Adding Mast and Sails to Trawler

Wow. This forum is all about folks who know everything about everything and there is no room for those of us who disagree , based upon real life experiences . Good luck. But yes, a trawler steadying sail like those used on the great fishing trawlers of the northeast, where real trawlers live, believe in them.

Yes, I expect the darts and arrows of those who believe themselves to be true yachtsmen and women.

JYoung said:

Wow. This forum is all about folks who know everything about everything and there is no room for those of us who disagree , based upon real life experiences . Good luck. But yes, a trawler steadying sail like those used on the great fishing trawlers of the northeast, where real trawlers live, believe in them.

Yes, I expect the darts and arrows of those who believe themselves to be true yachtsmen and women.

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There's experts aplenty in any area of interest, some are worthy of the title others perhaps not. I've not always been received all that well when I ask a question, express an opinion or share experiences either. Don't take it too hard the world is made up of a myriad of differing peoples, find some you like and ignore the others.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. La. "...cost be somewhat offset...? Sure but it may take you 432 years to realize the break even point. I think you're trying to make a pig's ear out of a silk purse.


Pretty well the same deal with Tesla motor replacement but it may only take 196 years (you could sell the DD's and recoup some of the expense) to "break even".



Sorry to be so blunt but as many have said, fuel is a small expense in the greater scheme of boat ownership as you will most probably find out once you get the bill for your bottom and restoration work.


There is another alternative BUT it might take a substantial crew...

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Funny but true.
Welcome aboard !

I have a steadying sail that came with my 48’ trawler. A lot of owners cut them off, but I would never do that.

The cost of purchasing by the times/hours you would really use it. Not good.

Best to you

An offshore motorboat flying a spinnaker.

Avard Fuller flying a another spinnaker on an earlier boat, Pieces of Eight.

My FD hull trawler had the option of a power assist sail. At times, I have been tempted to explore adding a mast.

Vashon_Trawler said:

My FD hull trawler had the option of a power assist sail. At times, I have been tempted to explore adding a mast.

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That's similar to what I intend for my whaleboat, I've seen pictures of Tad's Timbercoast with a similar rig also.

Who needs a mast and I can’t say it’s a trawler but... At first we didn’t know what we were looking at as we were leaving St. Maartin. By the time I got the camera out, she had out distanced her self from us. The kite was on a power cat of about ~40'? Aren’t some commercial vessels experimenting with something similar? Looked like a lot of power down wind.

I watched a 45 ft wood ketch flying a spinnaker single handed. It was a beautiful sight right up till he lost control. His boat was being dragged sideways rail down. He finally cut a sheet line to save his boat. Flying a spinnaker is not for the inexperienced or short handed.
Seriously buy more diesel. For your 60 ft 60000 lbs vessel expect a spinnaker about 3 to 4000 square ft. In the light winds 2 to 5 mph you will be getting 3 to 4 lbs per sq ft of sail . That's in the neighborhood of 9,000 to 20,000 lbs of force pretty big neighborhood.
Best of luck.

Southx10 said:

I watched a 45 ft wood ketch flying a spinnaker single handed. It was a beautiful sight right up till he lost control. His boat was being dragged sideways rail down. He finally cut a sheet line to save his boat. Flying a spinnaker is not for the inexperienced or short handed.
Seriously buy more diesel. For your 60 ft 60000 lbs vessel expect a spinnaker about 3 to 4000 square ft. In the light winds 2 to 5 mph you will be getting 3 to 4 lbs per sq ft of sail . That's in the neighborhood of 9,000 to 20,000 lbs of force pretty big neighborhood.
Best of luck.

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This is why I never used my parachute with the engine shut down, I could always turn into the chute if necessary. It was all hydraulic anyway with a collapsing line on a winch for retrieval.

LaVolta said:

Hello everyone! Yes, I am new here, and just want to say I really enjoy reading all the awesome questions and answers here on this forum.
O.K. so here goes my first question:
I have been reading many threads concerning adding one or more of the following to a traditional Trawler for purposes of either sail assist, or Sail Steadying; Get Home Sail; Ride Sail; Steadying Sail, and/or Lugger Sail. I do understand the many replies in which it has been pointed out that a trawler just does not have what it takes to truly have a Sail Rig for purely propulsion purposes. namely hull design, Keel, Rudder, nor proper Ballast. But what I was considering is more of a Spinnaker type Sail Rig for running with the wind.
I have a 60 foot Concorde Motor Yacht, 16' Beam and about 60k pounds (loaded and provisioned). Not looking for total sail propulsion via a Spinnaker, but more along the lines of assisting the 8V71tti Detroits to maybe help save some fuel?
Any ideas or even the flat out no way, would be appreciated.
I do hope that everyone had a wonderful Christmas and wish everyone a pleasant stress free (as much as possible) New Year.

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In My Humble Opinion (IMHO), sails are not worth it in trawlers. The sails, the mast(s), and their rigging all require frequent maintenance, interfere with the topside space, complicate operation of the vessel, and provide little improvement at the upper trawling speeds.

From physics, under optimal conditions and below hull speeds, increasing the speed of a displacement boat by 26% requires doubling the power of the vessel propulsion. Therefore for the size and displacement boat you are referring to, a noticeable speed impact probably requires a lot of sail area, even a multi-mast solution. Such a proposition IMHO is an unacceptable complication in the operation of the boat.

It is based on this simple view that I got rid of the mast in my trawler and concluded that I can double the range of my trawler by reducing the speed to 80%. That is, if I can go for 1500 miles at
7 knots, I can go 3000 miles at 5.6 knots.

The governing formula is: The ratio in fuel consumption is proportional to the cube of the ratio of the velocities.

Power2/Power1 = K cube (Speed2/Speed1)

and fuel consumption is proportional to power. So cube (1.26) = 2 or 26% speed increase doubles consumption of fuel.

Other boaters may consider a little bit of sail work when operating the boat as a pleasurable activity and they may have a different view about sails in a trawler. I do not.

I added a sail rig to my “trawler”. Main reason was for stability, second reason was for “get home” ability (or get *somewhere* since it doesn’t point to the wind well without the engine). Third reason is because thought I would like fiddling with sails while underway (I do). Other benefits I realized later— I can hang hammocks all around the boat now, the sails throw off some nice shade at certain angles, the boom is used as a crane for the dinghy.

My boat was already designed for a sail rig (full keel with ballast, big rudder, narrow, rounded hull) so it made the install a *little* easier, but it was still an expensive operation and probably made little financial sense, but any type of stabilization was going to be pretty expensive, be it a gyro (not really room for it) or paravanes (cheaper but ugly on my boat, and would slow it down). Mack Sails in Stuart did all of the install. They have lots of experience replacing rusted out chain plates on Island Packet sailboats so adding chain plates to my Island Packet “trawler” didn’t seem to faze them at all. I think they did a good job on the install and it was turn key so I did not have to do much. It was expensive at $40k, but they used all new components, an in mast furling system and a very expensive electric winch that I really didn’t need (I realize now), so it could have been done cheaper.

The sail area is only 377 sq ft with my 40’ mast, or about 1/2 of what the sail version of my boat was designed for, so without the engine it only makes about 3-4 knots in good wind, so it needs the engine running. I am able to reduce the engine RPM by about 500 rpm and get the same speed in decent wind (12 knots plus), as long as I’m cruising below hull speed.

As a guy that likes most Detroits, if you want to save fuel, go slower, put in smaller injectors. I have IL671s in an 83', 80 ton boat and burn 8.5 gallons an hour at 10 knots.
Your boat was probably designed and built to go fast, hence the 8v71s. So was mine, built with twin 850hp mains and did 22 knots. But I'm happy to cruise at 10 knots.

Take a look at diesel ducks.com and you can see what some people have done in the photos section. I have a 38 foot duck and have a rig from a sailboat that I am adapting to my boat. I feel just a steadying sail would improve fuel economy because of the decreased rolling. I plan to put a balanced lug sail on a unstated mast behind the house and put a stayed mast fed of the wheelhouse.

Hi,


Old topic http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/save-fuel-cruising-green-30398.html


NBs

Hi Guys,


The above discussion goes most about fuel costs and the choise of sails.


But sails has another advantage.


Traveling long distances on a powerboats is a bit boaring, the autopilot does the steering, the radar and AIS helps you with scanning the horizon.


When you have to take care of a (set of) sails, then you suddenly becomes more busy. Your trip will become more intresting.

I have a traditional timber fishing trawler hull pleasure boat with a ketch rig. Displacement boat with a 6LXB Gardner engine. The sail rig is very good for 2 reasons. 1, With main up and or main and jib it stabilises the boat considerably and promotes a bit of motor sailing.
2. with favourable winds , aft and on the quarter I get some good boat speed and have on various occasions returning from the reef been able to reduce mu engine RPM down to 700 (fuel burn approx 6 lt/hr) and still maintain my 8 knots.
Hey it works for me.
Twin screw boat not so sure.

rolomart3 said:

In My Humble Opinion (IMHO), sails are not worth it in trawlers. The sails, the mast(s), and their rigging all require frequent maintenance, interfere with the topside space, complicate operation of the vessel, and provide little improvement at the upper trawling speeds.

From physics, under optimal conditions and below hull speeds, increasing the speed of a displacement boat by 26% requires doubling the power of the vessel propulsion. Therefore for the size and displacement boat you are referring to, a noticeable speed impact probably requires a lot of sail area, even a multi-mast solution. Such a proposition IMHO is an unacceptable complication in the operation of the boat.

It is based on this simple view that I got rid of the mast in my trawler and concluded that I can double the range of my trawler by reducing the speed to 80%. That is, if I can go for 1500 miles at
7 knots, I can go 3000 miles at 5.6 knots.

The governing formula is: The ratio in fuel consumption is proportional to the cube of the ratio of the velocities.

Power2/Power1 = K cube (Speed2/Speed1)

and fuel consumption is proportional to power. So cube (1.26) = 2 or 26% speed increase doubles consumption of fuel.

Other boaters may consider a little bit of sail work when operating the boat as a pleasurable activity and they may have a different view about sails in a trawler. I do not.

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I appreciate that you don't want sails and I'm certainly not here to sell them to you but. Two important considerations were left out of your comments, one is the possibility of using sails as emergency propulsion. Many on here may never leave the security of a populated near coastal area with frequent boat traffic. If that's the case then a self rescue may be an unlikely scenario. Some of us however intend to go farther afield where assistance may be more thinly spread. Personally I'm interested in going up to Newfoundland and Labrador which while not uninhabited isn't Miami beach either. The other issue is roll attenuation, I guess you either feel you need it or you don't but sails are one of a few options for that duty.

Tidahapah said:

I have a traditional timber fishing trawler hull pleasure boat with a ketch rig. Displacement boat with a 6LXB Gardner engine. The sail rig is very good for 2 reasons. 1, With main up and or main and jib it stabilises the boat considerably and promotes a bit of motor sailing.
2. with favourable winds , aft and on the quarter I get some good boat speed and have on various occasions returning from the reef been able to reduce mu engine RPM down to 700 (fuel burn approx 6 lt/hr) and still maintain my 8 knots.
Hey it works for me.
Twin screw boat not so sure.

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You have a Gardner? My heart be still, what a gem, I have a Lister and a weakness for British iron. I was curious what the your boats displacement and sail area were, if you don't mind.

Boat is 48'6" x 15'3" x 5'8" 30 Tonne with a total sail area of approx 60 sq mts

Tidahapah said:

Boat is 48'6" x 15'3" x 5'8" 30 Tonne with a total sail area of approx 60 sq mts

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Thanks, it seems like that works pretty well for you.

Never say Never

As a 40 year sailor and racer who recently transitioned to a trawler I too have considered the possibility of some sort of sail configuration. In my case it would be for engine failure or a need to conserve fuel for some reason.
I exhausted the thought process on this and chose extended towing instead.
Sailing is an art and sometimes the wind is violently unpredictable. Most sail failures I’ve experienced or witnessed have been in the downwind configuration. A gust and a mistimed wave can be disastrous even with a 6000 lb keel.
That said, good luck to you. You apparently have the resources and desire to see this jaw dropping project through.

LaVolta said:

Hello everyone! Yes, I am new here, and just want to say I really enjoy reading all the awesome questions and answers here on this forum.
O.K. so here goes my first question:
I have been reading many threads concerning adding one or more of the following to a traditional Trawler for purposes of either sail assist, or Sail Steadying; Get Home Sail; Ride Sail; Steadying Sail, and/or Lugger Sail. I do understand the many replies in which it has been pointed out that a trawler just does not have what it takes to truly have a Sail Rig for purely propulsion purposes. namely hull design, Keel, Rudder, nor proper Ballast. But what I was considering is more of a Spinnaker type Sail Rig for running with the wind.
I have a 60 foot Concorde Motor Yacht, 16' Beam and about 60k pounds (loaded and provisioned). Not looking for total sail propulsion via a Spinnaker, but more along the lines of assisting the 8V71tti Detroits to maybe help save some fuel?
Any ideas or even the flat out no way, would be appreciated.
I do hope that everyone had a wonderful Christmas and wish everyone a pleasant stress free (as much as possible) New Year.

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30tons? forget it

How about these, at least one I know is a production boat. I'd be curious how these work for roll attenuation and get home propulsion.[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

The TC 22 pictured above looks like a nice little boat that would handle a variety of conditions. In addition, the paravanes would ensure good stabilisation even without the sails.
It does have a limited amount of sail area (maybe 100 square feet, so propulsion by sail alone would be slow.

AusCan said:

The TC 22 pictured above looks like a nice little boat that would handle a variety of conditions. In addition, the paravanes would ensure good stabilisation even without the sails.
It does have a limited amount of sail area (maybe 100 square feet, so propulsion by sail alone would be slow.

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I believe you're correct but slow may be better than stopped or aimlessly drifting at times. I dislike paravanes for the drag and unnecessary complication, I don't mind a roll in a round bilge boat.

Many people do not see the value of sails, as they only look at how much propulsion they give. As cardude explained in post #44, it’s about much more than that. Stability and get home ability are the two biggest pluses. This may not be a benefit to those boating on protected water with towing service around the corner. But for those in open, isolated water it is a huge plus. This alone is worth the cost of the sails.

The only thing I would question is whether to convert a mastless trawler, or buy a trawler style motorsailer that is already set up to do the job.

AusCan said:

Many people do not see the value of sails, as they only look at how much propulsion they give. As cardude explained in post #44, it’s about much more than that. Stability and get home ability are the two biggest pluses. This may not be a benefit to those boating on protected water with towing service around the corner. But for those in open, isolated water it is a huge plus. This alone is worth the cost of the sails.

The only thing I would question is whether to convert a mastless trawler, or buy a trawler style motorsailer that is already set up to do the job.

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I agree, my cruising activities seldom involve heavily traveled areas and I'm sort of a do it myself kind of person anyway. The small boat I'm currently putting together is 26 feet and similar to a Timbercoast 22 and it will have some sort of sails on it though I haven't decided exactly what yet. I like your boat very much, I looked at a Colvic 29 up on PEI last year that appears to be similar. Me and the seller couldn't come to terms though, that was six months ago and I see he still has it listed, perhaps he's more pliable now. May I ask what you have for power?

Fish53 said:

. May I ask what you have for power?

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Originally my boat had a Volvo MD17 but I recently re-powered with a Vetus (Mitsubishi) 42hp.
For sail power I have a 210 square foot gaff rigged main and a 100 square foot club footed jib.
It will do 6 knots under sail alone but it requires a 25 knot breeze for that

Depending on the conditions I probably motorsail 50%, motor only 30% and sail only 20% of the time.

Very nice, I admit I have a weakness for pilothouse motorsailers. Thanks