I think the way to improve safety is self evaluation as Angus99 described while sailing in fog. Hopefully it becomes a life style to review a dangerous situation not to be repeated. I use it when boating, defensive driving, handling firearms, maintenance, you name it. Radar on our boat is a safety information source along with the compass, chart plotter, paper charts, vhf radio, engine gages and binoculars.
Radar "Required" or "Optional" for Great Loop?
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DDW,
Yes, I'm new to boating, only got 40+ years of experience in boating, but all pleasure boating, and small boats... 45 and less. I did operate with a commercial lobster license for several years in the Keys, but small boats.
I'm glad I wasn't old enough to have operated without radar as it was operational before I was born. You must be older than dirt if you did. However, the issue is what's appropriate for TODAY, not 100 years ago.
No one said that one should stay off the water without radar, and you know that. I'd bet that 95% of the time we don't need it. But when you do, I could argue to stay off the water if you don't have it.
And I don't know ONE mariner that would operate at high speed in fog thinking his radar would save him from everything.
However, I think we can agree that radar is a good tool at times, a one would be prudent to have it if they operated a lot in fog and at night.
When I started over fifty years ago we had a Kelvin Hughes ac radar so they've been around for awhile now. I can understand a person that goes boating on a very narrow budget foregoing equipment that may not be necessary but not having it on a $100,000.00 boat is silly unless you spend most of your time within a hundred yards of your slip or mooring. That's just my opinion mind you.
Paul,
You're absolutely right about risk management, and that's exactly what we do everyday. As for teaching judgment to manage the risk, I find that a challenge. I had been involved in developing some aviation courses for this kind of stuff and we would present scenarios and let the student make decisions on what to do. At times the answer wasn't necessarily right or wrong, but what would be more prudent. It was interesting.
psneeld
Guru
I have few talents in life...pretty much navigation and staying one step ahead of danger...
My last job in the USCG was head of Aviation Safety.
During that time I was part of the team that wrote the manual for Operational Risk Management for both the USCG and the DoD. As I was retiring, I was employed to teach Operational Risk Msnagement in the Navy as the director of the Navy program thought the USCG was at the forefront as we did something everyday that many only dreamed about....
As an Instructor Pilot, I am not sure I did anything in my whole life as challenging or scary as teaching someone to land on a ship at night in rough seas. Raising kids is scary but you have more than a second to react most of the time.
I am a mediocre helo pilot at best, a worse airplane pilot, a halfway decent assistance tower, not a bad salvage supervisor.....a lousy husband....not a bad dad or Scout leader...beyond that I have little experience, knowledge or care.
But risk management when flying a USCG helo or driving a boat....I think I am in the running to hold my own with anyone.
My last job in the USCG was head of Aviation Safety.
During that time I was part of the team that wrote the manual for Operational Risk Management for both the USCG and the DoD. As I was retiring, I was employed to teach Operational Risk Msnagement in the Navy as the director of the Navy program thought the USCG was at the forefront as we did something everyday that many only dreamed about....
As an Instructor Pilot, I am not sure I did anything in my whole life as challenging or scary as teaching someone to land on a ship at night in rough seas. Raising kids is scary but you have more than a second to react most of the time.
I am a mediocre helo pilot at best, a worse airplane pilot, a halfway decent assistance tower, not a bad salvage supervisor.....a lousy husband....not a bad dad or Scout leader...beyond that I have little experience, knowledge or care.
But risk management when flying a USCG helo or driving a boat....I think I am in the running to hold my own with anyone.
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O but clearly the boating skills of the average looper aren't what they were 20 years ago. And don't get me started on their docking skills.
Ted
Oh how we forget. What makes you think loopers 20 years ago were so highly skilled? There was the same variation of skills then as today. Some then as well who did it with no preparation or training. Some then who couldn't dock either. There have always been all types.
twistedtree
Guru
Agreed. I just don't want people thinking they need to get a doppler radar to have these features. In fact, I'll bet a significant number of radars owned by TF member already have some form of ARPA, ready to serve them.
To me the biggest takeaway from this 200+ response thread is that writing a check for a piece of equipment is a first, but incomplete step. You also need to commit to learning how to use it proficiently.
You are the Master of your boat, not your equipment. But the equipment provides some incredibly useful tools if you know how to use them.
Not at all, please feel free to use whatever terminology suits you, and I believe you're more than qualified to say "driving" a boat. You'll forgive me however if it sounds a bit odd to my ears, like the way a neophyte might say it, which you don't appear to be.
I don't predate radar, but I predate its popular use on small yachts, and nearly everyone predates its common use on small sailboats.
It is a useful tool. What I don't like is the attitude that pushing the "ON" button on the radar makes someone collision proof. In fact a prudently operated small boat can avoid collision in fog with some certainty, without radar. Installation makes some operate imprudently - I've seen it too many times.
It isn't like a ship where 200' visibility means you can't see the bow, and mere steerageway overruns your avoidance ability by 1/2 a mile. A small trawler operated at 5 or 6 knots in 200' visibility - with a good lookout - and which can stop in a boat length and a half does not need radar to avoid collision. Radar properly used adds to situational awareness. I'm all for it. Pushing the ON button and then getting the cell phone while watching TV and calling that a proper lookout is troubling.
psneeld
Guru
I try my best to cater to my audience...after dozens of airshows, I used to have to brief the crew to watch terminology and acronyms as I would see the audience lose interest when comprehension waned.
The same in forums, I try to keep it at the level the average boater on the dock understands. Sure the well spoken, technical and published posters get a lot of attention....but I get enough PMs to know my advice or info is getting through like I want it to.
The same in forums, I try to keep it at the level the average boater on the dock understands. Sure the well spoken, technical and published posters get a lot of attention....but I get enough PMs to know my advice or info is getting through like I want it to.
O C Diver
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I doubt you have attended an AGLCA meeting. To see the lack of navigation and cruising skills is breathtaking. 20+ years ago chart plotters would have been cost prohibitive for most. The simple act of navigation from charts and either GPS or Loran would likely kept many of the dreamers sidelined. While there would always be a range of skills in the participants, I believe the entry level would be significantly higher than it is today.
Ted
I guess I wasn't viewing folks on here as an "audience" but as people that were at some stage in their journey into boating. As such I assumed they either knew or sought to know the jargon and nomenclature of the field. It appears I was mistaken and as such risked offending you which you have my assurance was not my intention. I more than most am the neophyte here as I have yet to even launch my recreational boat. True I have spent the majority of my life at sea but I'm finding the contrasts between my experiences and the experience of many here.
My limited exposure may rear it's ugly head again but here goes. My recollection of learning to navigate in the days before plotters and other aids was that you had to actually learn how to navigate by manual means and use it enough that you became more than just conversant on the subject. Like learning to plot targets manually on a plotting board or the screen of the radar you gain a much broader understanding of the concept of a process that is today simply done for you.
AusCan
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We all have a slightly different perspective, which makes forums like this interesting. What is right and wrong for one user may not apply to another.
For example, I don’t have radar and it is not high on my priority list. Fog is a very rare occurrence on the water here. Boat traffic is also very minimal.
I still may pick up a radar unit one day, but the main reason would be for tuna fishing.
For example, I don’t have radar and it is not high on my priority list. Fog is a very rare occurrence on the water here. Boat traffic is also very minimal.
I still may pick up a radar unit one day, but the main reason would be for tuna fishing.
But also less pretentious.
What term do you use?
Captain? Is that right if not licensed? And Captain doesn't always take the helm.
Take the Helm? Ok. Then why in a car don't we say "Take the Steering Wheel?"
I actually like "Driving."
But 20 years ago, plenty set out with no charts, GPS or Loran. I don't think starting unprepared is something new.
I've not attended an AGLCA meeting but I've participated with some in discussions and been alarmed that they're about to undertake a trip for which they seem so unprepared. One recently was asked about their air draft and first asked "what's that." Then asked if height was a problem, shocked you just couldn't have all the bridges opened.
DDW,
Just pulling your chain a bit.....
I think we are in agreement. No onboard device is a cure all for everything, but can be great tools for situational awareness and safety.
No, one does not really need radar in fog, often at night, but it sure helps. I still venture out in fog without radar in my small SeaRay, but know how to get where I'm going without using the waterways for the most part, and very familiar with it. My SOP is not to do that in unfamiliar waters or Fri, Sat and Sun nights.
Often one is concerned about the "other guy" in the fog. The guy with no radar, no training, and no brains, often coming home from the favorite sand bar hangout and has exchanged is blood for alcohol. I'm not agains drinking and boating, but add all the other things and it becomes a high risk. Fortunately, most of the folks boating in my area are fairly safety conscious.
psneeld
Guru
Another often forgotten point of discussion ...
Most boaters I deal with never become proficient at any boating skill...just enough to get by doing what they like to do. The often really don't care about getting much better and they really dont care beyond the basic terminoogy.
Many here on these forums are already on track to becoming better boaters....but the vast majority of my boating friends and those I come across in the marine trades aren't particiants in forums, clubs, training, etc.....
Most boaters I deal with never become proficient at any boating skill...just enough to get by doing what they like to do. The often really don't care about getting much better and they really dont care beyond the basic terminoogy.
Many here on these forums are already on track to becoming better boaters....but the vast majority of my boating friends and those I come across in the marine trades aren't particiants in forums, clubs, training, etc.....
BandB,
Good point... driving works for me, but I do take the helm in my car
What surprised me is that I got significantly scolded over on the AGLCA forum for referring to the lady on the boat as the Admiral.
I always thought that is was an honor to be an Admiral, which outranked the Captain. Kinda like it is at home?
I could imagine what I would have got if I referred to her as Alpha Hotel.
Yes, those AGLCA meetings are interesting. I believe I met you at my first one, fall of 2017 at Joe Wheeler.
Been to two since and see pretty much the same stuff, with an occasional twist or a bit something new. I do enjoy them.
Seems like there's a lot of people that lack the skills you refer to, but an overwhelming want to learn! I'd be that most of those AGLCA graduates do pretty well on the loop. Heck that was me, learning, too. And it's really a good learning session.
Granted, one has to do way more than an AGLCA rendezvous, but not a bad start.
What gets me, is there are really some folks on the loop that have extremely minimal experience and are a danger to themselves and others. I've seen a few nasty accidents that could have been easily prevented with a bit of training. And what really gets me is the guy that brags about buying the boat on Tuesday and takes off on the Loop on Wednesday, and has never operated anything bigger than a canoe.
Wifey B: If you called me that I'd scold you too as would other lady captains I know and some ladies who were previously here. I would make it clear I'm a Captain, not an Admiral. What you and your wife agree to is fine with me. I see Admiral as a derogatory term implying issuing orders but doing no work and not holding the same skills or doing equal work to the Captain. Others may see it as a term of honor and endearment.
Yes, keep in mind those at the AGLCA rendezvous are not at all the least knowledgeable ones.
Fletcher500
Guru
TT,
We are starting to split hairs here, and this thread is starting to get repetitive, but here is my final thought;
I never said someone needs Doppler or one of these new radars. My point is, the screen data in front of you is more user friendly than the older systems. That fact alone will allow people who are currently uncomfortable with an older radar system learn these newer systems quicker, and become proficient with it.
I have had:
-Late 90's Raymarine.
-Simrad 5 year old system.
-Furono, 1 year old system.
The solid state Simard set up was basic, no Doppler, and not very $ in the big scheme of boating. A scanner and 12 in display was basically all I had, but the system was very good. Similar concept to my 2 year old PC I am currently using is better than the 5 year old one I got rid of.
From what I have read, all recreational radars will eventually be solid state and magnetrons will not be around. The bang for the buck for these new solid state systems is there, and worth the investment for anyone who travels offshore, at night, etc.
Another Disclaimer - there are no free lunches and we all have to put the time in on the water and reading the manuals to truly learn how to use any radar system. This goes without saying.
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psneeld
Guru
Fortunately most marinas and anchorages aren't that hard to deal with even for new boaters.
But Ted is right ...as not only are the driving skills lacking seemingly more than ever....even besides the greater number of boats, but courtesy and honor are all but vanished.
I have been hit by another boat in an established anchorage or a marina every year for the last 7 round trips to Fl. 2X in one day in Charleston Maritime. No one acted like it was a big deal or even offer insurance info.
The people last year that t boned me at 2AM as they sailed on their anchor refused to move...chose to stay up all night with motor running to avoid me. They were gone before I woke up. Real class.
Then there's the dozens of near collisions where they were pissed at me because I remained stand on till extremis ( because of other traffic, narrow channels, etc.....)
No, not impressed at all.
But Ted is right ...as not only are the driving skills lacking seemingly more than ever....even besides the greater number of boats, but courtesy and honor are all but vanished.
I have been hit by another boat in an established anchorage or a marina every year for the last 7 round trips to Fl. 2X in one day in Charleston Maritime. No one acted like it was a big deal or even offer insurance info.
The people last year that t boned me at 2AM as they sailed on their anchor refused to move...chose to stay up all night with motor running to avoid me. They were gone before I woke up. Real class.
Then there's the dozens of near collisions where they were pissed at me because I remained stand on till extremis ( because of other traffic, narrow channels, etc.....)
No, not impressed at all.
O C Diver
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Yes, I was at Joe Wheeler 2017.
The issue now a days is instant gratification. Many aren't willing to learn and then take a summer or more honing there skills. Everything just like in manufacturing is based on "just in time". What's really telling is how many people by a heavily used Looping boat and expect to do 6,000 miles without incident. Lack of experience will do that to you.
Ted
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