This is disturbing! (new Cutwater boat)

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
A dissenting opinion......

Not all producers and service providers are equal. You have a different expectation at Motel 6, than you do at the Ritz Carlton, and that is reflected in the room rate. Certainly there is a minimum that must be met, a clean safe room and courteous employees, but Motel 6 doesn't owe you, nor should you expect, high threadcount Egyption cotton linens and gourmet quality room service.

Perhaps Cutwater is the nautical equivalent of Motel 6 ? The minimum, "clean, safe room" standard would be a boat that doesn't sink, which they failed, but when you look at the punch list of items and service problems, perhaps that is just where they are on the quality/price continuum.

Timex/Rolex....Kia/Mercedes.....Walmart/Bloomingdales......Bayliner/Boston Whaler

A boat isn't a commodity. Its a complicated product backed up by a support network. It seems reasonable to have a range of quality of both product and service, and pricing that reflects that.

(Note: I'm only dealing with the delivery/quality issue here, not the sinking.)
 
Sorry if off topic, but yesterday, I noticed this 2013 Ranger Tug and YW that literally sank on the hard.

The actual condition states "[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is reported this 31' Ranger was on land during heavy rains and the drain plug was not removed. Fresh water entered and was just under the cabin floors.".[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Seems to me it shouldn't be taking on water even if the drain plug isn't removed. Is this a design or quality problem?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2013/ranger-tug-3489593/?refSource=standard%20listing[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 
Greetings,
Mr. D. "[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is this a design or quality problem?" Like the subject of this thread, it could be either, both or none of the above. In theory, any vessel should not leak. Perhaps a critical scupper/drain was blocked by wind borne debris or the volume of rain was too much for the drainage system (Yes, a design problem). Maybe leaks developed somewhere and were not addressed in a timely manner.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Again like the subject of this thread, too many unknowns to point to one cause. May be multiple causes.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
 
Sorry if off topic, but yesterday, I noticed this 2013 Ranger Tug and YW that literally sank on the hard.

The actual condition states "[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is reported this 31' Ranger was on land during heavy rains and the drain plug was not removed. Fresh water entered and was just under the cabin floors.".[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Seems to me it shouldn't be taking on water even if the drain plug isn't removed. Is this a design or quality problem?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2013/ranger-tug-3489593/?refSource=standard%20listing[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

My understanding is that Cutwater and Ranger boats do not have open cockpit drains, although I may stand to be corrected. A drain plug can dewater a boat underway, but if left in, the boat may well fill up with rainwater. My son's Gradys, and all similar boats I am aware of have cockpit drains overboard. A friend of his had to run his Bayliner Trophy up on the beach last year at Sucia Island in WA state. He had put a larger than specified outboard on it which added around 125#. This brought the over the side floor drains in the back to water level, and when it rained, prevented their function. Progressive flooding started, so it was beach-ho after that.
 
Not to hijack the thread but does anybody know what happened here ??
Been watching some YouTube videos from the current owners and just curious.

https://www.nordhavn.com/brokerage/listings/cassidy/

"A mishap that resulted in a sinking" :confused:
Wonder what the cost was to refurbish that one ????
 
My understanding is that Cutwater and Ranger boats do not have open cockpit drains, although I may stand to be corrected. A drain plug can dewater a boat underway, but if left in, the boat may well fill up with rainwater. My son's Gradys, and all similar boats I am aware of have cockpit drains overboard. A friend of his had to run his Bayliner Trophy up on the beach last year at Sucia Island in WA state. He had put a larger than specified outboard on it which added around 125#. This brought the over the side floor drains in the back to water level, and when it rained, prevented their function. Progressive flooding started, so it was beach-ho after that.

Carl
I was looking at an inboard RT 31 (?) yesterday and noted no cockpit drains. A large center hatch and wing hatches were with large “seams” to allow water to pass into under floor scuppers. If the vessel were parked on the hard at an angle easy to see how water could go the wrong way. Or leafs or debris plug them up.

A similar sized Back Cove was berthed nearby. That cockpit is made for weather. As is the boat.
 
Now, BandB, you have some interesting posts about quality, would be nice to know what boats are quality, in your mind. And most of the boats you mention in the 5 million and up are not boats this group will typically buy, especially me. Just getting too big to fit behind my home and I don't want a boat that I can't see every day.

Speaking of quality, the only boat I've owned that had outstanding quality was a Formula. However, the Volvo engines were a disaster and the reason i got rid of it.

Re: Your Formula. Owned two Cobalt's and their quality was very good. But then I owned several small Sea Rays (Sea Ray's L Series was a nightmare but they couldn't build it in their quality facility in Venore, TN) and excellent quality just their quality assurance wasn't equal to Cobalt's. More minor things having nothing to do with the ride or safety.

The boats I'm most familiar with are not the type most here choose. Smaller Riva's aren't in the 5 million range nor are CC's. There are some excellent builders of CC's and SF's. Seavees are build in a warehouse in Opalocka, FL and their quality is very good.

I don't profess to be an expert on Trawlers but a couple of comments on quality. I'd argue the Bayliner cruisers were excellent quality of construction. Orin Edson was ahead of others in automation and modernizing a plant. They didn't profess to be high end but they did what they were designed for extremely well. Just look at their longevity and the happy owners. Grand Banks has always been a quality builder. Look at the Helmsman buyers here pleased with quality and I consider N4061 a good judge and in some ways a difficult customer with his changes but he praises working with them. I hate the Nordhavn commissioning process but their build quality is solid. Look at their repeat buyers. I see so many positive comments from American Tug buyers and owners.

I think also some brands that don't get mentioned a lot because mostly larger, but Outer Reef and Cheoy Lee both build solid boats. Elements of Quality must be differentiated too as Italian boats would have quality if one is looking at performance but some don't match the build quality or quality assurance of others. Some builders design quality boats but are incapable of getting them out the door and delivered with quality.

The majority of builders are able to build a good boat. Only a small number really build lousy boats and only a small number are consistently excellent. Now, with a manufacturing background, I offer an opinion why so few can hit the excellence level. If any of you have ever heard Marcus Lemonis he talks constantly about "People, Product, and Process." Most of his turnarounds are done by improving the Process. I've been involved with turnarounds and it's seldom been the People. Perhaps a few at the top but the manufacturing employees weren't the problem. If they didn't have a product we typically weren't going to get involved. However, Process is the key to quality out the door, to consistency, to on time delivery and to cost.

How many of you have seen home builders who take twice as long as others and charge outrageous prices. Well, if you look closely you'll typically find they use quality materials but their workmanship falters too as timing was off and things sat. If it takes someone an outrageous amount of time to build a boat, they have problems.

A very small boat builder can achieve quality without systems. The owner or manager can keep up with everything that goes on every day. He knows everything on order. He knows what is where. He knows what is next. He can personally instruct every worker. However, he's often lost when things expand beyond what he can manage in that way. He doesn't have the systems to insure everything is controlled. Most midsized builders don't as they feel they can't afford them. They are expensive to acquire and implement.

The ideal builder though has complete documentation and bills of material, has a detailed production schedule, orders everything according to it so never waiting for materials or having to substitute, has documents so every worker knows exactly what they're supposed to do today on each boat. They know all the key measurements and quality checks. Then there are quality control people checking at various stages. Even surveyors can't find it all. You can't defer quality until you have a finished product.

But see, quality control people don't produce anything and many manufacturers just see the added costs. This brings us to industrial engineers. I've never been responsible for manufacturing where industrial engineering wasn't in every factory and wasn't considered essential. It's essential to doing things right and doing them the same way every time. The large Chinese factories are well engineered. Even when using cheap labor you want to maximize effectiveness. Ship manufacturers have industrial engineering.

I recall walking into a high quality boat builder that was actually for sale but that wasn't my purpose of being there. I knew in 1 hour there that I could reduce their labor costs at least 15% and 25% and reduce their build times that much or more, plus eliminate their trash pile of unused materials from ordering mistakes. Now their overall quality was good as they had many people checking. However, it could have been much better as minor things often slipped through from lacking a consistent way of doing things.

Mark Richards isn't a manufacturing person by training. He's a sailor. But he got into manufacturing with Palm Beach in Australia. Then he became President of Grand Banks as they acquired Palm Beach. He has turned Grand Banks manufacturing facility in Malaysia around through the introduction of robotics and the use of technology. The robotics can take the information from CAD and follow a pattern and not just produce a piece with less human labor but produce it exactly the same every time. In Apparel and Soft Goods manufacturing automated cutting of parts has been in use for decades. Even the best human cutters can't achieve the consistency a machine can. Gerber Cutters have been around nearly 50 years and are in use in Aerospace, Construction, furniture, apparel, soft goods, packaging, sign manufacturing and more.

The most sophisticated and best run boat shop floor I've ever seen copied Aerospace. Boeing couldn't operate as so many boat builders do. Find someone who does it better and copy them.

You can build one incredible boat by hand. However, you tell ten people to build ten and they'll all end up different. Systems are needed. The "backyard" builder may do an excellent job. However, if you go to a larger builder, ask them about their systems. They'll show you how they manage things and love showing it off. Or you'll find they don't have much and then don't expect your boat to be like the last one off or the next one.

There is one medium sized builder (well smaller now) in which the owner is perhaps a design genius, either that or mad scientist. He'd driven to improve every boat he builds. He has a nice riding boat that runs 30 knots but decides if he changes the hull slightly, tweaks this or that, maybe he can get 32 knots. He does but whereas before he had an excellent ride, now it rides horribly. It's one thing to make changes and improvements inside the boat or above the deck. He loves messing with keels to reduce the drag. If he'd stay out of the way and just let the yard do the job they're probably solve 90% of their quality issues.

In this thread we've spoken of autos and planes. I laugh when I hear "well boats are nothing like cars". Actually, the process of building is the same regardless of the end product. Now, most boat builders don't do the volume so can't set up like a car factory. But they could sure study car factories and learn some things from them. They're not having to change the order in which they do things because they're waiting for the engine which was supposed to go in today. They're using engineering to achieve consistency.
 
... is not worth losing the dealer service departments. ...

I don't know about you, but unless it is a safety recall (i.e. performed for free), the last place I'm going to take my vehicles for service is the dealer.
 
That's by law? I never knew that, and always took the whole dealer distribution model as a business decision, not something mandated.


Would you have any guidance on where such a law might be found? I'd be interested to read it.

Google “Tesla dealer direct sales” or similar
 
I've observed the fight to allow Tesla in some states and repeal the protective law. I've seen the same fight when Ford decided to try to buy up their dealers.

The auto dealers employee a lot of people so had heavy influence in the states. There were also strong arguments against allowing the car manufacturers to have vertical monopolies and control all levels of the supply channel. The feeling was that short term the consumer might benefit but would lose long term. There is some merit to that. Imagine no competing dealerships, that if you wanted to buy a Ford product it would be the same price at all dealerships. With the limited number of manufacturers, it's easy to then picture some form of collusion on pricing strategies.
 
I don't know about you, but unless it is a safety recall (i.e. performed for free), the last place I'm going to take my vehicles for service is the dealer.

Since this thread has evolved into including vehicles, I'm going to add my $.02 worth.
First, a little about me. Forty years working on Porsches, from 356's to 959's, to the latest 911's. I started at an independent Porsche shop in Southern California in 1976. After 10 years there I moved to Seattle and started working at dealerships. The last 22 years was at the largest Porsche dealer in the PNW, where I became shop foreman. This store was owned by one man, with a couple minor partners. We believed in complete customer satisfaction. More than a few of our customers became our friends and would drop by any time just to talk, and not just about cars. Unfortunately that dealership has since been sold.
The above quote is true....if your car is 20 years old. Modern cars are so computer controlled that it takes a factory trained technician with the latest diagnostic equipment to work on them. Technicians have access to the latest software updates for your engines, transmissions, differentials, climate controls, heated seats, sunroofs, I could go on about every single feature in your car. A simple thing like adjusting headlights now takes specialized equipment. Even changing oil sometimes takes a diagnostic computer now that a lot of engines don't have dipsticks.
The diagnostic equipment and tools are available to independent shops, but at a prohibitive cost. It's hard for a small shop to justify spending $20,000 on a piece of equipment they might use only a couple times a week. And that's just one piece. We had well over one million dollars of equipment in our shop.
Our technicians were also highly trained, spending at least two weeks a year minimum at a training facility. When a new model came out we were all trained on what was new and different. When was the last time your independent technician was at a factory school? If we ran into trouble we had instant access to a tech line that, if needed, could escalate the problem to a factory engineer.
When I first started working on cars, 100% of my time was spent doing mechanical and electrical work. Today's technician spends probably less than 30% on that and the rest on electronic diagnostics and repair and software updates. Think carefully about who you want working on your car when you have a problem with your adaptive cruise control, lane change assist, or any of the other safety features found on today's cars.
Sorry for the long rant. My boat is on the hard for maintenance and I don't have anything else to do.
 
Last car I bought, the dealer sales manager was all over the extra warranty for the electronics. He said that the car I bought was full of computers and that if any one of them failed and had to be replaced it would cost hundreds of dollars to fix it. He went on and on about how I really needed to get the warranty.

I said "So you're saying that the car you are selling me is unreliable?"

He shut up.
 
ssobol, to address your statement, I would have to ask how long you would plan on keeping that new vehicle. If planning on keeping it longer than the factory warranty, then I would definitely suggest considering extending the warranty. Unfortunately the cost of replacement parts is very high. With most high end vehicles, the cost of computers and electronics is in the thousands, not hundreds. While most components are very reliable, sometimes things fail. It's a lot like health insurance. You probably won't need it. But what if? Also, I am a firm believer in factory extended warranties. Not like the kind you see on late night TV.
 
Last car I bought, the dealer sales manager was all over the extra warranty for the electronics. He said that the car I bought was full of computers and that if any one of them failed and had to be replaced it would cost hundreds of dollars to fix it. He went on and on about how I really needed to get the warranty.
I said "So you're saying that the car you are selling me is unreliable?"
He shut up.
When I last bought and was pushed onto the paint and trim protection salesman, he told me I had to protect the paint, it was vulnerable to air,rain,sideways looks from passersby, etc. I said something similar, "The paint on the new car I just bought is crap? I shouldn`t have bought it,I`m going back to see the salesman".
 
I don't know about you, but unless it is a safety recall (i.e. performed for free), the last place I'm going to take my vehicles for service is the dealer.

I meant for service under warranty is all. I don't go to dealer for anything else beyond that. But if it still under warranty I always use them.
 
Last edited:
ssobol, to address your statement, I would have to ask how long you would plan on keeping that new vehicle. If planning on keeping it longer than the factory warranty, then I would definitely suggest considering extending the warranty. Unfortunately the cost of replacement parts is very high. With most high end vehicles, the cost of computers and electronics is in the thousands, not hundreds. While most components are very reliable, sometimes things fail. It's a lot like health insurance. You probably won't need it. But what if? Also, I am a firm believer in factory extended warranties. Not like the kind you see on late night TV.

I usually drive them till they almost drop (15 to 20 years). Last two cars I had were donated to charity (one had a trashed engine because the timing chain slipped). The one before that was sold for $500. Right now I have a 12 year old and a 5 year old.

BTW, one of them is a Honda Fit. The dealer said there are ~200 computers in it. Apparently a high computer count is not the domain of "high end" vehicles. Perhaps the dealer was exaggerating.
 
I also tend to keep cars for a long time. Currently have a 2001 F250 and last year gave our 2000 Focus to charity. It was still running. No, a high computer count isn't just for high end cars. They just charge more for them. I remember many years ago reading that the average car had more computing power than the lunar lander. The first computer I can think of in a Porsche was the fuel injection computer for a 1970 914, which was just a VW engine.
 
I also tend to keep cars for a long time. Currently have a 2001 F250 and last year gave our 2000 Focus to charity. It was still running. No, a high computer count isn't just for high end cars. They just charge more for them. I remember many years ago reading that the average car had more computing power than the lunar lander. The first computer I can think of in a Porsche was the fuel injection computer for a 1970 914, which was just a VW engine.

They used to say your digital watch (when those were a thing) had more computing power than the lunar lander. Your smart phone has more computing power than they could even conceive of when they were building lunar landers. You can easily fly to the moon and back using your smart phone (if only you can keep the damn thing charged).
 
They used to say your digital watch (when those were a thing) had more computing power than the lunar lander. Your smart phone has more computing power than they could even conceive of when they were building lunar landers. You can easily fly to the moon and back using your smart phone (if only you can keep the damn thing charged).

My first job outside of working for my father, I remember the computer room was the size of a house, about 2500 sq ft. It wasn't quite full when I arrived but a few years earlier had been packed. By the time I retired, our computer room was 400 sq ft and had far more capability and the computer on my desk was 1000 times the mainframes when I arrived.

In 1970, the year I was born, an IBM 370 had 500 KB of RAM, 233 MB of Hard Drive Space and ran at 2.5 Mhz. It took up a room. In today's dollars it would cost you $10 million or so. Last mainframe we purchased was around $100,000. Today's smartphone is 1000 times as fast and stores 100 times as much data. Now, most companies can operate on mid-range computers and nearly all with under $100 million in sales can operate on PC networks.
 
Since this thread has evolved into including vehicles, I'm going to add my $.02 worth.
First, a little about me. Forty years working on Porsches, from 356's to 959's, to the latest 911's. I started at an independent Porsche shop in Southern California in 1976. After 10 years there I moved to Seattle and started working at dealerships. The last 22 years was at the largest Porsche dealer in the PNW, where I became shop foreman. This store was owned by one man, with a couple minor partners. We believed in complete customer satisfaction. More than a few of our customers became our friends and would drop by any time just to talk, and not just about cars. Unfortunately that dealership has since been sold.
The above quote is true....if your car is 20 years old. Modern cars are so computer controlled that it takes a factory trained technician with the latest diagnostic equipment to work on them. Technicians have access to the latest software updates for your engines, transmissions, differentials, climate controls, heated seats, sunroofs, I could go on about every single feature in your car. A simple thing like adjusting headlights now takes specialized equipment. Even changing oil sometimes takes a diagnostic computer now that a lot of engines don't have dipsticks.
The diagnostic equipment and tools are available to independent shops, but at a prohibitive cost. It's hard for a small shop to justify spending $20,000 on a piece of equipment they might use only a couple times a week. And that's just one piece. We had well over one million dollars of equipment in our shop.
Our technicians were also highly trained, spending at least two weeks a year minimum at a training facility. When a new model came out we were all trained on what was new and different. When was the last time your independent technician was at a factory school? If we ran into trouble we had instant access to a tech line that, if needed, could escalate the problem to a factory engineer.
When I first started working on cars, 100% of my time was spent doing mechanical and electrical work. Today's technician spends probably less than 30% on that and the rest on electronic diagnostics and repair and software updates. Think carefully about who you want working on your car when you have a problem with your adaptive cruise control, lane change assist, or any of the other safety features found on today's cars.
Sorry for the long rant. My boat is on the hard for maintenance and I don't have anything else to do.
Great perspective, thank you.
 
+1. Which is why on our latest P purchase we went for the 7 year warranty.

Extended warranty's are insurance. If you don't drop dead, I doubt your wife thinks the money was wasted. Modern cars are dependent of their computer systems and electronics, and they are very expensive. I doubt I'll need the policies I have on our cars for mechanical reasons, but electronic may be a different story.
 
A corollary to this (since we are way OT) is that collectors of the future will have little to collect. A Model A Ford is made from steel and a very little bit of stranded wire. You can make replacement parts for nearly everything in it, but being steel you mostly don't need to. A friend of mine runs a shop that repairs antique race cars. They needed an engine for a 1916 Pugeot, so they made one. Today's cars are injection molded plastic and integrated circuit electronics and firmware. It is very difficult, - practically impossible - to replace parts, once the repair stock is gone. They are truly disposable. Perhaps manufacturing technology will catch this up (3D printing for example) but probably not completely.
 
Extended warranty's are insurance. If you don't drop dead, I doubt your wife thinks the money was wasted. Modern cars are dependent of their computer systems and electronics, and they are very expensive. I doubt I'll need the policies I have on our cars for mechanical reasons, but electronic may be a different story.

One thing that is becoming apparent is that what were once simple fender benders are now significant financial events. The number of sensors, radars, cameras, etc. in the fenders and bumper covers of even economy cars is astounding. A fender that once cost $800 now is filled with as much as $10,000 of electronics that are easily damaged in even minor bumps. Putting all of these sensors on the periphery of the vehicle may be necessary but it also puts them at greater risk.

We are not far from the day a nearly new compact car needing a couple of fenders and a bumper cover will be a total loss.
 
BandB, I will forever kick myself for not foreseeing the future. In 1969, while at the University of Washington, I took a COBOL programming course. The computer was in a temperature controlled, glassed in room the size of a house. You passed your punch cards (Google it) through a slot and were told when to come back and get your printout. I saw no future in computers. Too big and time consuming (the punch card part, not the actual computing time). With any vision I could have been Bill Gates and owned that 959 instead of just working on it.
To get back to the original subject, I'm getting my boat back and will be at my marina tomorrow. If anyone is interested I can take a few pictures of the sponson on the Cutwater that had the battery meltdown, see post #16. I do not recall seeing any round access plates in the top, but I will look again.
 
One thing that is becoming apparent is that what were once simple fender benders are now significant financial events. The number of sensors, radars, cameras, etc. in the fenders and bumper covers of even economy cars is astounding. A fender that once cost $800 now is filled with as much as $10,000 of electronics that are easily damaged in even minor bumps. Putting all of these sensors on the periphery of the vehicle may be necessary but it also puts them at greater risk.

We are not far from the day a nearly new compact car needing a couple of fenders and a bumper cover will be a total loss.

The electronics are the cheap part. The software to utilize them is what costs the money.

As GM says "You may be buying the car, but you are only licensing the software that actually makes it run."
 
One thing that is becoming apparent is that what were once simple fender benders are now significant financial events. The number of sensors, radars, cameras, etc. in the fenders and bumper covers of even economy cars is astounding. A fender that once cost $800 now is filled with as much as $10,000 of electronics that are easily damaged in even minor bumps. Putting all of these sensors on the periphery of the vehicle may be necessary but it also puts them at greater risk.

We are not far from the day a nearly new compact car needing a couple of fenders and a bumper cover will be a total loss.

An argument for a good old used car. Heck, I've never spent more than $8k on a car but only had a few. Get a good one, take can of it and when it gets old, junk it and get another. Very cheap and reliable transportation, and my car is just as comfy and does the same thing that a new one does. Cars are only consumables. I'm not in love with a car. Now, the boat or plane are different. One can get emotional about the well being and feelings of their boat.:socool:
 

Here's an example of the equipment needed to calibrate lane change assist after a sensor has been replaced.
 
Here's an example of the equipment needed to calibrate lane change assist after a sensor has been replaced.

If I had this in my car and the sensor failed, I'd probably just turn the system off and carry on (especially if the warranty is over). So far I've driven for 40 some years without lane change assist. I can probably manage without it.
 
Insurance companies may dictate what you have in your car or not...already discounts can add upfast for even systems that have been around for decades now.
 
Back
Top Bottom