Radar "Required" or "Optional" for Great Loop?

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CatalinaJack,
Could you elaborate on your comment regarding AIS being for seeing around the curves on a river? My former VHF radio(s) pre-dated AIS, and though I've read a little about it, I don't fully understand its use. Would other boats with AIS automatically show up on your GPS chartplotter? Is AIS required on all boats, or only on commercial boats? If not required on all pleasurecraft, what percentage of pleasurecraft have AIS-enabled VHF radios? What's the risk that you wouldn't be aware of a non-AIS-equipped boat approaching your location?
 
catalinajack said:
I'm guessing that, to get from Carrabelle on the Florida Panhandle to Tarpon Springs, you travelled only in daylight using the Carrabelle-Steinhatchee-Crystal River-Tarpon Springs route, and not the 170-mile overnight route directly to Tarpon Springs from Carrabelle. For those - you would not have been - concerned with their boat's deeper draft, the choice is almost always the 24-hour overnighter. I assure you, having radar aboard was useful and a great comfort.

Although most who make the crossing don't encounter much of anything overnight, twice we had boats cross our path about one-half mile in front of us. Given that, at the time, we were pitching significantly, sometimes violently, there would have been a good chance that we would not have picked up their running lights. Standing at the lower helm it was all I could do just to hang on never mind trying to discern running lights from the lower helm station through the dark and wet windshield. Being able to sit down and simply monitor the radar screen was the best I could do. It worked. Those two boats appeared as big, obvious targets moving across our bow.

We are in Fort Myers now having started our Loop last May from Annapolis.
That nighttime crossing was the only time we needed and used the radar but we were sure glad we had it that night. That said, a 32-foot sailboat left Carrabelle at the same time, no radar. For a time, earlier in the night before the heavy seas began, we could see his running lights about 2 miles off but he did not appear on our radar. He obviously did not reflect radio waves being small, low profile, and having no radar reflector. Very risky in my opinion.

If my guess was incorrect then, well, my experience is my experience and is offered as another data point. My wife was frightened that night. I was not but I was concerned, aware, and vigilant. If you had been out there that night in your C-Dory, it would not have been pleasant. As it was, even in our stabilized DeFever 44 weighing 54,000 pounds, it was a rough crossing. Having radar removed one very big concern from the overall.
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No, we waited for a weather window and did it at 25 knots from Appalachicola to Tarpon Springs, tucked the boat into a slip and walked into town for a nice dinner. Thankfully it was a beautiful, smooth uneventful crossing. For us waiting on weather and making the big crossings in good conditions equaled no drama and comfortable trips, but speed let us shorten our travel times.
Eric
 
Thanks for differentiating between older magnetron technology radar versus newer digital radar -- very helpful comments.
Based upon your recent experience, how much would you suggest I budget for a radar, if the boat I purchase doesn't have one?
Peace and blessings,
Larry
 
CatalinaJack, your comments helped me understand the options/choices available for crossing the Gulf, along the coast from port to port or offshore directly across open water, and in daylight versus overnight. I wonder how long boaters typically have to wait for a good weather window to make the offshore crossing in smooth conditions.
I won't share your story about the rough crossing with my wife -- she's already "anxious" about making a long cruise on a 35' - 40' boat.
Peace and blessings,
Larry
 
I took mine off because it was acting up, bought a replacement and never installed(sitting in spare bedroom).

IMO it's helpful but needed for the loop? Nah.

I'd even want a backup plotter for redundancy at the helm for when it's foggy. Would I depend on GPS over Radar for fog? Yes because like someone else said you have to use it frequently to understand it.

Personally my autopilot is one of the best tools I have to keep me alert and on watch vs constantly steering to go straight. It's all about $$ and the "list" of electronics/comfort devices you want and where Radar would fall.


For me it's towards the bottom but i'm wrong about alot of things.
 
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very little of todays electronics is "required" to boat anywhere.
It all depends on what you want and are willing to pay for. All the electronic stuff is helpful but not required, IMO.
 
Boilermaker75, cost about $1600 two years ago, defender.com had the best deal at the time. DIY easy, I did have the old mast mount. :)
 

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I'd even want a backup plotter for redundancy at the helm for when it's foggy. Would I depend on GPS over Radar for fog? Yes because like someone else said you have to use it frequently to understand it.
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...wow, I mean just... wow.

They boat among us!
 
Boilermaker75 said:
Thanks for differentiating between older magnetron technology radar versus newer digital radar -- very helpful comments.
Based upon your recent experience, how much would you suggest I budget for a radar, if the boat I purchase doesn't have one?
Peace and blessings,
Larry
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Hi Larry,

I had to replace our radar while underway heading for Alaska, and had some time constraints, so did not have the opportunity to shop around. Also I chose to get a 12" Raymarine Axiom MFD, including a chartplotter with US and Canada charting, for the radar's display. The existing displays would not support a new radar dome. So not a low-budget purchase.

I didn't research alternative brands much, as I had a bunch of other Ray stuff, and decided to stay and interconnect with that. Cost was around $5,000 US, plus $700 for removal and installation.
 
Can you do the loop without radar? Yes.

Do I want to? No. I have added it to every boat I have owned over 20 ft since 1990.

We have hit dense fog even in SW Florida in the middle of the day.

Surely on a 6600 mile trip you will encounter fog, rain, darkness, check distances, or other vessels approach.
Assuming that you get radar you will need to learn to use it correctly to avoid collision. The operator manual has the very basics needed to BEGIN learning.
It's not a TV for boats.
 
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Boilermaker75 said:
Your comment made me think of contacting electronics dealers/installers about more than just a radar, in case the other electronics on the boat are outdated or nonfunctional. Thanks!
Peace and blessings,
Larry
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Take a look at TF Classifieds - there is frequently (currently) used equip listed - good for budget pricing even if not close / not ready now.
Good luck w/ the boat search.

I've crossed Lk Ontario 15-20 times w/o radar.
I'm in the wait it out crowd if bad Wx anticipated and don't normally travel at night - at least on Great Lakes.
Fog is worst enemy IMHO - summer fog usually radiation fog that burns off mid - late AM. Spring on Great Lakes you can get advection fog (moist air over cold water) that doesn't go away quickly unless wind and/or air masses change which can take days.

Gulf is a different story and no experience there
 
The cost of radar will depend on what brand chartplotter, what age, who installs, and what you want out of it. For an older chart plotter, the minimum dome can be had for $500 on eBay. For a new chartplotter, $1300 - $1800 for current technology digital small dome, sky's the limit on the high end. Plus installation, but that is pretty trivial on the newest WiFi connected ones.

In the context of purchasing a trawler and doing the loop, this is pocket change, and should not even be a consideration in what boat you buy.
 
I operated commercial assistance vessels on Lake Michigan for years. Fog can suddenly pop up very thick. I would not even consider boating without radar. You can get a reasonably effective set for $1500. I have a new Garmin set and the new technology is really impressive. Good navigation practices use multiple data sources to confirm/cross check each other. Compare/contrasting radar, GPS, AIS, MARPA, visual and sonar are my main everyday navigation tools, not just when it’s foggy. My wife now tells me how close boats are and what the closest point of approach is and I don’t have to wake up for a traffic checks when I’m off watch.
 
One boat cruising in the fog without radar is a danger to itself and others. Multiple boats cruising in the fog without radar is a potential disaster.
 
catalinajack said:
For much of the Loop? I disagree. Our experience was much different. In fact we did not have to lower anything except for two bridges. We are on a DeFever 44.
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As I said, depends on the boat. You clearly have a lower air draft than we did. As I recall, teh NY canal system is 21' for teh main route, and gets down to either 17 or 19 for some of the alternate routes. And the Chicago bridge is what, 17'? I haven't been through that part, just NY and Canada (Rideau).
 
Mrwesson, you're not the first or only person to suggest that an autopilot should be a much higher priority than radar -- hopefully, I can find a boat (or retrofit it) with both!
Peace and blessings,
Larry
 
I’ve been on the rivers, upper mis and Illinois, the lakes to Detroit without radar and with. Radar is a safety requirement imho if you’re going to be out at night and that can happen if you get held up at locks waiting on a tow. Closures on the river for one reason or another can cause after dark running to get past instead of waiting the next day for it to open. AIS shows the tows your location and you theirs but it won’t show the barges in the fleeting areas with no lights. Fog on Lake Michigan I’ve seen last all day, on the river it is usually burnt off mid morning. I ran radar after mounting it every time I went out to better understand what I was seeing on the display, I have a 4kw Si-Tex open array with a 12” Standard Horizon display at each helm along with a 7” on the flybridge. If I was buying new I would go with Furuno or Si-Tex either of which can had pretty reasonable.
 
Thanks, River Cruiser, for sharing your experience with me; it seems like an AIS-enabled VHF radio is a "must have" but augmenting that with a radar would be highly recommended.
Peace and blessings,
Larry
 
Boilermaker75 said:
Thanks, River Cruiser, for sharing your experience with me; it seems like an AIS-enabled VHF radio is a "must have" but augmenting that with a radar would be highly recommended.
Peace and blessings,
Larry
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If it were me, I'd get a separate AIS transceiver that transmits your position, course, speed, and boat name to others, in addition to receiving that info from others. VHF radios w/ AIS are receive only, AFAIK.

Mine is a Vesper XB-6000, $489 from Milltech Marine. Plugs into laptop with chartplotter SW via USB. The XB-6000 also provides GPS position data needed by the laptop chartplotter, via the same USB connection.
 
Boilermaker75 said:
When searching for a 38' - 40' trawler-style boat to do the America's Great Loop on, how important is radar (assuming the boat has GPS ChartPlotter)?

Do any YF members who have done the Great Loop consider radar to be "required?" Or is it just a "nice to have" "optional" piece of navigation equipment?

Thanks,

Peace and blessings,

Larry Buchman
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Required. On coastal waters, required. On the Great Lakes, required. Other areas, preferred by serious boaters.

In one year on the loop, you will have occasion to find yourself in some pretty bad weather along the way. Perhaps not often, but it will happen. Perhaps on Lake Erie, a storm will come up quickly as you go from Buffalo to Erie. You've never been there before, you can't see, anchorages are few. You may only need the radar once or twice on the entire trip, but those times it will be critical.

We use our radars all the time. However, the reality is because we cruise during the day and good conditions, we could get by without it most of the time. We'd prefer not to. But it's not "most of the time" when it's critical. It's that other 5%. We often say to choose and equip a boat for the 90% use, but that's not true when it comes to safety equipment. That's when you equip for the other 5-10%.
 
Cruising between Superior and Bahamas since 1994. Three things I would not do without.
Heat, autopilot, radar.

I did the first 15yrs. without chart plotter, AIS, cell phone, Active Captain, Aquamap or SPOT. I could still make do without them. You must find your own comfort level.
 
Boilermaker75 said:
Thanks, River Cruiser, for sharing your experience with me; it seems like an AIS-enabled VHF radio is a "must have" but augmenting that with a radar would be highly recommended.
Peace and blessings,
Larry
Click to expand...



I started with a Standard Horizon AIS receive only and it was a great addition for information on the tows and cruise boats. When I started being out more often after dark was when I decided a transponder was important. I anchor below sandbars, islands and in sloughs, I'am out of the channel but near enough I want to be sure they know I'am there before they see my anchor light.
 
Modern integrated systems are here so why not have radar along with the others? But if I were choosing between GPS, AIS and radar I would take radar. Collision avoidance is your legal and moral responsibility.

I get to be the grump in bunch and we just had a discussion about "rude". If you NEED any electronics you should do without while you learn. You don't need GPS to follow a ditch. This ain't a video game. If you want it to be a video game, they can be enjoyed in your mama's basement, stay home.


I wonder if the electronics hide the appeal of boating for some people. They look at it and think, "I can stay home and do that". Get out in the wind and get some spray in your face.


/end grumpiness

https://www.bts.gov/content/recreational-boating-accidents
 
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drb1025 said:
One boat cruising in the fog without radar is a danger to itself and others. Multiple boats cruising in the fog without radar is a potential disaster.
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Let's not scare everyone now..

What you describe happens all the time... often with no consequences and usually just close calls

Its because of poor judgement, not just the lack of radar.

While I do recommend radar, it often takes the typical boater years of practice to where it's truly a safety feature and not just another distraction
 
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twistedtree said:
As I said, depends on the boat. You clearly have a lower air draft than we did. As I recall, teh NY canal system is 21' for teh main route, and gets down to either 17 or 19 for some of the alternate routes. And the Chicago bridge is what, 17'? I haven't been through that part, just NY and Canada (Rideau).
Click to expand...
DeFever 44 with an 18 foot air draft. Did the Champlain route, lowered the arch and bimini for one bridge to get to Chambly Canal. Rideau and Trent-Severn had at least 22-foot clearances. We chose the Cal-Sag Canal to avoid having to lower the arch again. We travelled with lots of other trawlers who transited safely.
 
Boilermaker75 said:
Mrwesson, you're not the first or only person to suggest that an autopilot should be a much higher priority than radar -- hopefully, I can find a boat (or retrofit it) with both!
Peace and blessings,
Larry
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I can't imagine having to hand steer our DeFever 44 for 24 straight hours making the Gulf crossing especially in the very difficult sea conditions we unexpectedly encountered. Radar also a must for reasons I and many others have stated. To me taking chances with my safety and the safety of others is not worth the boat bucks saved.
 
caltexflanc said:
...wow, I mean just... wow.

They boat among us!
Click to expand...

There's the internet and what happens on the water regularly.

At least i'm honest in that my radar is a tool that I don't fully understand but was working on it(before I removed it/failed/replaced but not reinstalled). I've been in the fog a few times locally and it's been very much a non issue using every other tool available to me.

Relying on radar that you don't fully understand to map your surroundings would be not only stupid but i'd go as far as to say it's better if you'd thrown it over.

But judge away.
 
When you think of how little a radar costs compared to the total cost of your loop trip, It doesn't make sense to me to not have it. I would seriously hate to be in a tough spot and think..."hmm...I should have gotten the radar...."
 
We have used the radar more than we thought. Crossing Georgian Bay we encountered fog on the lake. In North Carolina we transited the Pungo canal by radar and crossing the Gulf of Mexico we used it all night. I do run with radar overlayed on one screen of the plotter often.
I used our AIS daily, so I would strongly recommend an AIS transceiver.
 
Thanks for the great AIS transceiver suggestion, RCook; I didn't realize VHF radios w/ AIR were receive-only. I have a spare laptop PC I could dedicate to navigation w/ the AIS transceiver. What Windows 10 OS apps do you suggest for navigation purposes on the laptop PC? Does the laptop PC need to be connected to the Internet for those apps to work?
Peace and blessings,
Larry
 
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