Adventure - NYC to RI

Winter storms suck anywhere , including LI Sound.

With a chart book to show the many harbors an inshore passage , seldom more than 15 miles between anchorages , so hardly a risk for a super storm.

Sure it might be cold , but you will have all the anchorages to yourself , and in a real emergency , the USCG will still have operating boats.

A good test run, a few fuel filters , an anchor drill and a nice weather report would be all that's needed for a safe trip.

Its rare but the highest current I have ever encountered (my home waters for 40 years) in either the East river or LI Sound has been 5 K.

There probably will only be commercial fuel open , no marinas , at Port Judith , New Bedford and other commercial ports.

Enjoy the trip .Don't let the folks that have never had the pleasure of winter operations scare you.

FF said:

Winter storms suck anywhere , including LI Sound.

With a chart book to show the many harbors an inshore passage , seldom more than 15 miles between anchorages , so hardly a risk for a super storm.

Sure it might be cold , but you will have all the anchorages to yourself , and in a real emergency , the USCG will still have operating boats.

A good test run, a few fuel filters , an anchor drill and a nice weather report would be all that's needed for a safe trip.

Its rare but the highest current I have ever encountered (my home waters for 40 years) in either the East river or LI Sound has been 5 K.

There probably will only be commercial fuel open , no marinas , at Port Judith , New Bedford and other commercial ports.

Enjoy the trip .Don't let the folks that have never had the pleasure of winter operations scare you.

Click to expand...

I view fears/valid risks as manageable with preparation. As people bring risks to this thread, I am either able to address them with some prep, equipment or not. And if there are too many not handled, we simply won't go.

smitty477 said:

"Life is risky but we can affect it quite a bit."
- new boat , unknown machinery
- no sea trail of merit
- unknown fuel condition
- no hull insurance
- no tow boats on water
- very limited LEO assets available
- virtually no rec boats monitoring radio or in sight
- cold 10X more risky then warm weather
- no reasonable need to move boat now
- unfamiliar with boats handling
- unknown cruise speeds and fuel burn
- unfamiliar with route and sea states

I am really not sure if there is any measurable reason to make the trip rather than prepare and wait.

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I'm going to address each one of these, some valid concerns IMO:

- new boat , unknown machinery
[Will do a shakedown with mechanic, and hired captain comes with mechanic mate who will review as well.]
- no sea trail of merit
[Same concern repeated]
- unknown fuel condition
[I will know it before trip. I will either remove old fuel or polish. If polishing comes up with too much junk, will not go until tanks cleaned.]
- no hull insurance
[I was able to secure hull insurance]
- no tow boats on water
[Not true, I verified]
- very limited LEO assets available
[Don't know what you mean]
- virtually no rec boats monitoring radio or in sight
[In sight... ok, not so sure about radio...]
- cold 10X more risky then warm weather
[Agree, though 2X, 5X, 10X is really hard to quantify]
- no reasonable need to move boat now
[Lots of reasons, slip expensive in NYC, boat is not wrapped therefore open to elements, boat is distance enough away that I can't attend to the protection I want to do soon, seller needs slip back (but is patient), marina may not take kindly to new owner in slip, do not want run in with NY tax folks...]
- unfamiliar with boats handling
[Hired captain, and how does anyone ever leave the first time? Every first trip you are unfamiliar.]
- unknown cruise speeds and fuel burn
[Disagree, the KK42 is well documented]
- unfamiliar with route and sea states
[Hired captain from local area]

At the moment I feel comfortable that I can address every issue but the weather window. I feel that I will find that by the time I'm ready (probably mid February) that the weather windows will be one or two days long, which won't be enough for me. If they are three/four days I think it could be done. Again those parameters are:

• 3-4 days window
• Less than 3 foot seas, maybe 2 foot along route
• Temperature greater than freezing
• Winds less than 10? 7?

Winter storms are well shown on local TV days in advance .

The usual is a front of a day or two duration , followed by a bunch of cold clear fine weather.

If caught in an anchorage for a couple of days , how will the boat & crew be kept warm?

NYC winter is common mid 20's at night , mid 30's daytime.

bridaus said:

I'm going to address each one of these, some valid concerns IMO:

- new boat , unknown machinery
[Will do a shakedown with mechanic, and hired captain comes with mechanic mate who will review as well.]
- no sea trail of merit
[Same concern repeated]
- unknown fuel condition
[I will know it before trip. I will either remove old fuel or polish. If polishing comes up with too much junk, will not go until tanks cleaned.]
- no hull insurance
[I was able to secure hull insurance]
- no tow boats on water
[Not true, I verified]
- very limited LEO assets available
[Don't know what you mean]
- virtually no rec boats monitoring radio or in sight
[In sight... ok, not so sure about radio...]
- cold 10X more risky then warm weather
[Agree, though 2X, 5X, 10X is really hard to quantify]
- no reasonable need to move boat now
[Lots of reasons, slip expensive in NYC, boat is not wrapped therefore open to elements, boat is distance enough away that I can't attend to the protection I want to do soon, seller needs slip back (but is patient), marina may not take kindly to new owner in slip, do not want run in with NY tax folks...]
- unfamiliar with boats handling
[Hired captain, and how does anyone ever leave the first time? Every first trip you are unfamiliar.]
- unknown cruise speeds and fuel burn
[Disagree, the KK42 is well documented]
- unfamiliar with route and sea states
[Hired captain from local area]

At the moment I feel comfortable that I can address every issue but the weather window. I feel that I will find that by the time I'm ready (probably mid February) that the weather windows will be one or two days long, which won't be enough for me. If they are three/four days I think it could be done. Again those parameters are:

• 3-4 days window
• Less than 3 foot seas, maybe 2 foot along route
• Temperature greater than freezing
• Winds less than 10? 7?

Click to expand...

We have boated out of Northport LI for the past 30 years - made similar legs to that trip maybe 60 times or more over that period.
I would delay the trip and deal with the handleably issues at hand - shrink the topside, travel by car to the boat and deal with some of the mechanicals, get practice with the machinery and familiar with the boat, and travel in a few months when conditions improve dramatically.
FWIW - these items that were unclear....

- no tow boats on water
[Not true, I verified]

Towers in our location are unmanned and not ready to roll, these are franchises where they have other jobs/concerns when the phone goes dead in the winter. A tower 50 miles away is a long haul and a long wait at best.
- very limited LEO assets available
[Don't know what you mean]

LEO is law enforcement - as I posted above, just in our small area these boats number at about 15 in the summer within 10 miles. Best case is 1 or 2 in the winter and at the docks not on patrol.

- virtually no rec boats monitoring radio or in sight
[In sight... ok, not so sure about radio...]

Dockmasters, clubs, boaters on deck are all but zero in our area of LI sound now. That goes up to dozens by the start of the season.

- unknown cruise speeds and fuel burn
[Disagree, the KK42 is well documented]
OK so whet is it then? MAX WOT? High cruise speed at what RPM and fuel usage? Constant cruise speed at what RPM and fuel usage?

*]3-4 days window
- What stops (destinations) are you planning on making?


[*]Less than 3 foot seas, maybe 2 foot along route
-Not all that predictable to this extent - can change within a day rather easily.

[*]Winds less than 10? 7?
- Wind direction is more important than speed.

FWIW - I have done all of our own maintenance these past years on a few boats...including engines , cutlass, shafts, transmissions, thru hulls, tank cleaning , etc
When we bought one of our used boats in Haverstraw in January we left in there and I worked on it in place while the weather mostly cleared.
We really like boating , it should be fun … these are not paths I would take for reasons listed ….good luck.

smitty477 said:

- unknown cruise speeds and fuel burn
[Disagree, the KK42 is well documented]
OK so whet is it then? MAX WOT? High cruise speed at what RPM and fuel usage? Constant cruise speed at what RPM and fuel usage?

*]3-4 days window
- What stops (destinations) are you planning on making?

[*]Less than 3 foot seas, maybe 2 foot along route
-Not all that predictable to this extent - can change within a day rather easily.

[*]Winds less than 10? 7?
- Wind direction is more important than speed.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your thoughtful input. I am carefully working out the details, second visit to the new boat is this Monday (worst possible cold day coincidentally)

Answers to the above:

Cruise speed and fuel burn: http://krogen42stout.com/s/graph.pdf

Stops not planned yet, working on that.

Waves: Yeah, I was afraid of this, and is the wisdom I was looking for...

Winds: I'm not as concerned, not a sailboat, but I'm open to thought. Obviously a lot of wind against a current will cause problems, so really just looking for the best possible combination of weather.

bridaus said:

Thanks for your thoughtful input. I am carefully working out the details, second visit to the new boat is this Monday (worst possible cold day coincidentally).

Click to expand...

Sounds like you are planning well. Our 140Mi 2 day April trip last year in some of the same waters had a 4 day weather window. Shore was close by. Water was 38 degrees. Wind 10 knts on stern then beam then bow. Here's a vid of our ride:
It was a great trip and glad we made a go of it.

FF said:

Winter storms are well shown on local TV days in advance .

The usual is a front of a day or two duration , followed by a bunch of cold clear fine weather.

If caught in an anchorage for a couple of days , how will the boat & crew be kept warm?

NYC winter is common mid 20's at night , mid 30's daytime.

Click to expand...

Warm crew =
Primary: Espar
Secondary: A generator and electric heaters.
Tertiary: Maybe a small honda backup gen.

bridaus said:

Thanks for your thoughtful input. I am carefully working out the details, second visit to the new boat is this Monday (worst possible cold day coincidentally)

Answers to the above:

Cruise speed and fuel burn: http://krogen42stout.com/s/graph.pdf

Stops not planned yet, working on that.

Waves: Yeah, I was afraid of this, and is the wisdom I was looking for...

Winds: I'm not as concerned, not a sailboat, but I'm open to thought. Obviously a lot of wind against a current will cause problems, so really just looking for the best possible combination of weather.

Click to expand...

"Winds: I'm not as concerned, not a sailboat, but I'm open to thought."
In Long Island sound the wave action is more of a function of wind direction as opposed to just wind speed. Not having to do with sailboats or power just how the waves build due to fetch.

- Have you priced moving the boat overland? The mast is already down and its a 15' beam.
- Have you seen the bottom of that boat that has not been hauled in 5 years?
-Stops not planned yet, working on that.
That will be part of the challenge as they add greatly to time and distance when considering a short sunshine day, tidal currents and the weather.
- This is likely a better feel for speeds based on a model with a 135 in excellent condition.
http://www.curtisstokes.net/pdf/trawler-for-sale-42kadey-krogen-stevedore.pdf
Cruising Speed: Cruising Speed: 7 kn Max Speed: Max Speed: 8 kn

Here are some pictures I would want to carefully inspect the bottom and running gear myself.

https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1981-krogen-42-103428076/

https://www.popyachts.com/trawlers-for-sale/kadey-krogen-42-in-new-york-new-york-161408

smitty477 said:

"Winds: I'm not as concerned, not a sailboat, but I'm open to thought."
In Long Island sound the wave action is more of a function of wind direction as opposed to just wind speed. Not having to do with sailboats or power just how the waves build due to fetch.

- Have you priced moving the boat overland? The mast is already down and its a 15' beam.
- Have you seen the bottom of that boat that has not been hauled in 5 years?
-Stops not planned yet, working on that.
That will be part of the challenge as they add greatly to time and distance when considering a short sunshine day, tidal currents and the weather.
- This is likely a better feel for speeds based on a model with a 135 in excellent condition.
http://www.curtisstokes.net/pdf/trawler-for-sale-42kadey-krogen-stevedore.pdf
Cruising Speed: Cruising Speed: 7 kn Max Speed: Max Speed: 8 kn

Here are some pictures I would want to carefully inspect the bottom and running gear myself.

https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1981-krogen-42-103428076/

https://www.popyachts.com/trawlers-for-sale/kadey-krogen-42-in-new-york-new-york-161408

Click to expand...

That's the boat we are talking about just in case I've not been clear. It's cosmetically terrible, but it's been maintained by a mechanic for the past five years. Diver on it every year to do zincs. Was hauled three years ago.

That cruising speed matches my plan.

It's 20 feet tall. I feel that's too tall to truck reasonably. Open to thoughts on that though.

bridaus said:

That's the boat we are talking about just in case I've not been clear. It's cosmetically terrible, but it's been maintained by a mechanic for the past five years. Diver on it every year to do zincs. Was hauled three years ago.

That cruising speed matches my plan.

It's 20 feet tall. I feel that's too tall to truck reasonably. Open to thoughts on that though.

Click to expand...

I hope you have seen the bottom. In some marinas zincs need to be changed every three months. That potentially leaves 9 months of metal being eaten. True story: I know someone who has a friend that bought a brand new 500k boat in Nov a couple years ago. It was left in water Dec through Mar for winter. IIRC it started to sink but was caught and upon hauling all metal was pretty much eaten. I think $200k in damage. His insurance initially denied but eventually covered, in subrogation now. Guess what it was? He had a powered amp for his HDTV antenna and the coax somehow came in contact with metal on the boat and cause electrolysis over a couple months that basically destroyed the boat. I believe whoever installed/connected it (factory option but I dont remember if installed/connected by the dealer or factory) made a mistake somewhere along the way. As soon as I heard that story, I went to unplug my HDTV amplifier. I only plug it in if I need to use it now.

Is that mold in the cabin??

bridaus said:

That's the boat we are talking about just in case I've not been clear. It's cosmetically terrible, but it's been maintained by a mechanic for the past five years. Diver on it every year to do zincs. Was hauled three years ago.

That cruising speed matches my plan.

It's 20 feet tall. I feel that's too tall to truck reasonably. Open to thoughts on that though.

Click to expand...

Please note these items...
- It's 20 feet tall
Have you measured it from keel to top of fixed structure?
Or at least measured from waterline to top of fixed structure?
- That cruising speed is for a very clean boat with a 135 hp engine and good prop.
- The add says it was hauled 5 years back, your initial post says that the thru hulls are original.
- You have no real idea what the prop, strut, shaft, cutlass etc looks like
- No sea trail numbers
- Does your insurance have a clear rider on cruising this boat in the NE in the winter months? (in writing)

I would price moving it by land ...lift it onto the truck ...move and then block it at the destination.
This cost would be offset by hauling now, seatrails, a captain, fuel polishing now ,trip prep costs ,trip issues, trip time and the possible breakdown or delay miles away from home port for days/weeks/ or months.

mystery said:

Is that mold in the cabin??

Click to expand...

Yes - and many leaks and mechanical concerns that I can see.

Lots of leaks on decks over years, but slow and from topside attachments. No leaks in bilge or hull, I was on it for a couple of hours, never pumped or raised level. Mechanical concerns, please list them, I'd be interested in your review in addition to the two mechanics that I'll have going over it.

I will price it by land just for fun. My measurements are from the plans, keel to top of fly bridge without mast.

I'll look for the rider, but why does it have to be included? The policy does not have any time restrictions, only a 75 miles from coastline restriction.

mystery said:

Is that mold in the cabin??

Click to expand...

Yes, very light mold, almost hard to find, the kind you'd see on something that was left empty for a couple of months. I've bought and sold many vehicles/real estate in my life, and I expected a lot more on a boat left empty for two years.

bridaus said:

Lots of leaks, but slow and from attachments. Mechanical concerns, please list them, I'd be interested in your review in addition to the two mechanics that I'll have going over it.

I will price it by land just for fun. My measurements are from the plans, keel to top of fly bridge without mast.

I'll look for the rider, but why does it have to be included? The policy does not have any time restrictions, only a 75 miles from coastline restriction.

Click to expand...

"I'll look for the rider, but why does it have to be included? The policy does not have any time restrictions, only a 75 miles from coastline restriction"

All of our insurance policies for all of our past boats on Long Island included a layup period in the winter months - does yours not have a layup period? They also included a home port and limits based upon intended usage. They also all required a survey at 15 years and then at intervals after that age.
If your policy has no such issues then you are AOK.

bridaus said:

Lots of leaks on decks over years, but slow and from topside attachments. No leaks in bilge or hull, I was on it for a couple of hours, never pumped or raised level. Mechanical concerns, please list them, I'd be interested in your review in addition to the two mechanics that I'll have going over it.

I will price it by land just for fun. My measurements are from the plans, keel to top of fly bridge without mast.

I'll look for the rider, but why does it have to be included? The policy does not have any time restrictions, only a 75 miles from coastline restriction.

Click to expand...

"I will price it by land just for fun. My measurements are from the plans, keel to top of fly bridge without mast."

20' from lowest point to fixed upper structure - I find that hard to believe but its not my boat.
I will guess its closer to 18' with the prop on and topsides cleared of all removable items. Removing the prop may help with getting it lower on a trailer. A trucker familiar with these may be able to haul this at night with chase vehicles if and where necessary.

No layup on policy.

Draft is 4'7" and height from waterline is 15+.

Edit: 14' , so 18' 7"

As a KK- 42 owner, I can only advise you that the worst ride I’ve experienced in 40 years on the water was entering Long Island Sound from the East River into a 4’ head sea. The very short period almost knocks your teeth out at any speed.

The best move I made was having the tanks cleaned, not fuel polished. If you have never seen the interior of a 40 year old diesel tanks bottom with the inches of almost solid sludge, then I recommend you research it. That sludge would probably never be an issue unless the seas turned against you. At the point it begins to break up, you will be clogged, not just the filters, but the pick up tubes.

Pick your weather window for your trip, then schedule your tanks to be cleaned.

For me, that piece of mind of cleaning the tanks was paramount. But after seeing the tanks condition when drained, that made the decision a no brainer.

The KK-42 will take you anywhere, in any weather, you just might not enjoy the ride.

I’m sure you will enjoy her.
I’m in Ct, PM me we can talked to

Those laid-up tow boats are franchises and make great chase boats. One of them might be your captain and bring along his tow boat, on the trip, for a chase boat. Don't count on being rescued, be the rescue.

Do several shake down cruises and, you've been warned, don't discount the possibility of fuel tank sediment mixing with fuel once underway, clogged filters, lots of clogged filters. Count on it, drain the first bowl often, watch for it. Clogged strainers are common on the cooling system too. Old water pumps can't be trusted either.

Take real good binoculars, lots of drinking water and some canned food. Sardines and crackers are a tradition for extreme adventures at sea but you don't have to eat them. The binoculars can even compensate for myopia if someone loses their glasses.

If you can't make it fun, don't do it.

Heed the weather warnings as well. Bad weather makes minutes seem like hours.


Congrats on your new boat and your new boating adventures.

Boat said:

If you can't make it fun, don't do it.

Heed the weather warnings as well. Bad weather makes minutes seem like hours.


Congrats on your new boat and your new boating adventures.

Click to expand...

It's all fun to me, but I try not to let that blind me.

If there's anything like a warning, not going...

thanks!

One caution. Most fuel tanks are located next to the hull in what is a basically unheated area.

The fuel in the tank will be "summer fuel" which can wax and gel and not flow well enough for the engine pump to suck it , when cold.

As most small boats do not bypass much fuel there is seldom much warmed fuel returned to the tank.

The cure is an antigeling fuel additive like "Heat' , found in truck stops.

Add it to your fuel before the engine trial .

Power System Diesel Fuel ...
$7.99
Advance Auto P...

Power Service Diesel Fuel ...
$66.15
Petroleum Servi...


And many many more,

​

Have your captain go to the boat, check it out, take it out and run it one day. Then you'll know what you're actually dealing with. I can't tell you, nor can anyone else here, if your fuel needs polishing or what else is needed. It can be ready to go or like one trawler a captain friend of mine was running from Fort Lauderdale to Long Island this fall that had to be delayed for some extensive work to be done on the engines. Trip planned for summer ended up October.

Any insight into marinas along the way that are opened this time of year? And even if they are open, there won’t be any water at the docks. And are they open for fuel?

Those are the things I’d be looking at, aside from basic boat mechanical condition.

Can you load enough fuel to make the whole trip?

Full her range is 2800 miles. Think we're ok there.

I know a number of Marina's in RI are open. But good idea to check and plan in the Sound.

Re: Fuel polishing. Simple to get water out of fuel. Setup a 12V holley fuel pump and a racor 500. Draw from the bottom of the tank, return to the top. After a few hours you either have water in the bowl or not. If water, then polish until there is zero.

Crud on the bottom of the tank can't be polished out. Needs to be cleaned. Take a borescope (Amazon) with extension and put it down fill pipe. Bottom of tank will be shiny or muck. If muck, clean. If owner kept tanks treated with biobar or similar tanks should be clean.

If no water or muck then change oil and filters, check all hoses, and you're good to go.

BI Sound weather forecast for monday: "NW winds 20 to 25 kt with gusts up to 40 kt. Seas 7 to 8 ft. Freezing spray." (That's the average wave height.) Very rare to see calm waters in the sound during the winter.

How much will it cost to keep it where it is until May? Aren't winter storage fees already paid? How much for Captain? I know you want it in RI but what do you plan on doing from Feb to May on the hard? I think you will miss the 2019 boating season so I'm not convinced moving it now is going to gain you all that much.

"5 foot waves, no sea tow. and no other boats in sight".

Sounds like a normal day boating.
Check your fuel, get to know your boat's systems, bring tools and spares, and have fun!

SoWhat said:

Re: Fuel polishing. Simple to get water out of fuel. Setup a 12V holley fuel pump and a racor 500. Draw from the bottom of the tank, return to the top. After a few hours you either have water in the bowl or not. If water, then polish until there is zero.

Crud on the bottom of the tank can't be polished out. Needs to be cleaned. Take a borescope (Amazon) with extension and put it down fill pipe. Bottom of tank will be shiny or muck. If muck, clean. If owner kept tanks treated with biobar or similar tanks should be clean.

If no water or muck then change oil and filters, check all hoses, and you're good to go.

BI Sound weather forecast for monday: "NW winds 20 to 25 kt with gusts up to 40 kt. Seas 7 to 8 ft. Freezing spray." (That's the average wave height.) Very rare to see calm waters in the sound during the winter.

How much will it cost to keep it where it is until May? Aren't winter storage fees already paid? How much for Captain? I know you want it in RI but what do you plan on doing from Feb to May on the hard? I think you will miss the 2019 boating season so I'm not convinced moving it now is going to gain you all that much.

Click to expand...

Polishing will happen (either me, or a mechanic). Tank was treated, so that's good news.

Forecast? Good only for a short time, no one is going out right now, least of all me and this boat. Stated many times that I will wait for a weather window no matter how long.

How much will it cost? NYC is expensive, that's all I'll say. Safety is more important, but at some point after getting to know the boat and with a good weather window, it will be worth it. I'm hiring captain either way, so that does not factor. Feb to May on hard? I have soooo many projects... it's the biggest reason.

Great stuff, appreciate the input.

I would have a good stiff survey completed, as part of that the surveyor would tell you if all the seacocks are operational and not wasted. The early 80's were bad for blistering below the waterline on fiberglass boats, I would want to know the hull condition, checking zincs once a year is not enough in salt water, how often have they been replaced? I would have the motor surveyed too and especially have the oil analyzed. Personally, I would not leave the dock without at least liability insurance, without it you are betting your house if you have one.