Radar "Required" or "Optional" for Great Loop?

Did my first "Loop" in the early 70's, used paper charts, vhf, compass. Had no problems at all. No GPS, wi-fi, radar, just basic seamanship. Had a ball!

Radar is one of those navigational items on a boat which is not necessarily needed when visual site of the water and land is available. Your taking a very long trip to waters that your not familiar with and in weather for which you have no control or escape. Granted, when traveling in tight canals and rivers, in the daylight, there is little need. However, you will enter larger bodies of water, fog does "roll in", and you'll wish you had it. So the question I would ask myself is "Why not?" By the way, a basic radar setup is not that expensive, especially if the dome itself can work with your chart plotter. You can get them used, as well, from those who have upgraded. Go for it! One important point - if you have radar, you are responsible to be able to use it.

I am kind of excited that getting radar has seemingly become withing the reach of the almost-common man - and so far the reviews are good. It is a solution I intend to explore in the spring.
https://www.amazon.com/Furuno-DRS4W-Watch-Wireless-Radar/dp/B00Q598HQY

These new solid state radars are so much easier to use and interpret data than the older magnetron units. The system I have will flash a target red, from green, if my Point of approach will intersect with the target. It also provides course vectors for other vessels automatically using ARPA. If the target is not automatically acquired via ARPA, it can be done manually. It still takes time on the water and reading the manuals, but overall a good experience.

DDW said:

I give lobstermen some slack because of what they do, but I've seen complete idiocy from some of them too. They're just people after all.

You weren't there when the Canadian trawlers went by. Full speed, no gear in the water, did not have the right of way over a sailboat sailing. I don't know what they were doing, playing cards?

Some of you'all are acting like I've said radar is useless. Did not say that. Just said it isn't a magic wand. I've navigated for decades in fog without it, never hit anything either. A decade or so with it, still haven't hit anything. I already said upthread they are so cheap you might as well have one. And by all means practice or take a course. Better with it than without. But if you think it is showing the whole and complete picture, particularly in weather, you are sadly mistaken. As countless radar assisted collisions have proven.

Click to expand...

DDW,

I don't give anyone "slack" for being an Ahole. We are all the waters together. The truck driver don't act that way when personal cars are on the same roads, and airline don't act that way when GA flies in the same airspace... and on the water the tow drivers are some of the most courteous folks on the water.

And we ALL work hard, and we are just people but not Aholes.

As for the radar.... if you can operate for decades without radar IN FOG, it's like playing Russian roulette. What if everyone did that? If you go in fog, get a radar or just stay home. I hope Im not in the same waters as you are.

The loop is a major undertaking. It is not a Disney ride. You must know what you're doing or you will hurt yourself and others. It takes skill, courage, and common sense. Attend the workshops.

Over three hundred boats start each year and only 150 finish. We took three years to complete the loop. We worked our web-based training company full-time and we made many side trips (Bahamas, Wash DC, etc.).

If you have a first mate that you would like to keep on-board for the full trip, make sure they know how to start and stop the engines, drive the boat, dock the boat, read the charts, and talk on the radio. I was in the Coast Guard and the learning curve wasn't so steep. My wife has more offshore racing experience than me, but for inland waters, she had a very steep learning curve. It will help ease her anxieties immensely.

Ever wonder why so many boats have so few engine hours? It's because the guy gets the boat, but is not really good at driving and doesn't know the rules of the road (colregs), takes the wife out and scares her half to death. When they finally get docked, she says she'll be happy to entertain on the boat but will NEVER go out again. Hence, great boats with very few hours. LOL

Must gotta haves for the loop (IMHO): Chart Plotter, Radar, AIS (receiver minimum). AIS is necessary on the rivers because you can't see the tows around the thousands of bends without it. I can't tell you the number of times we would have been nose to nose with those tows without it. A DeFever 43 got caught unawares and as a result hugged the wrong bank and when the water went out, the suction held him on the bottom - oops. $200 AIS would have prevented that error.

Radar - get an array that you can tune (tilt) to close up. Saved us many times getting through the crab pots in the dark when leaving a first light (we had cutters as well - used several times). Oh yeah, fog appears, even when the weather people say no. Saved us more than a few times. When you can't see, your radar can show you how close you are to the banks, other boats, bridges, etc. Don't leave home without it - not on this journey. And, make sure you know how to use it. Try driving your boat using just the radar (have someone else at the helm just in case). That's how they trained us on the USCG Cutter Rambler (100 ft. buoy tender) in the ICW.

Can you do the loop without a radar, sure. PTSD is treatable, marriage counselors are available, and lots and lots of insurance is also available. LOL. Do the loop safely with the right equipment and you will most likely want to do it again, but taking more time to see more things the second time around.

Bob

KidSheeleen said:

Did my first "Loop" in the early 70's, used paper charts, vhf, compass. Had no problems at all. No GPS, wi-fi, radar, just basic seamanship. Had a ball!

Click to expand...

Congratulations!
There are also people who have done it in small open boats and on personal watercraft. Wouldn't surprise me if someone has done it with oars or a paddle. What some people can do and most people should do are often very different.

Ted

Two of my ex classmates, 50 something year olds, rowed across the Pacific Ocean in a row boat without a radar.

Fletcher500 said:

Two of my ex classmates, 50 something year olds, rowed across the Pacific Ocean in a row boat without a radar.

Click to expand...

Were these high school grads? Probably not summa cum laude grads, right?

Sounds like a stupid thing to do. Hope they had a chase trawler for comfort and safety.

Seevee said:

As for the radar.... if you can operate for decades without radar IN FOG, it's like playing Russian roulette. What if everyone did that? If you go in fog, get a radar or just stay home. I hope Im not in the same waters as you are.

Click to expand...

You must be fairly new to boating. There was an age, not so long ago, when EVERYONE operated without radar, always. Relatively recently (say the last 30 years or so) small radar sets have become practical to fit to small yachts. Even more recently (the last 5 years or so) they have become practical to run on small (ish) sailboats. And yet, in that time, collisions in fog were not markedly more frequent between small boats than they are now. Part of this may be that now, everyone thinks running around at high speed in the fog is perfectly safe - I've got radar, after all!

I already said upthread, and I'll say it again for emphasis, radar sets are now cheap, get one. But the whole idea that without it we should all stay off the water is ludicrous. Safety in fog is 95% up to the loose nut behind the wheel, and 5% electronic assistance.

DDW said:

You must be fairly new to boating. There was an age, not so long ago, when EVERYONE operated without radar, always..

Click to expand...

I'm relatively new and never been out with a radar. I'm trained to operate many ways with a 500 Ton License but I don't choose to go backwards in time. Why not go back to when people operated without motors? Or plotters? Or Generators? Or Televisions? Or cell phones?

The reality is Radar is a good safety tool. Just one of many tools. What people did years or decades or centuries ago is totally irrelevant to the question of what they should or would want to do today.

BandB said:

I'm relatively new and never been out with a radar. I'm trained to operate many ways with a 500 Ton License but I don't choose to go backwards in time. Why not go back to when people operated without motors? Or plotters? Or Generators? Or Televisions? Or cell phones?

The reality is Radar is a good safety tool. Just one of many tools. What people did years or decades or centuries ago is totally irrelevant to the question of what they should or would want to do today.

Click to expand...

I wish we could go back to a time before generators, televisions, and cell phones. But that is a matter for another thread.

Do you go boating without a radar transponder? Without S band radar? Night vision goggles? Why not? These are available anti collision tools.

I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to prove that there has been a remarkable (or even statistically noticeable) reduction in fog collisions between small boats coinciding with the popularity of radar.

Nevertheless, there seems to be a reading comprehension problem here. I will repeat, once again for emphasis, going backwards in time:

DDW said:

I already said upthread, and I'll say it again for emphasis, radar sets are now cheap, get one. But the whole idea that without it we should all stay off the water is ludicrous. Safety in fog is 95% up to the loose nut behind the wheel, and 5% electronic assistance.

Click to expand...

DDW said:

Some of you'all are acting like I've said radar is useless. Did not say that. Just said it isn't a magic wand. I've navigated for decades in fog without it, never hit anything either. A decade or so with it, still haven't hit anything. I already said upthread they are so cheap you might as well have one. And by all means practice or take a course. Better with it than without. But if you think it is showing the whole and complete picture, particularly in weather, you are sadly mistaken. As countless radar assisted collisions have proven.

Click to expand...

DDW said:

The cost of radar will depend on what brand chartplotter, what age, who installs, and what you want out of it. For an older chart plotter, the minimum dome can be had for $500 on eBay. For a new chartplotter, $1300 - $1800 for current technology digital small dome, sky's the limit on the high end. Plus installation, but that is pretty trivial on the newest WiFi connected ones.

In the context of purchasing a trawler and doing the loop, this is pocket change, and should not even be a consideration in what boat you buy.

Click to expand...

DDW said:

I wish we could go back to a time before generators, televisions, and cell phones. But that is a matter for another thread.

Do you go boating without a radar transponder? Without S band radar? Night vision goggles? Why not? These are available anti collision tools.

I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to prove that there has been a remarkable (or even statistically noticeable) reduction in fog collisions between small boats coinciding with the popularity of radar.

Nevertheless, there seems to be a reading comprehension problem here. I will repeat, once again for emphasis, going backwards in time:

Click to expand...

No, no problem reading and your last post was to take a shot at Seavee and claim he must be new to have the opinion he has. That's what I was responding to. Clearly non of us have data on fog collisions, but I am going to use radar and I also use night vision at night.

Radar for the Great Loop

Yes, the are areas where you offshore, on the Lakes, or in the middle of a large Bay. You will at night, in fog, and "bad" weather. Radar is great for watching storms headed your way on the various canals and ICW.

Enjoy

Canada does not spend the bucks the US does for pleasure boaters.

A difficult channel in the US may have dozens of markers lining the path.

The Canadians are more likely to have sets of range markers to guide the vessel.

If fitted right the US day markers night be useful to navigate with radar , although the radar will be useless in Canada on ranges..

Lots of useless , or barely useful gear, just makes the trip far more expensive and more work to find a use for the gear you bought and installed.

Paper charts are required , a hand held GPS makes the chart more useful.

That it, at least that's all that has been used since 15 ft outboards began to run the loop , easily with safety in the 1950's.

If electric toy management is your boating hobby , have fun , but folks that prefer to look out the window seem to have more fun , and fewer hassles.

The looping jet skiers probably have the best view of all.


"If you go in fog, get a radar or just stay home."


NONSENSE !!! Use your anchor as folks have been doing for the past 5000 years , worldwide.

One needs to understand the difference between added safety and unsafe.

In 2003, when I started assistance towing, the boat I operated and a few others did NOT have RADAR or even a chart plotter on it, only a fixed mount GPS.

I as well as other captains were expected to operate all weather, day/night safely....yet purposely doing unsafe things with a boat. Heck, until 1989 I flew helicopters with no RADAR AND NO GPS well out of the FAA system of navigation. Again expected to operate safely in an unsafe environment.

Too many posts confusing what tools can and cant do.

Unless life is at risk willfully doing something which you know is unsafe because you're "expected" isn't particularly wise regardless of equipment. I've had plenty of companies tell me what was "expected" but if it conflicted with my judgement I didn't do it.

FF said:

Canada does not spend the bucks the US does for pleasure boaters.

A difficult channel in the US may have dozens of markers lining the path.

The Canadians are more likely to have sets of range markers to guide the vessel.

If fitted right the US day markers night be useful to navigate with radar , although the radar will be useless in Canada on ranges..

Lots of useless , or barely useful gear, just makes the trip far more expensive and more work to find a use for the gear you bought and installed.

Paper charts are required , a hand held GPS makes the chart more useful.

That it, at least that's all that has been used since 15 ft outboards began to run the loop , easily with safety in the 1950's.

If electric toy management is your boating hobby , have fun , but folks that prefer to look out the window seem to have more fun , and fewer hassles.

The looping jet skiers probably have the best view of all.


"If you go in fog, get a radar or just stay home."


NONSENSE !!! Use your anchor as folks have been doing for the past 5000 years , worldwide.

Click to expand...

Following your logic, mankind has sailed for thousands of years. Can't understand why you were so foolish as to buy boats with single motors. Can't begin to fathom why you would make yourself so dependent on such an unreliable complicated piece equipment.

Ted

Kind of makes you wonder why a compass was invented or an astrolabe, hell just jump on a log and sail the seven seas.

Maybe it's because I come from years of commercial work or maybe I'm just a wimp but going to sea has some inherent risk and acquiring every advantage to make a voyage safe and successful has always made sense to me.

psneeld said:

One needs to understand the difference between added safety and unsafe.

In 2003, when I started assistance towing, the boat I operated and a few others did NOT have RADAR or even a chart plotter on it, only a fixed mount GPS.

I as well as other captains were expected to operate all weather, day/night safely....yet purposely doing unsafe things with a boat. Heck, until 1989 I flew helicopters with no RADAR AND NO GPS well out of the FAA system of navigation. Again expected to operate safely in an unsafe environment.

Too many posts confusing what tools can and cant do.

Click to expand...

One of the things that's often missed in these discussions, is the difference between what a trained professional mariner can do versus the average looper. Most loopers I've talked to have very modest boating experience, usually in significantly smaller boats. Many buy their boat with the sole purpose to do the loop and sell it. Many need all the electronic (chart plotters, radar, and AIS) help they can get. I would guess half would find the trip too daunting with only charts. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad modern technology allows more people to do the trip, but clearly the boating skills of the average looper aren't what they were 20 years ago. And don't get me started on their docking skills.

Ted

There is really no substitute for experience and the more you have the more you realize you need more.

Fish53 said:

There is really no substitute for experience and the more you have the more you realize you need more.

Click to expand...

Fish53 said:

Maybe it's because I come from years of commercial work or maybe I'm just a wimp but going to sea has some inherent risk and acquiring every advantage to make a voyage safe and successful has always made sense to me.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more!!!

Put me in the must-have column for radar. Having once been caught in sudden thick fog at night off of Sandy Hook in a sailboat without radar (or GPS), I would never willingly go back into that scenario. We could hear commercial ships very close by and had to rely on VHF and THEIR radar for assurances that we could hold our course.

One more argument for modern radar: On our recent half-loop, we found that Furuno’s “Doppler” radar is more than just a gimmick. We were in broad, clear daylight approaching Grand Haven, MI after a fairly long day. Every boater on that side of the lake was out that day trying to catch what they must have thought was the last glorious summer Sunday afternoon of the year. Boats were EVERYWHERE, going two to four times our speed, and it was hard for us—already a bit fatigued—to tell just by looking which were going to cross us, which would duck behind or which wanted to play chicken. At times it felt like one of the Star Wars battle scenes on Xanax—incoming from every point of the compass . . . slower, but non-stop. This went on for a couple of hours as we got closer to Grand Haven.

The Furuno Doppler radar paints targets red that are moving on a course that will bring them closer to you. Boats that are moving away, moving very slowly or at anchor are green. Sounds gimmicky, but it really worked and allowed us to prioritize the targets we wanted to stay focused on visually. Not a substitute for eyes on surroundings, of course, but definitely a help for us.

Side note: when we were finally at the marina on the Grand River, I started counting boats passing our stern as they came in off the lake. Extrapolating from my 10-minute survey, there must have been over 1,000 boats coming up that none-too-wide channel after we docked! I have no idea where all those boats ended up.

To cap it off, at sunset we heard the blast of a freighter horn and watched in amazement as the 767-foot self-unloader Kaye E. Barker threaded her way up the narrow, twisting channel amongst the remaining pleasure craft. Quite a job of piloting!

FlyWright said:

Were these high school grads? Probably not summa cum laude grads, right?

Sounds like a stupid thing to do. Hope they had a chase trawler for comfort and safety.

Click to expand...

Both have unlimited horsepower, unlimited tonnage licenses. I believe one sailed as a Chief Engineer and has hundreds of thousands of miles under his keel. No chase boats involved. Self powered ocean crossings are the Holy grail in my opinion, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for them.

O C Diver said:

One of the things that's often missed in these discussions, is the difference between what a trained professional mariner can do versus the average looper. Most loopers I've talked to have very modest boating experience, usually in significantly smaller boats. Many buy their boat with the sole purpose to do the loop and sell it. Many need all the electronic (chart plotters, radar, and AIS) help they can get. I would guess half would find the trip too daunting with only charts. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad modern technology allows more people to do the trip, but clearly the boating skills of the average looper aren't what they were 20 years ago. And don't get me started on their docking skills.

Ted

Click to expand...

Ted, this is tough as I agree with everything you say.

The two tiny additions from my experience are...

1. Most cant use even modern radar well enough under pressure to say its a safety tool...heck, enough almost get run down in shipping channels in clear blue and 42.

2. The word safety and risk management were beaten into me by the USCG and I was overly trained in that arena. So my quibbling with how the term "safety" is debated is my quirk..... but I just see it differently than how many here use the term like its a rubber stamp.

Fish53 said:

Unless life is at risk willfully doing something which you know is unsafe because you're "expected" isn't particularly wise regardless of equipment. I've had plenty of companies tell me what was "expected" but if it conflicted with my judgement I didn't do it.

Click to expand...

And me plenty of times too....

BUT, I used the word safely as many here do...

I really use "risk management" more because it is really how most professionals operate...at least the good ones.

When guiding recreational boaters trapped offshore a bad inlet because of fog or doing some salvage jobs....it is not "safe" in most boaters minds, but a pro can risk manage and that is what was expected......as well to speak up and refuse to do exceptionally risky tasks where the risks cant be managed.

I may be preaching to the choir, but most people confuse safety as some kind of absolute....thus why many rescue organizations find the need to teach risk management as well was basic safety practices.

Fletcher500 said:

These new solid state radars are so much easier to use and interpret data than the older magnetron units. The system I have will flash a target red, from green, if my Point of approach will intersect with the target. It also provides course vectors for other vessels automatically using ARPA. If the target is not automatically acquired via ARPA, it can be done manually. It still takes time on the water and reading the manuals, but overall a good experience.

Click to expand...

Those are all excellent features, but other than the color change of targets, the features have no reliance or dependance on solid state. Magnatron radars have been doing all this for decades. In fact, there is no reason you couldn't change the color of targets with too small a CPA just using ARPA.

As long as an element of chance exists you are engaged in "risk management", when you see the chance is in fact a likelihood and proceed anyway you are a fool. As in every moment of your life there is some risk, no matter how unlikely, risk management is a daily activity. The real issue here is judgment and doing anything to sharpen it is a worthwhile task.

twistedtree said:

Those are all excellent features, but other than the color change of targets, the features have no reliance or dependance on solid state. Magnatron radars have been doing all this for decades. In fact, there is no reason you couldn't change the color of targets with too small a CPA just using ARPA.

Click to expand...

TT, you have logged many miles and have more experience with radar than I do, so I follow your comments on this subject. The main point I was making is ease of use. On the older magnetron system I had on a previous boat, it was a bit of pain to get it working right, and the data was harder to interpret, for me at least. These new systems are more intuitive, and easier to use in general. Disclaimer so I don't get misquoted - they still require time on the water and digging through the manuals to understand the nuances of what they are telling you.