Illegal Charters on Lake of the Ozarks MO

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As far as I know, as long as sharing of expenses is not a condition of carriage and the owner does not have monetary gain, then it is not a charter.....ie no passengers for hire
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
So according to the article, if you take friends out and they buy the fuel or the beer could you be considered an illegal charter?:angel::confused::eek:


https://www.workboat.com/blogs/the-...wdW1UM0FXUk13YzVteWRtVWVGYUpUd2ZBYWNyT3gifQ==
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I don't see that in the article. Can you provide a quoted text?

These guys had a dozen or more strangers aboard who were compensating them for the trip and they were unlicensed and not inspected. That's a far cry from my friends and me going fishing for the day on my boat and sharing expenses for the day's trip.

Please show me what I missed...
 
The CG has for many years determined that friends sharingexpenses are not for hire. The examples cited in the story had 15 and 24 passengers on the boats, not exactly friends sharing expenses.
 
psneeld said:
As far as I know, as long as sharing of expenses is not a condition of carriage and the owner does not have monetary gain, then it is not a charter.....ie no passengers for hire
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Paul,

What are the details of sharing expenses? Can one ask for a percentage of "cost of operating", maintenance, insurance, depreciation, etc?

I'd bet that "sharing" is only consumables for the most part. There's probably a "common goal" required, where the owner must have an interest in the trip. If he takes a bunch to a restaurant where he is only going for the boat ride, could that could be considered charter?

How about if a guy just rents a boat and divides the cost between his passengers and himself, each paying an equal share. That "could" be a non charter operation, until they find his girlfriend owns the boat and he financed her to buy it.

And if the operator doesn't know the passengers, that's another red flag.

We see this in aviation all the time and the rules are VERY strict, and suspect boating is similar.

Now there's talk of Uber airplanes and I'd bet Uber boats are to follow.... so wonder how that will be regulated.
 
U.S. Code Title 46. SHIPPING Subtitle II. Vessels and Seamen Part A. General Provisions Chapter 21. GENERAL Section 2101. General definitions

(30) “passenger for hire” means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.
(5)“consideration” means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.
 
I've been fishing much of my life and we almost always without fail, share the cost of fuel and bait. Usually it's BYO food and drink.

When cruising, I NEVER accept money for the day's expenses. If the guest wants to buy lunch or dinner, I'm usually for it, but it's never expected.
 
Seevee said:
Paul,

What are the details of sharing expenses? Can one ask for a percentage of "cost of operating", maintenance, insurance, depreciation, etc?

I'd bet that "sharing" is only consumables for the most part. There's probably a "common goal" required, where the owner must have an interest in the trip. If he takes a bunch to a restaurant where he is only going for the boat ride, could that could be considered charter?

How about if a guy just rents a boat and divides the cost between his passengers and himself, each paying an equal share. That "could" be a non charter operation, until they find his girlfriend owns the boat and he financed her to buy it.

And if the operator doesn't know the passengers, that's another red flag.

We see this in aviation all the time and the rules are VERY strict, and suspect boating is similar.

Now there's talk of Uber airplanes and I'd bet Uber boats are to follow.... so wonder how that will be regulated.
Click to expand...

See post #7.

If the passengers have no expectations of the skippers competence, I suspect that could be called into question.
 
psneeld said:
See post #7.

If the passengers have no expectations of the skippers competence, I suspect that could be called into question.
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Paul,

That makes a lot of sense.

I could argue that if the skipper is offering a cruise to an unknown party for the benefit of even receiving direct costs, it could be considered charter. If his friends are paying the whole fuel bill so he can get time on the water, not so, but the feds probably think otherwise.

There's an argument that a charter company taking unsuspecting passengers onto the great seas that are unaware of the risks should be held to a higher standard... as is the bus driver, airline pilot and guy who rigs your parachute for your sky diving lesson.
 
Don't disagree.

Friends paying for everything probably wouldn't even get you in trouble as long as you can show they are well acquainted friends.

But things are getting cloudy as Uber, Lyft, Air B&B, etc, etc are acceptable despite flying in the face of well established laws.
 
I think you have hit on a new business......selling BoatLyfts :flowers:
 
That change to the definition occurred in the early 1990's. Before that the official interpretation was "any" compensation required a license. It was routinely ignored.
I think your insurance co may have a problem with you if you have a claim while running under the table "for profit" charters. I would bet the IRS too.
 
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First thing that happens is that the boarding officers separate the passengers from the crew. Since the passengers usually have no idea that the vessel is operating illegally, they usually provide the information required to demonstrate that the voyage is in fact a charter. Posts and ads found on the internet is just icing on the cake.
 
USCG has been shutting down illegal charters heavily on the Great Lakes this past summer. I've gotten numerous emails from them on the topic.
 
FlyWright said:
I don't see that in the article. Can you provide a quoted text?

These guys had a dozen or more strangers aboard who were compensating them for the trip and they were unlicensed and not inspected. That's a far cry from my friends and me going fishing for the day on my boat and sharing expenses for the day's trip.

Please show me what I missed...
Click to expand...

Sorry Al. Meant it more of a question than a statement. Good discussion.
 
Seevee said:
We see this in aviation all the time and the rules are VERY strict, and suspect boating is similar.
Click to expand...
And you would suspect correctly. The rules are not identical, perhaps a bit less strict, but they are very similar.


Very much a second-hand story, so take it for what it's worth, but...


I had a friend who went out on a fishing trip with a guy that he knew. There were five total on the boat. My friend did not know any of the others. They were all required to pony up a set amount of money before they went out. The boat-owner told them this was to "pay for gas," but it was just a set amount -- not fill-up after the trip and split the cost.


On their return the Coast Guard was waiting for them. Separated the owner from the others, and started asking questions. In the end my friend and the three others were sent home with the warning that they were involved in an illegal charter, and shouldn't go out with someone who requires payment up-front, unless that person has a CG license and is operating a legitimate charter business.


My friend never heard just what happened to the boat-owner, but the CG was still there, with no indication that they were leaving anytime soon, when my friend drove away from the marina.
 
Shrew said:
I can see why the question was misleading.
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My bad!! I throw myself at the feet of the Admins feet begging for forgiveness. I wear my chain rodewith humble pie ohoooo please release me so that I may serve and continue to expressing issues like chain rode, anchors!!!!!! Please be kind.....:dance::eek::blush:


Gotta love the TF family....
 
denverd0n said:
And you would suspect correctly. The rules are not identical, perhaps a bit less strict, but they are very similar.


Very much a second-hand story, so take it for what it's worth, but...


I had a friend who went out on a fishing trip with a guy that he knew. There were five total on the boat. My friend did not know any of the others. They were all required to pony up a set amount of money before they went out. The boat-owner told them this was to "pay for gas," but it was just a set amount -- not fill-up after the trip and split the cost.


On their return the Coast Guard was waiting for them. Separated the owner from the others, and started asking questions. In the end my friend and the three others were sent home with the warning that they were involved in an illegal charter, and shouldn't go out with someone who requires payment up-front, unless that person has a CG license and is operating a legitimate charter business.


My friend never heard just what happened to the boat-owner, but the CG was still there, with no indication that they were leaving anytime soon, when my friend drove away from the marina.
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Occasionally the feds just go overboard. Looks like the above was clearly not a charter. There was no intent to make a profit, and no "holding out" for transportation to a fishing hole. And if I were going to share the cost of fuel, I'd absolutely ask for it up front if there were friends of friends on board. Collecting after the fact is very difficult.

Now, if the capt charged them a set amount of each $200 for fuel for a day on a typical mid sized fishing boat that should raise some eyebrows as it's clearly way over the cost of fuel, and starts to smell like charter.

There's lots of grey areas. It's quite common to have the fishermen rent a boat, and hire you as a captain. That's not charter and does not require a charter license, but the capt does have to be licensed to operate the boat for a fee or wage.
 
Clearly a charter. No gray there.

The chances of those guys understanding the capabilities of the boat or master were slim...therefore charter if money exchanged hands before leaving the dock...a SURE sign of charter.

And yes, your example is passengers for hire I believe....but not if the boats the possession of the guy who hired the captain and the passengers paid nothing. Ike the owner and family coming along on a delivery with a paid captain.
 
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Your hired

wwestman said:
First thing that happens is that the boarding officers separate the passengers from the crew. Since the passengers usually have no idea that the vessel is operating illegally, they usually provide the information required to demonstrate that the voyage is in fact a charter. Posts and ads found on the internet is just icing on the cake.
Click to expand...


YOUR HIRED ! lol:thumb:
 
The Lake of the Ozarks is clearly not innocent sharing of expenses but is charter for profit. The advertisements make it clear themselves. I've even gotten some of those ads based on one trip I made there long ago. There was a long list of reasons to stop and apprehend them.

Lake of the Ozarks is very much like the lake we lived on during weekends and holidays. The OP mentions constant wave action. Those of you cruising the ICW and coasts have never experienced wakes like you do on these lakes. It's a reason we don't get upset like others when someone wakes us. We were use to three or four or more boats waking you at one time from all directions. Not a pleasant place to boat on July 4. Then you toss in the danger of boats with many passengers, no captain, no inspection, missing safety devices, many distractions, inexperienced boaters, and heavy consumption of alcohol and it's scary.
 
BDofMSP said:
U.S. Code Title 46. SHIPPING Subtitle II. Vessels and Seamen Part A. General Provisions Chapter 21. GENERAL Section 2101. General definitions

(30) “passenger for hire” means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner,charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.
(5)“consideration” means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.
Click to expand...


I'm negotiating for construction of a cooperate pleasure boat and the plans are scary. Lots of different levels in areas where standing drinking and eating will occur, steep stairways without handrails (!), deck edge safety rails well below any standard. I told them I want to meet Solas requirements throughout, not received well ("looks ugly"). They don't see any liability downside taking out non-paying "friends".



"Non-paying friends", maybe not? Could a good lawyer (yes, I know what "ocymoron" means) or marine department bullycrats define entertaining suppliers to help get the best price or customers to help close or extend contract a potential consideration "indirectly flowing to the owner"?
 
Seevee said:
Occasionally the feds just go overboard. Looks like the above was clearly not a charter.
Click to expand...
I have to disagree. When the boat owner says, "You can't come along unless you pay X number of dollars before we leave the dock," that sounds exactly like a charter to me. The fact that he claimed the payment was "for gas" doesn't make any difference. Had he said that at the end of the day they would fill up and everyone would split the cost, that would be different.
 
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