Adding Mast and Sails to Trawler

Hello everyone! Yes, I am new here, and just want to say I really enjoy reading all the awesome questions and answers here on this forum.
O.K. so here goes my first question:
I have been reading many threads concerning adding one or more of the following to a traditional Trawler for purposes of either sail assist, or Sail Steadying; Get Home Sail; Ride Sail; Steadying Sail, and/or Lugger Sail. I do understand the many replies in which it has been pointed out that a trawler just does not have what it takes to truly have a Sail Rig for purely propulsion purposes. namely hull design, Keel, Rudder, nor proper Ballast. But what I was considering is more of a Spinnaker type Sail Rig for running with the wind.
I have a 60 foot Concorde Motor Yacht, 16' Beam and about 60k pounds (loaded and provisioned). Not looking for total sail propulsion via a Spinnaker, but more along the lines of assisting the 8V71tti Detroits to maybe help save some fuel?
Any ideas or even the flat out no way, would be appreciated.
I do hope that everyone had a wonderful Christmas and wish everyone a pleasant stress free (as much as possible) New Year.

I would maybe look at some of the kite sail rigs. I think they could be placed on a trawler relatively easily.

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. I suspect you can buy an awful lot of diesel for the cost of mast and sail.

Most sails are "wings" not "kites", so to be effective the sideways force they exert on the boat must be counteracted by an underwater appendage (keel or centerboard) that generates lift, or form stability (flat wide hull). Adding a sail like this to a trawler is a bad idea without substantial modifications to the boat.

A "kite" sail, like a traditional symmetric spinnaker, should be fine to use on a trawler in light winds as far as the hull is concerned. However, a sail like this puts extreme loads on the "rigging", of which a trawler has none. Adding rigging to handle a sail like this is probably extremely expensive, but your local rigger could give you a price quote. Any competent rigger should be able to make the modifications.

Adding Spinnaker Rig to Trawler Suggestions

Thank you guys for the fast replies to my question concerning adding a Spinnaker Rig to my Trawler.
RT Firefly, Yup you are right about cost of Spinnaker Rig v/s cost of Diesel Fuel, however does the cost only concern Diesel fuel?, I mean if I am not in a hurry, which I am not, could the cost be somewhat offset by reduction in running the Detroits? Also, while I am not the typical Tree Hugger kinda guy, I am concerned about all the pollution from the big Detroits. I know, I know someone will say then just get a sailboat, and yeah that is true, and I really love Sailboats, but the 60' Trawler has so much more living space, it truly is like a house with a mobile address. BTW, RT Firefly, I am also considering removing the Detroits and replacing them with Tesla Electric Motors (A subject for another thread).
D Hays, Yes! when I read your comment I instantly thought of a Parasail type set up that could lead the Yacht by maybe 50 yards or so, and in light to low moderate winds heading in the same direction I wish to go, just might fit the bill.
Rain Dog, RIGHT! great answer and advice. Yes, I can reach out to a Rigger to get some input into this. Yeah, I was watching a motorsailer flying a large Spinnaker and she was really moving along at a nice clip! I believe it was a 53' Gulfstar motorsailer, her main was 2/3 reefed, but she was moving!
So, thank all you for your help! I will post some pictures of my Boat soon, as she is currently on the hard, getting bottom job, and topsides restoration and painting work performed.
Thanks Again!

I'm with RT on this,nix the sail idea and buy a Motor sailor. I wouldn't bastardize that boat with sails or electric power. I'd sell it and buy a single screw M/s with the room you desire. With or without electric propulsion. Since your still going to need a genset engine, why not an efficient diesel propulsion engine and solar/inverter power for ac loads?

Greetings,
Mr. La. "...cost be somewhat offset...? Sure but it may take you 432 years to realize the break even point. I think you're trying to make a pig's ear out of a silk purse.


Pretty well the same deal with Tesla motor replacement but it may only take 196 years (you could sell the DD's and recoup some of the expense) to "break even".



Sorry to be so blunt but as many have said, fuel is a small expense in the greater scheme of boat ownership as you will most probably find out once you get the bill for your bottom and restoration work.


There is another alternative BUT it might take a substantial crew...

For all the reasons offered, a kite sail may be your most viable option. There are a handful of companies offering these systems, I would suggest not trying to re-invent the wheel. This is one of them:

Kitecontroller for motor boats

LaVolta said:

D Hays, Yes! when I read your comment I instantly thought of a Parasail type set up that could lead the Yacht by maybe 50 yards or so, and in light to low moderate winds heading in the same direction I wish to go, just might fit the bill.

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The boat we just sold had a tall mast and steadying sail. It was a 1981 and none of the 4 owners ever hoisted the sail, it was still new in the bag. I in fact cut the mast down since I was unable to get under many fixed bridges. I’m in Jack’s camp, if you want a motorsailer buy one that is designed for that purpose.

RT Firefly said:

Sorry to be so blunt but as many have said, fuel is a small expense in the greater scheme of boat ownership as you will most probably find out once you get the bill for your bottom and restoration work.

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^^^ Dose of boat wisdom.

Someone here has a sig line that says something like: You don't know it yet but everything on your boat is broken.


Cherish the times when fuel costs are your biggest problem.


The sail idea is a good one. Thanks for a good thread.

You could use a kite sail, but it will never pay for itself at current diesel prices. That is, if it is used, it will require replacement before its cost is made up by diesel savings. This isn't true just of a kite sail, but sails in general. A set of sails for my sailboat (main and mizzen only) is around $30K today. They will be good for about 30,000 miles if well treated. The main propulsion engine was $10K, and fuel for 30,000 miles costs about $18K @ $3/gal. So the sails alone are more expensive than the diesel and fuel to run it.

Buy a sailboat to sail, or because it can go many places a trawler cannot, not to save money.

If you want to add a few hp with sail, find out how much hp you get per sq ft of sail, at various amounts of apparent wind. Google probably has that answer, though I haven't looked.
I do know that on my first few boats, the sail needed was substantial, and all I was trying to drive was a few thousand lbs of properly designed sail boat. To get enough drive to take the load off of your DDs will take lots and lots of sail area. To add that to your old boat will take lots and lots and lots of $. have fun.

RE: Adding Spinnaker Rig to Trawler Suggestions

Hello Everyone!, Wow, I love this Forum! so many awesome responses, and all of you have great advice!
This reply is directed to you all and BTW, RTF that Gif you attached was priceless! when I saw that I almost laughed so hard beer came out of my ears and my nose! Then I saw me in that Gif, I'm the slug three rows back of Mr. Heston!
O.K. so, I did speak with an old salt who is from South Africa and he is a Boat Builder, he has 2 trawlers being built in his yard as I write this response. He flat out told me....NO! to a Spinnaker for a Trawler, but he did say this " A Spinnaker will pull the bow down on a semi-displacement hull which would make the vessel almost uncontrollable, however you could still use a type of 'Chute' that leads the vessel by about 30-50 yards and would be positioned only about 20 degrees above the bow, so the chute will 'Pull' the vessel in light to low moderate winds" and then he went on " I can design the Rig for you and the cost will be in the low to mid $40's". I choked right then and there! I said "Do you mean Dollars?" he laughed and told me to forget it, but he was interested in the Hybrid Diesel Electric idea, because he said "Why not? Modern Cruise ships and the military are using hybrid Diesel Electric".
Anyway everybody and Moderator, I am guessing I'll have to start a new thread about the Hybrid Diesel Electric Idea, but just for this once please allow me to elaborate just a few more lines to this response o.k.
There are multiple reasons for the switch to Diesel Electric.
1. The DD 8V71tti's in the boat now generate about 460 H.P. and at 12-14 Kts, they burn about 25 gallons of fuel per hour, at W.O.T. they will guzzle about 40 GPH!
2. The DD's are very LOUD, and they smell,.... o.k., they actually stink.
3. The Tesla's can develop about 900 H.P. and about 950 Lb. Ft. of Torque (Last Dyno Test of Tesla Model X).
4. The Tesla's are nearly SILENT, and they do not stink.
5. The DD's that I have only have about 1700 hours on them and they run excellent, so yeah, I have been offered $15k for them and the 2:1 running gears.
6. I can buy wrecked Teslas from the Insurance sales auction for about 7k each (depending on amount of damage) which I will harvest the Motors AND the High Voltage Batteries from.
7. I have already converted a 32' cabin cruiser to electric using 2 Nissan Leaf motors, and Lithium batteries from wrecked Chevy Volts.
8. I have my own design electric motor controller that can control 2 motors, one CW the other CCW, no issue there, I wrote the software to maximize for Marine use.
9. The DD's require maintenance, oil, filters, diesel fuel, ect, ect, ect,
10. The Teslas are virtually maintenance free when used in a boat because do not need the 140 various sensors required for automobile use (No seat belts in a boat).
11. Oh btw, I also have converted a small SeaDoo Speedster to a 210 HP Nissan Leaf Motor and it runs great, AND Quiet, you can actually talk to each other while running....
most obviously the SeaDoo only weighs in at about 1200 pounds, the 32' only weighs in (with the Gasoline 454's removed) at about 8500 pounds, but the 60' Trawler weighs in at about 60k pounds so, yeah much much heavier.
The MAIN reason I wanted to try this with the large Trawler is the space available, not only living space but the mechanical space savings would be huge. The DD's are huge engines, and weigh in at a couple tons each easy, while the Teslas are small, and weigh in only at about 160 pounds each.
The boat also has 2ea. 500 gallon fuel tanks to feed the DD's, but by going Hybrid, I only need the fuel tank for the 20kw generator.
By removing the DD's and the huge fuel tanks I would have room for my ultimate idea! Are you Ready for this?
Gold Dredging equipment in the extra space!.......Yup that is the ultimate goal, turn the Pleasure Craft Trawler into a covert Gold Dredging machine!...
with the electric motors, I get quiet, and a virtually non-polluting boat and plenty of space to build out the dredging equipment and pumps.
So, there it is, all in a nut shell, so it's not just the cost of fuel, it's the total package that is important to me....O.K. so now all my new friends can tell me i'm bat crude crazy!!! hahahaha.
Moderator, I will start 2 more threads if it is o.k. 1 to do more with Hybrid Electric Propulsion and the other about mounting a gold dredging rig on a pleasure craft if it is o.k. with you?
Thank You Everybody!

Lots of good ideas, LaVolta. No - a sail won’t pay for itself on a boat. Neither will an electric motor. In fact - I can’t think of a single item on a boat that pays for itself. Yet we still get lots of enjoyment out of them.
Have fun!

RE: Adding Spinnaker Rig to Trawler Suggestions

AusCan, Yup I have to agree that not any 'single' item on a boat may in fact pay for itself, but can we put a price tag on enjoyment? Hmmmm the other day I was kinda sad, so I went and spent $4.58 on a Happy Meal at Mc D's, at first I was not that Happy about it, but then caught myself playing with the toy for twenty minutes.......was I not Entertained?
Oh, I can think of 1 thing that can actually pay for itself....my life jacket....Ha.

What kind of range do you think you will get with the Tesla motors?

Unfortunately, the First Law of Thermodynamics is still in force, energy has to come from somewhere. This is why electric boats haven't caught on, except for something to tool around the harbor in.

I know there are a lot of former sailors here....

I dont see a kite or any downwind sail working worth a hoot for most cruisers.

Unless doinng all offshore legs or ocean cruising.... how much use will it really get?

Most sailors admit to motoring most of the time while coastal cruising...if they want to get anywhere. You would need a lot of sail to get ANY assist running downwind ....as most running downwind, you need enough wind to keep the apoarent wind high enough to keep the sail from being a PIA.

If there is that much wind continuously from astern, are the conditions such you want to be running downwind offshore? If nice enough, do you want to go slow enough to get assist from the sail without it collapsing all the time?

Me, while I love the miserly fuel burn at 6.3 knots of my boat, I wish I could get more knots more often than not.

Go sail if you want to sail or at least motorsailer....there is a reason for totally different hull designs. Thats why sailboats can motor by me all day long with much smaller engines burning way less fuel. But theres a tradeoff in so many other deireable traits of the motor cruise for coastal cruising.

There are cost/benefit reasons cruise ships can use Diesel Electric effectively, a trawler will not fit into that envelope. There have been many threads here about Diesel Electric, maybe take a look at those for some background.
There is also a segment of the marine industry dedicated to diesel electric, there is a magazine and annual shows in Europe and the US:

https://www.electricandhybridmarineworldexpo.com/en/

The consensus is that unless you have "religion" about hybrid power, or are making a statement, then it's just not quite ready for prime time in pleasure boats. Very close, but not yet.

I sat in on a seminar of where the presenter showed the operational costs of 2 brand new harbor tugs, 1 Hybrid and one conventional. The Hybrid won until you figure in battery replacement cost and then the cost analysis just blew up.

There are Duffy electric boats, Greenline, and a few others. Check out this ferry and see the tight operational envelope and the hoops they had to jump to make this viable.

https://www.workboat.com/news/shipbuilding/alabama-looks-first-u-s-electric-ferry/

In my opinion the reality is for today except for a very limited type of pleasure boat and mission (like maybe a canal boat,) the additional cost, complexity and space do not make Hybrid a valid choice....yet

My $0.02

LaVolta said:

but he was interested in the Hybrid Diesel Electric idea, because he said "Why not? Modern Cruise ships and the military are using hybrid Diesel Electric".
Anyway everybody and Moderator, I am guessing I'll have to start a new thread about the Hybrid Diesel Electric Idea, but just for this once please allow me to elaborate just a few more lines to this response o.k.

Click to expand...

I experimented with this idea on my commercial trawler a number of years ago. As it already had a substantial mast and rigging it was no great difficulty flying a surplus 35 ft. military cargo parachute. My boat weighed 45K light and the parachute did help save fuel on a long run downwind. I intend to add some sort of sail rig to the current boat I'm building.

Having sailed a lot with a spinnaker I don't think you will have enough rudder or hull shape to maintain course

I never tried going downwind without the engine for several reasons, autopilot and electronics primarily. The benefit I derived was the reduction of engine RPM to maintain the same speed, where I usually could steam a 7 kts. @ 1900rpm I could maintain the same speed at 1200rpm.

RE:RE:RE: Adding Spinnaker Rig to Trawler Suggestions

Well all I can say is that ALL the responses have extreme Merit and worthy of consideration.
Just one more thought concerning the Diesel Hybrid set up using Teslas. Yes, I have seen many of the Electric boats and systems being offered on the web these days like the Duffy, or the system by MasterVolt. These are all great systems, but as has been pointed out, they do not supply range, nor any real performance. What I have concluded is that the Marine versions of electric Propulsion is still way behind the technology curve of the Auto Industry mainly in this area: Nominal System Voltage. The majority of the Marine versions are running at 48 Volts utilizing Brushed DC motors which can not develop the Torque Nor the RPM's of the PMSM 3phase AC Induction motors such as the Nissan Leaf or the Tesla. Example: The Nissan Leaf Operates at 360 Volts, and the Tesla varies up to about 550 Volts. Both the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla are rated for up to 10,000 RPM's and these motors have all their rated torque available right from 5 RPM through 10,000 RPM. (Think the higher the system voltage the LOWER the AMP or current draw = Range) They do not have Brushes to wear out and their Japanese made bushings and bearings are rated for a 10,000 hour lifetime.
Now concerning 'Range' well, here again we have a lagging in the Marine versions. It is well known now, that a Tesla will run almost 250 miles at highway speeds on a single charge, and if you stop at a 220 volt charging station, you can recharge while stopping for dinner at a restaurant. In the west coast between Vegas and Cali there are several Tesla charging stations located near major highway exits, and Tesla has virtually thousands of these charging stations planned to be built. Now, let us consider the new Tesla Semi Truck, It too has a 250 mile range and rated to pull 60k pounds of cargo. Budweiser has just ordered 40 of these Semi Trucks, and has actually taken delivery of 4 so far. The problem with Marine Electric propulsion, and what everyone with a boat has to compare to, are the current suppliers which are primitive and extremely over priced for what you get.
This is why, I decided to go and purchase wrecked Nissan Leafs and Wrecked Teslas to pull their Power electronics, Motors and batteries to convert the Systems that I have installed in smaller boats. (I will start a new thread and post pictures and performance data when I get some free time)
No, I do not expect to get 250 NM's range from the Tesla or the Nissan Leaf in a boat, hence the matching up to a Diesel Generator which can produce 220 voltage which can power the level 2 High Voltage Battery chargers, while the vessel is under way.
Keep in mind the Tesla Batteries are rated at 75kW, but can actually perform at 100kW (software limited by factory) of stored energy. Now, with the Motors set to push the vessel at only 10-12 knots, the power demand will be about 18 to 20kW, so even without the Generator running that gives about 4.5 hours of run time.
Add some Solar to assist the house batteries, and maybe 2 wind generators, and have the Generator set with a 2 wire auto start feature for when the HV batteries need supply or if you need to lower the hammer on those 950 HP Teslas to get out of trouble.
Master Volt sells a primitive electric system for about 15k, Without the Batteries! While I have bought an entire Nissan Leaf at auction for 5k, and got everything I needed for my Jet Boat, Motors; Batteries; Cables; almost everything...........So, as with everything else.....where there is a Will....there IS a Way.....

LaVolta said:

Keep in mind the Tesla Batteries are rated at 75kW, but can actually perform at 100kW (software limited by factory) of stored energy. Now, with the Motors set to push the vessel at only 10-12 knots, the power demand will be about 18 to 20kW, so even without the Generator running that gives about 4.5 hours of run time.

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20 KW is 26 hp at 100% efficiency. Two of those is 52 hp. You need to do the calculations to show that your 60', 60K displacement trawler will do 10-12 knots on 52 hp. You might also want to check how long the Tesla motors will put out 900 hp before catching fire. 4.5 hours duration is OK for some short dock - dock trips, my little trawler has a duration of 200 hours, and a refueling time of less than an hour.

Not trying to be a naysayer, but recognize that not all of the people who have worked on this problem are idiots, and a few are actually quite clever. No one has yet achieved what you are attempting. Make sure you do your homework before you remove those DDs!

I have no doubt there is a way, it's been done. Unless you just care to tinker with systems, which is a great hobby, the question becomes why?

LaVolta said:

So, as with everything else.....where there is a Will....there IS a Way.....

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My sails add about a half-knot with winds from abeam and moving at less than hull speed.

Sails can be put together very in-expensively. Look at his costs in tulsa. Home - SV Seeker

Removing 4-6 tons ballast ( engines, gear units and fuel ) .... you might want to crunch some stability numbers, especially with a sail added.

Rig addition

Our boat is about as heavy as yours -66,000#- although only 43'. The original design had a small steadying sail but the builders lengthened the wheelhouse, which I felt put the effort too far aft to be useful. The boat had a 1940 Detroit Diesel (eventually replaced with a Cummins) and I was a bit nervous about having a way to get home if/when it gave up the ghost. So we installed a small rig forward, which I will show in a photo once I figure out how to add it. With the sails up we can drop engine revs by 200-300 and keep the same speed; without the engine it was painfully slow but we had steerageway. The sails also provide some stability, but not enough for all conditions, plus the boat isn't designed to heel much, so we added paravanes as well. Cost of the rig was around $25,000. Yes, that's a lot of diesel fuel, although not so much when you are buying it at $2+/liter.
Good luck and smooth seas,
Ric

Pretty much everyone has covered what needs to be said, so I'll just add my take.

Two things:
1. Having crossed an ocean last year with pretty steady trade winds, said winds are steady only on a macro scale. Yes, the winds blew steadily for three weeks from the NE thru the SE, but on a minute to minute basis, they aren't that steady.
So a steady 15 kt wind can have voids, like 1 or 2 kts for a portion of a minute or more.
And since you are motoring and not sailing, you would be running over your kite once too often.

2. Electric motive power works great in applications needing torque at low engine rpms, like starting a train rolling or racing a car off the line.
But at top speed, that car doesn't need torque to push it thru the air, just horsepower. Our boats (though not tugs) are like those cars at high speed. Torque isn't needed. We're being pushed thru a fluid.
So, forget hybrid, even without batteries, an electric motive boat would be a big waste of copper (for rhe windings).

lavolta said:

hello everyone! Yes, i am new here, and just want to say i really enjoy reading all the awesome questions and answers here on this forum.
O.k. So here goes my first question:
I have been reading many threads concerning adding one or more of the following to a traditional trawler for purposes of either sail assist, or sail steadying; get home sail; ride sail; steadying sail, and/or lugger sail. I do understand the many replies in which it has been pointed out that a trawler just does not have what it takes to truly have a sail rig for purely propulsion purposes. Namely hull design, keel, rudder, nor proper ballast. But what i was considering is more of a spinnaker type sail rig for running with the wind.
I have a 60 foot concorde motor yacht, 16' beam and about 60k pounds (loaded and provisioned). Not looking for total sail propulsion via a spinnaker, but more along the lines of assisting the 8v71tti detroits to maybe help save some fuel?
Any ideas or even the flat out no way, would be appreciated.
I do hope that everyone had a wonderful christmas and wish everyone a pleasant stress free (as much as possible) new year.

Click to expand...

look up the vessel wonderbird. 65 trawler with a sail assist