Building a Nordhavn - again

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TT - Wet vs. Dry exhaust?

I read on your blog to get more insight into your choice. It mainly emphasized the space issue. Were there other technical reasons that made you change the standard Nordhavn arrangement, or mainly that?

Before TT pollutes your mind with his confused views on this subject :)rolleyes:), here's an alternate view....

Both wet and dry have their advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of wet is no lost interior space for a raceway for the dry stack, and depending on the motor that is about it. I make that qualification because some motors seem to produce more soot than others. My CAT 3306, for whatever reason, produces almost none if run correctly. If you have experienced a sooty motor, and will have one again with a dry stack then wet starts looking pretty good.

The advantage of a dry stack is no salt water, no salt water pump and impeller to wear out, additional space in the ER, and no possibility of back pressure in the exhaust if the stack pipe is correctly sized. And if you have a clean engine, less labor to clean exhaust residue than with a wet exhaust - the later obviously a function of what have you got to do the cleaning, type of engine, etc.
 
By the time you get the weight and the thrusters and rudder, docking a N68 would not be an issue. I find it far easier to just gently walk a larger boat in and place it right beside the dock. Now, the task that is a challenge is keeping the boat clean, washdowns and more. That work increases with size and one might just get help from some hands hanging around the docks on occasion. We'd be fine at the handling and operating and docking, but not at all as to maintaining a boat that size.



Bingo. Lots of acreage to clean. But my wife is up to it. She claims that’s her job, and who am I to argue[emoji106]
 
Bingo. Lots of acreage to clean. But my wife is up to it. She claims that’s her job, and who am I to argue[emoji106]

Your probably already planning on doing so, but make sure you install a hydraulic high pressure washer. Ours saves us SO much time in keeping the exterior clean.
 
Before TT pollutes your mind with his confused views on this subject :)rolleyes:), here's an alternate view....



Both wet and dry have their advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of wet is no lost interior space for a raceway for the dry stack, and depending on the motor that is about it. I make that qualification because some motors seem to produce more soot than others. My CAT 3306, for whatever reason, produces almost none if run correctly. If you have experienced a sooty motor, and will have one again with a dry stack then wet starts looking pretty good.



The advantage of a dry stack is no salt water, no salt water pump and impeller to wear out, additional space in the ER, and no possibility of back pressure in the exhaust if the stack pipe is correctly sized. And if you have a clean engine, less labor to clean exhaust residue than with a wet exhaust - the later obviously a function of what have you got to do the cleaning, type of engine, etc.



Good comparison. Pollution will be minimal.

I totally agree that both have their advantages and disadvantages, and it’s nearly a draw, hence the heated debate. I often argue that the things that matter the least get argued the most, simple because it doesn’t matter and is a draw.

For me it was two things, noise and soot.

Noise I think is implementation specific, but our 60 I think was unacceptably loud. I used the fly bridge exactly once, and that was pre delivery to verify everything worked. It was otherwise too loud for my taste. Mid 70s dB as I recall, with a throbbing probably exacerbated by the hardtop. I didn’t want to be up there. A while ago I was well down the path of adding a second muffler to quiet it down, until the math showed unacceptable back pressure unless I increased the whole exhaust from 5” to 6”. So that project got put on the back shelf.

To me, a wet exhaust is loudest in the cockpit where I am least likely to be when underway. Now this may be different for different people. We are about the scenery, not about fishing. If you are about fishing, you might arrive at a different conclusion. No one size fits all.

Re soot, from what I can tell, there are two types. Flakes of soot that land in the deck and make a mess, and a steady mist while underway that coats everything is the airstream.

Many boats suffer the former, but we were spared. We never had soot flakes, and I thank the EPA for that and clean running engines.

What we did have is what I think every diesel has, a constant mist of grime over everything down wind of the exhaust. With a wet exhaust this coats the sides and transom depending on where the exhaust exits. On our dry exhaust it coated everything on the stack including all the instruments and sensors. Believe me, it’s way easier to clean your boat side or transom from the cockpit or a tender, than to clean every instrument on your mast 35’ in the air. Now in fairness, this again depends on the details of your boat and where everything is located. But for us it was a giant pain in the ass. And as you would clean the mast/stack, all that crap would wash down over the rest of the boat. I have shirts permanently stained with black dots.

Lesson 1: just because fish boats do it doesn’t mean it’s good for you too. Evaluate with a critical eye.

And on a more minor annoyance, anytime we had a tail wind of more than about 15kts, the exhaust plume would blow forward over our weather instrument and report outside temps of 125F. This is one of the non obvious things to consider.

Moving on to sea water pumps, impellers, and keel coolers.....

Hand in hand with eliminating dry exhaust is the assumption of said raw water pumps and associated maintenance. I truly Hate changing impellers. If you have ever changed one on a larger engine, you know what I’m talking about. It is a real wrestling match. There is a huge difference between changing a 2” impeller on a small engine, and a 3” or 4” impeller on a larger engine. That all favors dry exhaust and more specifically, elimination of raw water pumps.

But like it or not, those darn raw water pumps and their impellers just won’t go away. I used to have a wing engine and a generator requiring impeller changes. And now I’ll have a wing engine and two generators requiring impellers. So what’s the harm in one more? After all, the engine NOT requiring an impeller is odd man out, right?

Now lets look at the flip side. Dry exhaust, or more specifically keel cooler, requires maintenance too. They need to be cleaned or you will find temps climbing. And the zincs on them need to be replaced every 6 months or so. So whether it’s changing impellers or cleaning grid coolers and changing zincs, you are doing maintenance on a regular basis.

So what’s the difference, you might ask? Well, since you asked, the difference is whether the work is conducted from inside the boat where it is warm and dry, or in the water where it is cold and wet. I’ll leave it to you to decide. You know where I landed on the question.
 
Good comparison. Pollution will be minimal.

I totally agree that both have their advantages and disadvantages, and it’s nearly a draw, hence the heated debate. I often argue that the things that matter the least get argued the most, simple because it doesn’t matter and is a draw.

For me it was two things, noise and soot.

Noise I think is implementation specific, but our 60 I think was unacceptably loud. I used the fly bridge exactly once, and that was pre delivery to verify everything worked. It was otherwise too loud for my taste. Mid 70s dB as I recall, with a throbbing probably exacerbated by the hardtop. I didn’t want to be up there. A while ago I was well down the path of adding a second muffler to quiet it down, until the math showed unacceptable back pressure unless I increased the whole exhaust from 5” to 6”. So that project got put on the back shelf.

To me, a wet exhaust is loudest in the cockpit where I am least likely to be when underway. Now this may be different for different people. We are about the scenery, not about fishing. If you are about fishing, you might arrive at a different conclusion. No one size fits all.

Re soot, from what I can tell, there are two types. Flakes of soot that land in the deck and make a mess, and a steady mist while underway that coats everything is the airstream.

Many boats suffer the former, but we were spared. We never had soot flakes, and I thank the EPA for that and clean running engines.

What we did have is what I think every diesel has, a constant mist of grime over everything down wind of the exhaust. With a wet exhaust this coats the sides and transom depending on where the exhaust exits. On our dry exhaust it coated everything on the stack including all the instruments and sensors. Believe me, it’s way easier to clean your boat side or transom from the cockpit or a tender, than to clean every instrument on your mast 35’ in the air. Now in fairness, this again depends on the details of your boat and where everything is located. But for us it was a giant pain in the ass. And as you would clean the mast/stack, all that crap would wash down over the rest of the boat. I have shirts permanently stained with black dots.

Lesson 1: just because fish boats do it doesn’t mean it’s good for you too. Evaluate with a critical eye.

And on a more minor annoyance, anytime we had a tail wind of more than about 15kts, the exhaust plume would blow forward over our weather instrument and report outside temps of 125F. This is one of the non obvious things to consider.

Moving on to sea water pumps, impellers, and keel coolers.....

Hand in hand with eliminating dry exhaust is the assumption of said raw water pumps and associated maintenance. I truly Hate changing impellers. If you have ever changed one on a larger engine, you know what I’m talking about. It is a real wrestling match. There is a huge difference between changing a 2” impeller on a small engine, and a 3” or 4” impeller on a larger engine. That all favors dry exhaust and more specifically, elimination of raw water pumps.

But like it or not, those darn raw water pumps and their impellers just won’t go away. I used to have a wing engine and a generator requiring impeller changes. And now I’ll have a wing engine and two generators requiring impellers. So what’s the harm in one more? After all, the engine NOT requiring an impeller is odd man out, right?

Now lets look at the flip side. Dry exhaust, or more specifically keel cooler, requires maintenance too. They need to be cleaned or you will find temps climbing. And the zincs on them need to be replaced every 6 months or so. So whether it’s changing impellers or cleaning grid coolers and changing zincs, you are doing maintenance on a regular basis.

So what’s the difference, you might ask? Well, since you asked, the difference is whether the work is conducted from inside the boat where it is warm and dry, or in the water where it is cold and wet. I’ll leave it to you to decide. You know where I landed on the question.

I think you nailed it, in that it is very implementation specific. I do get exhaust grime on my mizzen mast, but I can clean that off with around 15 min effort every few months. Probably a wash when compared to cleaning a transom. Any soot I ever see is made short work of with our hydraulic high pressure washdown pump.

The noise factor I hadn't considered, but mostly because our system is pretty quiet. The stack runs up through the deck behind the pilot house, and you can speak in a conservational tone no problem. Since we don't have a flying bridge, that isn't an issue, but I can see how it would be. Regarding impellors, I had two, but eliminated the pump for hydraulic cooling with a Grunfos electric pump that is silent and zero maintenance. Since the cooling for hydraulics is coolant through the old half pipe keep coolers, that works. The other is on the genset, which has wet exhaust and an air water separator and I'm probably stuck with that one since it is raw water. That plus the water maker are the only two used for raw water I have. Just two through hulls, one for supply and one for tank emptying.

Regarding keel coolers, the Walters I have require no grid cooling because that aren't a grid, just cupro nickel tubes, so no maintenance there. However, I do have the zincs on them changed every six months when I have the bottom whisked.

I think the most compelling argument against dry stack is the noise if you have a flying bridge. Otherwise, and depending on other implementation factors, dry exhaust is safer (no sea water) and easier to maintain. At least for me.
 
A while back we had a transient Nordhavn 86 moored directly in front of Blue Sky. After it left we had soot all over our foredeck as did another nearby vessel.
 
"Many people say buy the smallest boat that will meet your needs."
That's always been my philosophy when buying a boat and it has served me well. Understanding what the true "mission" of the boat will be is the trick. Given that you & your wife are die hard cruisers, your choice makes perfect sense. Best of luck to you both!:thumb:
 
I think you nailed it, in that it is very implementation specific. I do get exhaust grime on my mizzen mast, but I can clean that off with around 15 min effort every few months. Probably a wash when compared to cleaning a transom. Any soot I ever see is made short work of with our hydraulic high pressure washdown pump.

The noise factor I hadn't considered, but mostly because our system is pretty quiet. The stack runs up through the deck behind the pilot house, and you can speak in a conservational tone no problem. Since we don't have a flying bridge, that isn't an issue, but I can see how it would be. Regarding impellors, I had two, but eliminated the pump for hydraulic cooling with a Grunfos electric pump that is silent and zero maintenance. Since the cooling for hydraulics is coolant through the old half pipe keep coolers, that works. The other is on the genset, which has wet exhaust and an air water separator and I'm probably stuck with that one since it is raw water. That plus the water maker are the only two used for raw water I have. Just two through hulls, one for supply and one for tank emptying.

Regarding keel coolers, the Walters I have require no grid cooling because that aren't a grid, just cupro nickel tubes, so no maintenance there. However, I do have the zincs on them changed every six months when I have the bottom whisked.

I think the most compelling argument against dry stack is the noise if you have a flying bridge. Otherwise, and depending on other implementation factors, dry exhaust is safer (no sea water) and easier to maintain. At least for me.


The need to clean the keel cooler I think is location dependent. I never had any trouble in the PNW. But in Mexico in warmer waters I found my engine temps rising in ways I had never seen before. Cleaning the keel cooler solved the problem.


There are so many variables. It's a hard problem to solve.
 
A while back we had a transient Nordhavn 86 moored directly in front of Blue Sky. After it left we had soot all over our foredeck as did another nearby vessel.

To eliminate soot on startup, I find it necessary to do what s/b done anyway with trawler engines running at very low power settings, and that is to heat the motor up by running it for 15 minutes or so at 70% power shortly before shutting out down after a run. If the engine is producing soot just sitting there idling, it has other issues that s/b addressed.
 
The need to clean the keel cooler I think is location dependent. I never had any trouble in the PNW. But in Mexico in warmer waters I found my engine temps rising in ways I had never seen before. Cleaning the keel cooler solved the problem.


There are so many variables. It's a hard problem to solve.

What kind of cooler?
 
What kind of cooler?


Fernstrum.


Another maintenance item that I forgot to mention is changing zincs on the keel cooler. They didn't last very long on our 60, and every 4-6 months had to be replaced. Other zincs were good for a year or even two depending on the water. In the PNW they lasted a lot longer than Mexico. My guess is because of the salinity level, but I don't really know.
 
Fernstrum.


Another maintenance item that I forgot to mention is changing zincs on the keel cooler. They didn't last very long on our 60, and every 4-6 months had to be replaced. Other zincs were good for a year or even two depending on the water. In the PNW they lasted a lot longer than Mexico. My guess is because of the salinity level, but I don't really know.

Walters don't require cleaning like that. The tubes are separated by a couple of inches and get hot enough nothing really sticks to them. Zincs, yes, every six months or so.
 
And FWIW, I just measured the DB level in the pilothouse underway and outside on the top deck just aft of the dry stack, but out of the wind, and they measured 61 and 70 db respectively.
 
And FWIW, I just measured the DB level in the pilothouse underway and outside on the top deck just aft of the dry stack, but out of the wind, and they measured 61 and 70 db respectively.



That’s very good, and much better than my 60. As I recall, the boat deck and flybridge were in the high 70s.

I think the lesson here is that it’s very implementation specific.
 
That’s very good, and much better than my 60. As I recall, the boat deck and flybridge were in the high 70s.

I think the lesson here is that it’s very implementation specific.

I'm convinced that lining the entirety of all inside surfaces with 1/4" acoustical Cory has made a lot of difference, comfort wise, on this boat.
 
Twisted, I happened on this site by accident, www.nordhavnfacts.com. Somebody has really got a bug in his bonnet to go after NH like this. Any insight on the background of this story, realizing there are always two sides to the tale?
___________________
Ken. Hatt Trick
 
Interesting project. Very interesting discussion.

All this talk of soot got me wondering about tier 4 compliant systems. Are there any available that would suit?
 
. Regarding impellors, I had two, but eliminated the pump for hydraulic cooling with a Grunfos electric pump that is silent and zero maintenance.

I had electric centrifugal pumps suggested to me after I had bought a spare belt driven impeller pump for our 855 Cummins after having a pump get the death wobbles a year or so ago.


With higher rpm requiring more water flow how was the speed of the pump controlled?
 
Twisted, I happened on this site by accident, www.nordhavnfacts.com. Somebody has really got a bug in his bonnet to go after NH like this. Any insight on the background of this story, realizing there are always two sides to the tale?
___________________
Ken. Hatt Trick

Well, one fact. The buyer sued Nordhavn and lost, so the court did not agree with him. He really had the bug in his bonnet after losing the case.

That entire deal was well out of Nordhavn's normal realm. 120' Boat, delivery by water. Probably a deal neither party should have made.

Now, I do think the surveys are rather condemning of the situation. I put the most credence in Mr. D'Antonio's because of all the specifics listed. The others build from that.

It looks to me like the condition of the boat, especially the interior, may well have deteriorated by exposure on the long delivery trip. However, also some design and manufacturing issues.

Here's where I think the deal was impossible from the start as discussed in another thread. The contract read over and over equal or better than Westport. There was an expectation of Westport's on time delivery. Not reasonable with Nordhavn, especially a new model. Westport doesn't pre-sell new models like that. Quality of carpentry and other things equal or better than Westport. You're talking a very good trawler builder vs one of the top quality yacht builders. Not likely. Westport delivers a finished boat but they are semi-custom with a lot of standard equipment. Nordhavn allows a buyer to choose virtually any equipment. Where this deal was doomed was the buyer and Nordhavn personnel walking through and spending time on Westport's and then deciding, "yes Nordhavn can do exactly what Westport can do." Westport would never enter a contract saying, "We'll agree to any equipment you want, just like Nordhavn." There were 1000's of changes made after the start of production. With Westport, everything is detailed when you sign the contract. You don't change things throughout. Now, some of that is a result of a new design, but again, something Nordhavn might do that Westport wouldn't.

The buyer's expectations were unreasonable and I don't know why Nordhavn agreed to put them in a contract. Nordhavn and Westport are very good builders with tons of happy customers. However, very different, opposite extremes. Twisted and I have communicated. He's been aboard Westports and he will tell you he could not live with the limitations they put on you, he wants far more choices.

Now, this doesn't excuse the lateness, a pet peeve of mine, but nothing in the contract spelled out a penalty for such. They just agreed they wouldn't be late. Now does it excuse the long list of issues pointed out in the various surveys. This was not up to Nordhavn normal standards. I think Nordhavn bit off more boat than they were prepared for and just because you build very good 68' boats doesn't mean you're ready to build a 120' boat.

I don't care about his damaged washer and dryer, $8000 our of $16 million. I do think there were some poorly designed items. And I think that by finishing the boat before shipping it rather than their normal extensive (which I hate but Nordhavn owners are use to) commissioning that left a lot of things done poorly and overlooked. Again, Nordhavn outside their norm. Not commissioned by those who normally do a US or Canadian boat. The buyer expected a boat completely finished prior to shipping and delivered in 100% condition. That's not how Nordhavn operates. That is how Westport does.

My conclusion. I'd not recommend a 120' from Nordhavn today. Not the first builder I've seen struggle with a boat much larger than their norm. However, it doesn't change at all my view of their normal sized boats. I'd not expect Nordhavn to be just like Westport. I would expect their management to not let egos get in their way and make such promises. If you went to Westport and said "I want you to walk through this Nordhavn with me and then I'm going to put all the things I want done just like it", that would be the shortest discussion ever. ABS compliance was a major challenge. Well, Westport has 4 current models and has built from 15 to 60 of three of them. ABS is routine for them. I have never seen a contract in which many of the items were defined to be equal to or better than another manufacturer. Who even decides?

Now you have the buyer, a poor loser, and he chooses not just to build a site but to pay Google enough to advertise it and get it to show up at the top of any search. I'm sorry, but that does not do much for my impression of him.

Oh, and before one says, perhaps the buyer didn't know. Well, he'd already purchased several Nordhavns.

Had I purchase the boat, I would have been very upset with the condition based on the surveys. Entirely unacceptable. However, I'm not one to purchase a new model, especially one far larger than what the company is building. I would have recommended he either take a 96 or buy a Westport or wait and buy the 2nd or 3rd 120.
 
Twisted, I happened on this site by accident, www.nordhavnfacts.com. Somebody has really got a bug in his bonnet to go after NH like this. Any insight on the background of this story, realizing there are always two sides to the tale?
___________________
Ken. Hatt Trick

Make a note too. Twisted will not encounter what that buyer did. He'll get a very nice boat and be very happy.
 
I had electric centrifugal pumps suggested to me after I had bought a spare belt driven impeller pump for our 855 Cummins after having a pump get the death wobbles a year or so ago.


With higher rpm requiring more water flow how was the speed of the pump controlled?

The hydraulic cooling impellor pump I replaced was constant speed, so I just matched the flow with the Grunfos I replaced it with. That is s closed coolant loop. If I replace the pump on the genset, same scenario as it is constant speed. The main would be a different story although I imagine proportioning valves could be used if you have raw water mixed with the exhaust. Since I'm dry stack, keel cooled with a closed system I fortunately don't have to worry about that.

I've already replaced the Northern Lights genset pump once due to sea water seepage. $600, which is an absolute rip off. The rebuild was $500. The new one is already starting to seep as well.
 
Bingo. Lots of acreage to clean. But my wife is up to it. She claims that’s her job, and who am I to argue[emoji106]



Indeed... my wife and I (+ our 7 year old son) live full time on a Nordhavn 72 and the only problem we have is the cleaning. We’ve decided that paying others to do this but doing almost all our own maintenance is a good balance and seems to work for us so far. Docking and passagemaking with the 2 of us isn’t an issue.

Tom Reed
N7202, Alchemy
 
TT, Congrats on your new build, you must be very excited.

Are people with similar sized N's using Yacht Controllers?


I only know of one or two, but there are probably more. All the bigger Nordhavns have wing stations so you can operate from the side of the portuguese bridge, and often the stern as well.


On our 60, the wing stations were all optional, but it was less expensive to add three than to install a Yacht Controller. On the 68 the wing stations are all standard equipment.
 
Your probably already planning on doing so, but make sure you install a hydraulic high pressure washer. Ours saves us SO much time in keeping the exterior clean.


Very interesting debate on them. Your boat is painted, right? It must be. The reports from friends with pressure washers is that they work great, but take the wax off the gel coast along with the dirt. I know one guy who had one on his last boat and is eliminating it on his next for just this reason.


The area where everyone seems to agree they are useful is for washing the anchor and chain as they come aboard if you don't have a built-in anchor wash. The 68 does have an anchor wash, so I'm not installing a pressure washer.
 
I had not seen Conconi's web site, but there is nothing news worthy there. It was a long drawn out fight, the court found in PAE (Nordhavn's) favor on all counts, it was appealed, and again found in PAE's favor.


It was not a happy start for the boat, but as I mentioned in another thread, I was on the 120 maybe a year ago, hosted by the first mate. The whole crew absolutely loves the boat, and couldn't stop complementing it, especially compared to other large yachts they had run before. And the boat is very actively used. California one day, then Newport RI then next.... It's a very happy second chapter.
 
Very interesting debate on them. Your boat is painted, right? It must be. The reports from friends with pressure washers is that they work great, but take the wax off the gel coast along with the dirt. I know one guy who had one on his last boat and is eliminating it on his next for just this reason.


The area where everyone seems to agree they are useful is for washing the anchor and chain as they come aboard if you don't have a built-in anchor wash. The 68 does have an anchor wash, so I'm not installing a pressure washer.

Awlgrip. Never had a problem with harming the paint at 3000 psi. I find that pressure washing lets me avoid washing for around 10 cycles. The unit I have allows a reduction in pressure if desired. Put the right nozzle on and you can cut through kelp on the anchor. We use it to blast away seaweed skirts on the top couple of inches of the hull (pick a warm day as you get very West). I frankly could not imagine not having that piece of equipment and marvel I never see them.
 
A wing, or operating from the stern from your sized boat would make a big difference.

I am having a YC installed next week because I do a decent amount of solo operation. Low wind docking has not been an issue, but having the engine thrust, along with the thrusters will be good when I am operating it myself. I had one on our previous boat and it was worth the money IMO.
 
I had not seen Conconi's web site, but there is nothing news worthy there. It was a long drawn out fight, the court found in PAE (Nordhavn's) favor on all counts, it was appealed, and again found in PAE's favor.


It was not a happy start for the boat, but as I mentioned in another thread, I was on the 120 maybe a year ago, hosted by the first mate. The whole crew absolutely loves the boat, and couldn't stop complementing it, especially compared to other large yachts they had run before. And the boat is very actively used. California one day, then Newport RI then next.... It's a very happy second chapter.

Also understand that Twisted is too diplomatic to tell you the rest of the story on Conconi. Let's just simply say he not only lost in his battle with PAE but he lost in his battle with British Columbia as well. Look at his name very carefully and the three words contained in it. No further comment needed.
 
congratulations!

A bunch is answered in this earlier article - from a full year ago when we contracted the build. But a highlights list would be:


- More space - that's obvious
- I want the more comfortable ride in head seas of an aft PH arrangement. The increased weight helps too. 230,000 lbs is a lot of weight.
- Wet exhaust. Dry exhaust was a big mistake, in my mind.
- A number of visibility improvements both while underway, and while at anchor.
- A second, smaller generator.


Most of these are things you can't practically change in a boat, but there were other factors that lead to a new build:


- We were ready for a bit of a break from cruising. We love it, but had been accumulating a big backlog of other things we want to do. So the idea of a couple year break was attractive. That said, every time we see a boat or hear of someone visiting a place we like, it pains us to not have a boat.


- Our 60 offered great resale value. We bought at a good time, improved it in many ways, which allowing us to sell it with a pretty good net annual cost of ownership. Owning it was much like lending someone money for a few years, and instead of collecting interest, you get lots of fun and enjoyment. Then at the end you get most of your money back. So financially it was not a bath, but money well spent.


So all the stars aligned for another build. Plus, I'm trying to keep up with John Torelli...:)

You are in the big leagues compared to us. The cost of your new boat is more than our three Nordies and Helmsman added together. Looking forward to following your journey. Can you expand on what you don't like about the dry stack exhaust design besides the warmer ER? Having owned boats with both designs I actually appreciated the dry stack exhaust being up high and no exhaust fumes. I don't like the warmer ER. Best of luck.

John T.
 
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