I've actually been close to run down many more times by commercial boats than pleasure. Usually fishing boats in the 30 - 180' range. A significant percentage of which do not show up on a small radar set no matter how you twiddle the knobs.
Radar "Required" or "Optional" for Great Loop?
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I've actually been close to run down many more times by commercial boats than pleasure. Usually fishing boats in the 30 - 180' range. A significant percentage of which do not show up on a small radar set no matter how you twiddle the knobs.
It would appear you aren't overly familiar with radar if you can't get a target from a 30 to 180' boat. USCG statistics also don't support your first contention although that may indeed be your personal experience. I apologize for my interest in safety.
Totally agree. Fishing boats are high risk. They rarely call, will run right by and wake you.
They will often go out before sunrise without lights. Ever been caught in the scramble of a fishing tournament? Nightmare!
Another high risk is the Saturday/Sunday afternoon crowd. They hang out at a sand bar all day exchanging their blood for alcohol and find the need to get home at high speed, right at dusk, or later.
This sounds more like you're referencing sport fishing boats, although there are certainly plenty of small commercial boats that create problems. Here in Maine there are a few lobstermen that at times appear clueless. The vast majority of my experience is on larger offshore vessels such as trawlers and supply boats where most times licenses and training are required.
O C Diver
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That's really misleading. Far more than half of sport fishing boats are just recreational boaters. For a sportfishing boat to be commercial, it needs to be run as a charter boat with a licensed captain. Doubt you will find many charter boats with licensed captains running as you described.
Ted
It's unfortunate that the concept of keeping a proper lookout and the safe and effective use of common marine electronics have eluded you. I would be happy to clarify some of the basics for you or suggest a number of books and publications that illustrate most of the skills.
Ted,
You're absolutely right. We should have said "fishing boats" not commercial boats. My apology. The licensed captains are clearly a cut above, and these are the guys that I typically get training from.
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Wow, guess we've drifted from the OPs original post. Getting back to the radar, now.....
ranger58sb
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Interesting ranking. Using that as a springboard...
I suspect a recreational user's ranking is (should be?) influenced by regional issues. For us, here, the AIS is useful but no way no how ever gonna be more useful than radar... simply because most boats around here (I usually guess about 98-99%) don't transmit AIS. OTOH, in a busy river with tugs, tows, barges... yep, I can see AIS trumping radar, at least in good daylight weather. And AIS was useful on the AICW for arranging passes, etc.
FWIW, and for Boilermaker's benefit (YMMV), these days I'd probably rank stuff like this:
Depth finder
VHF (DSC, with GPS source)
Chartplotter (with GPS)
Autopilot
Radar
AIS
Redundant depth finder (we use a fish finder for this)
Redundant VHF (DSC, with GPS source)
Back-up plotter/GPS (laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc.)
Some of that ranking is pretty fluid, even in my own mind, though. A decent nav app on a tablet is so cheap, in the grand scheme of things, that it could very likely happen before AIS bubbles to the top of somebody's wallet... or a back-up VHF might not have to be fitted and a handheld VHF (for example) doesn't really cost an arm or a leg, so ditto...
And it incorporates my own preferences, too, biased by conditions in our normal cruising grounds... and without strict regard to whether Loop- or AICW-related. (or elsewhere).
And the wallet gets a vote. Making a choice between actually going cruising... or spending that cruise money on an AIS earlier rather than later... hmmm....
I think if I were buying another boat today, I'd concentrate my shopping more on the boat, less on the electronics. Fitted electronics might eventually become a tie-breaker, but I'd also assume that whatever's there may or may not be useful in the long run, may or may not be networked (a nice to have), may or may not allow flexibility for growth, etc etc etc...
So I'd plan on using whatever's there for a while, maybe a year or so, while studying what I'd really like to have. Then do that shopping and eventually... get 'er done. Even if the installation phase has to be incremental from that point.
-Chris
Slow Hand, I liked your canal pics, my mother still lives in Spencerport, NY and we used to farm right up to the towpath. I remember well planting corn while a tug and barge went by appearing as though we were sharing the same field.
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I would like to suggest that a radar training course may be of some utility. I go to Maine Maritime for my five year renewals and they have a wonderful radar lab as I assume many other schools do also. An alternative may be to find someone with that training and experience to get some advice from. Just buying and installing equipment is only half of the issue.
O C Diver
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Thanks!
Really wished I'd kept the blog up on my trip, but doing the loop solo and then spending evenings posting just proved to be too much.
I stopped in Spencerport on the afternoon of their Firemen's parade and carnival. Truly an amazing afternoon / evening! Had no idea how big the parade would be with all the surrounding towns participating. Heartland small town America at its very best! Would go back for the parade and the Texas Bar-B-Que Joint, excellent brisket!
Really enjoyed going through the fields and orchards. In many parts of that area, the canal is above the fields. Very picturesque with the farm fields and all the wildflowers blooming. Not very often that you can cruise in your boat and smell wildflowers as you motor along.
Ted
Ted... Fish...
Absolutely agree on the TX BBQ. It's the second best behind Coopers in Llano Tx.
The S'port firemen have quite the set up for chicken BBQ as well. We were there for Canal days 2018.
Absolutely agree on the TX BBQ. It's the second best behind Coopers in Llano Tx.
The S'port firemen have quite the set up for chicken BBQ as well. We were there for Canal days 2018.
Thank you,
It is a pleasant trip, I hope to do the Saguenay soon. Many years ago I briefly ran a dinner boat out of Spencerport and had the unusual experience of being pulled over by the Monroe County Sheriff for exceeding noise limits at night, it was a Karaoke cruise. He pulled up on the towpath with his flashing lights on and hailed me with his PA. I like your boat, I wish health would allow me such a nice ride but 26' is more my speed these days. Jim
I agree with this except for the radar part (you should be able to tune your radar - if precisely tuned you can pick up pot markers/buoys - not easy but possible). I only run radar in limited visibility conditions (fog, dusk, dawn, night, storms, sea state that does not allow me to clearly see from lower helm if in lower helm, etc). Need to keep a proper lookout and situational awareness. I can see 360 degrees from my upper helm and almost a full 360 from my lower helm.
Let me preface the below comments on that I traveled 4,000 miles this year, passed thousands of boats, and there were no issues most of the time.
When there were issues, it seemed that commercial fishing boats were the issue most of the time there was an issue. No regard for right of way or anything. They think they own the waters. Second to that was large yacht owners that thought its OK to run cruise/WOT in a channel or no wake zone within feet of another vessel. My dog almost got ejected from the fly bridge this summer by a 100 foot yacht running 25 knots in a small-ish channel and then it happened a week later in a no wake zone with a 50+ foot yacht running 25-30 knots within 15 feet of my vessel (I actually got the owner's info from the documentation website and was thinking of writing them a letter!).
I was taught to slow down for EVERY passing boat unless your wake will not cause harm, you agree on radio not to slow down, etc. People are a lot more courteous down south. Up North there is little to no respect or regard for navigational rules. Good luck trying to hail a boat via VHF that you see coming right at you or throwing a huge wake. 9.9 times out of 10 they will not respond and continue on-ward. This is true for large commercial boats, yachts, smaller boats, etc. Down south it was the opposite and 9.9 times out of 10 someone would respond via radio (or hail me first). There was a large commercial ferry in NYC coming straight at me, in a skinny-ish channel, on the wrong side of the channel, did not respond to vhf, my horn, etc, until they were right in front of me and finally realized they need to move (I had pulled all the way off to the side as far as I could go without running aground). Down south there was an interesting interaction after a bridge opening. There were probably 2 dozen boats in queue (bridge opened on a schedule), once we made it through the bridge, a few of us faster boats wanted to pass some slower boats. We all tried hailing these two boats in the way multiple times, on multiple channels, tried the horn, etc. They were running 7-10mph in the middle of the channel. After about 20 minutes trying to pass them, we each started making our way around the slow boats. Going ~15 mph. Well, for many boats, 15 mph is not a sweet spot and will throw a wake. We had no choice and then they finally got on the radio screaming and cursing but we all said we've been trying to hail you for 20 minutes to pass, tried our horns, etc. They were not keeping a proper lookout and for most of us we had another 6-8 hours of cruising left to make it to our destination and going half our cruising speed would not have worked.
I thought it was funny when I was running in a water way that was 1+ miles wide and I'd get a call from someone freaking out that I was going too fast (not a no wake zone) and they would be calling from a dock. Only happened a few times but I know how my wake is at different speeds and how much room I need for it to fizzle out. If I had slowed down I would've thrown a huge wake. By the time my wake made it to the docks/shore, there was no energy left. I was very lucky that many had their docks stored for winter as I made my way north which allowed me to go faster in some areas I would've had to slow down if there was a boat / dock in the water. I can only imagine how much longer my trip would've taken via the ICW in summer when you factor in having to pass a ton more boats...
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You need to do more than "twiddle knobs". Radar is a complicated tool and requires a solid understanding of STC, FTC, Tune and Gain to make it perform at it's best. On top of that one must also learn to interpret what is on the screen.
My radar/ARPA/MARPA course almost 25yrs ago was 11 weeks and it took every one of those weeks to feel comfortable with it. A quick look through the Users Manual is not going to make you proficient.
I never said they shouldn't be on. Simply said whether that was held as a problem in an accident depends on the nature of the accident. Running into something, it would be unless that was caused by failure of mechanical systems or something. Getting run into it may or may not. If you saw the other ship and contacted them and they came on into you, then lack of radar would be irrelevant.
In the recreational world it would be the same. Most accidents are not caused by lack of radar being on. Some are. Recreational world is what this site discusses.
Codger2
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I always have my radar on & practice with it constantly. Why? As posted by another TF member who said his radar sees around bends, mine doesn't! I kinda depend on my AIS transceiver for that.
When cruising just for fun in a unknown area, this is what I'm looking at on my panel. Radar, chart & depth. if something looks strange, I look at it on a full screen. As was posted earlier, it makes a great rear view mirror as well!
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Believe me I wish this were true. I actually thought it was at one point. I watched as the NYC ferries (dozens of them) did not consistently use radar. I'd say 50/50. I actually questioned the ferry company and they came back and said there is no requirement to run radar when conditions are clear and its up to each individual captain. It was funny because I saw them running without radar in some foggy conditions and when there was terrible sun glare when anyone with common sense would want to run it. As a side note, these captains also have a habit of going full throttle to dock, then reverse hard to slow impact, which is a terrible idea as you should not approach something faster than you want to hit it. Yes they had strong currents to content with but I was actually on a boat where it took TEN tries for the captain to dock. I was about to go to the wheelhouse and offer some guidance. They also have run aground a few times... in areas that are clearly plotted as dangerous... You think some more care would be given because of the potentially hundreds of souls on-board but no. Now one company's boats are falling apart. I think some major corrosion issues. They had to take so many boats out of service they ended up having to pay other ferry companies to come in and run boats in place. Interesting enough, I saw one of the ferries all the way down in NOLA at a shipyard. No clue if it was going to be crushed or what but it had only been in service for a couple of years...
Here was the ferry company's initial response:
And then their official response once I raised a few red flags and called them out to explain "other radar systems":
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psneeld
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Well, as a commercial captain, especially in the last decade and dealing with hundreds of commercial captains.... I have never heard that.
Commercial fishermen I installed electronics for and amfriends with would never have given up their Lorans or GPS because of pinpointing spots.
They may love their radars too... but not as a primary nav tool.
Commercial fishermen I installed electronics for and amfriends with would never have given up their Lorans or GPS because of pinpointing spots.
They may love their radars too... but not as a primary nav tool.
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One place we all fall victim is in lumping commercial boats and captains. There's a huge difference between a commercial fishing captain with a Sportfishing boat and a tug captain on the Mississippi and an ocean liner transiting from China to Miami.
I was referencing smaller commercial fishing boats 25-50' (not sportfish) and ferry captains.
For the most part, my experience is large ship captains are diligent, communicate well, and have respect. There were a few on my long trip though that were not paying good attention and almost ran me aground on the ICW but, again, out of probably the 2-300 I passed on that leg, it was only a few.
You'd be surprised how proficient I am at tweaking radar. And my extensive use of modern marine electronics. They are not a substitute for looking out the window, nor insurance against collision. They are merely another tool - seamanship and collision avoidance isn't a video game.
There are small fishing boats (and yachts) that do not produce a reliable return on a small dome radar, even at fairly close range, even in flat calm conditions. In nasty conditions with rain and sea clutter, even fairly large targets are not identifiable as such. This isn't just me, it is also the conclusion of several CG and MAIB investigations into fatal collisions at sea. See for example the MAIB report on the sinking of the Ouzo, run down by a ro-ro passenger ferry in a moderate sea state. Conclusion was the yacht was invisible on both high power X and S band, operating properly with a vigilant trained and licensed crew. This is one of several such investigations. As a result of these sorts of investigations, on the sailboat I carry an active radar transponder that produces a return on both X and S band similar to a 30,000 ton ship.
I've navigated the length of Down East Maine in heavy fog, about 1/3 of the lobster boats encountered left no radar return ever, or not until very close (when you could hear and see them). Yes I adjusted the knobs. I've similarly done that in anchorages and on passages in broad daylight to see what paints and what does not.
Some lobster boats in Maine were rude in their passing, but at least someone was driving them while they were moving. Twice on the Nova Scotia coast I had to alter course to keep from being run down by 150' steel trawlers. They did not respond to hails, and binoculars confirmed an empty bridge. These were not sport fishermen, and their radar was of little use to them.
Riverguy
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In 40 years of boating on inland river waterways (upper mississippi and upstate NY), I never felt the need to have radar.
However, during a recent 1,200 mile run on the eastern ICW over a span of five weeks, there were at least three times we were >>extremely<< glad we had the radar, and avoided one near collision. In addition, there were a number of days when we'd have been stuck in port, unable to leave in time to make our next destination due to morning fog in the forecast.
Bottom line, I can't imagine doing any extended near-coastal cruising without radar.
If price is the obstacle, you can pick up an older used unit on Ebay for under $1,000.
Avoiding one near collision is justification for a lifetime of radar. If one never needs it, then that's great and fortunate. However, it's that one time or those three times that it pays it's way. It's that one time I glance quickly at the radar and see something up ahead I need to be aware of. If it helps me avoid one collision over the course of my boating life, then I'll use it.
My post about my open aray radar antenna seeing around corners was on the snaky sections of the TomTenn waterway. I guess the low shore elevation and folage allows my 18’ antenna height to pickup a 75’ wide 200’+ long lump of tow and steel barges. It usually gave me enough warning to get on the one or two passing side before eyeball and vhf contact.
I’m assuming it works to a smaller degree like weather radar antennas placed on top of high elevations.
Sadly my old Furuno radar had to be replaced, haven’t had a chance to see if the new Furuno with the round antenna design will be as good as the open aray down the TomTenn. I do like that it gives a contact direction indication and even show wake indications from channel navigation markers. Amazing advances in features from my twenty year old radar.
I’m assuming it works to a smaller degree like weather radar antennas placed on top of high elevations.
Sadly my old Furuno radar had to be replaced, haven’t had a chance to see if the new Furuno with the round antenna design will be as good as the open aray down the TomTenn. I do like that it gives a contact direction indication and even show wake indications from channel navigation markers. Amazing advances in features from my twenty year old radar.
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As I'm sure you noticed I suggested training but most boaters seem to think if you can turn something on successfully the rest is easy. I had a 1600 ton master ocean, 3000ton fishing vessel master oceans license, radar, ARPA, GMDSS and a slew of safety training and forty five years of working primarily offshore and while I'm no genius or god of the sea I have seem a lot and in my opinion someone "driving" a boat while letting a chart plotter do the navigation is a formula for trouble. You and I are out there too and I take operating a boat very seriously and I would hope others did as well.
Fish,
No doubt you've had a fair amount of experience and certainly a lot of good training. I'll always take a suggestion for additional training.
Have never taken a marine radar specific course but sure would mind getting a recommendation. The one you go to up in the new England area is just to far away, however.
Also, I've been to a few aviation radar courses with the best... Archie Trammel and Dave Gwinn that absolute best in aviation radar. And even though the radars are for entirely different missions, the concept is much the same.
As for letting a chart plotter do the navigation, I'm guilty. That's what the heck I bought it for! I'll often do an auto route and couple it to the autopilot. It's actually safer using it than not. Frees me to just monitor it and pay attention to other things. On my recent Loop trip, I've found it extremely accurate. I'd bet you guys do similar in the commercial operations, too.
HiDHo,
You're right, your radar was painting over the ground and picked up the top of the tow. Mine would do the same occasionally, but found the ground clutter too confusing to be useful. Once the guy came around the corner, they could easily be seen, radar or eyeballs. The radar just does NOT curve around corners.
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