longest minimum wear life become the last thing to consider when you have to start a cold soaked engine at -40 to -60 with only a block heater plugged in. That is where a synthetic 0/30 type oil becomes extremely important. Where it is not more than a topic of debate for 99.9%of boat engines here. I recently spoke wit h a Cat tech that relayed a story about a cold start on a brand new C27 that was cold started and suffered a crankshaft bearing seizure in the first couple of minutes of run time. This resulted in change across the board in the recommended oil going from a more standard 15/40 to a 0/40, just to be on the safe side of an engine not getting lube oil because it is too thick to flow at whatever temperature an engine may have to start at. Is 0/40 then better oil than a good 15/40 or a straight 30 weight oil. Absolutely not when it comes to long running time due to normal running hours. But it may save a brand new engine on its first start if no oil can circulate. Some engine manufacturers have even suggested adding 10% kerosene to a normal 30 weight oil for improved flow at low start temps. I realize I am talking about extremes here but that is what is behind some of the outlier coditions that across the board recommendations are based on. In a perfect world run a straight grade 30 or 40 oil of the proper additive package in a displacement trawler running at 30 - 50 % epl and you will be at about optimum. If you are in hurry to get where you are going and run 110% of epl you maybe should be running a synthetic oil that withstands high heat better I believe.

There are also mainstream multigrade oils with additive packages that allow approx 50% more run time on a change. Personally in a low power demand trawler in a clean environment with few cold starts, I think it is feasible to run 2 or three times the recommended 100 hour change interval. That is getting into the realm of bypass and centrifugal filtration for another day!! By the way, for over 30 years now I have used Case Number 1 extended drain interval 15/40 oil in all my diesel trucks and heavy equipment as well as all my gas engines. This oil is made for Case by Accella. In hundreds of thousands of hours of run time I have not blown an engine due to oil problems. I do switch to 0/30 in a few engines that must start cold in our winters. Also do not switch oils in an engine which contain different base stocks. Can lead to oil consumption problems down the line.

Curious - is there such a thing as an active on-engine viscosity meter for those of us simpletons of modest budget? (I am sure they likely have these on large ships, but I am not that.)

API FA-4 oils will provide similar improvements over CJ-4 oils, but it is important to note that FA-4 oils are only intended for use in newer on-highway diesel engines. FA-4 oils will have limited or no backward compatibility with on- and off-highway diesel engines where engine manufacturers recommended CJ-4. While not specifically backward compatible, FA-4 oils are expected to play an important role in some current and new diesel engines by protecting those engines and at the same time helping them meet more stringent emissions requirements.

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https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issues/news/2016/11/18/new-api-certified-diesel-engine-oils-are

Ben said:

Curious - is there such a thing as an active on-engine viscosity meter for those of us simpletons of modest budget? (I am sure they likely have these on large ships, but I am not that.)

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Your cruising and hot idle oil pressure give a good reflection of viscosity. If you note that at hot idle, pressure is lower than normal, it means oil has a lower viscosity than usual. Either actually thinned or hotter.

I've taken like three oil samples on my engine, usually at around 200hrs on the oil. All showed viscosity still in spec, and oil still in good shape, so I change it around 300hrs.

I have done hundreds of oil samples on marine engines, and the only cases where viscosity was out of spec was due to fuel contamination. Not a real big concern otherwise.