Two micron secondaries?

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bayview said:
No Smitty nothing so sophisticated as a black light and color chart.

A simple small LED flash light shined through the fuel gives a good first level clue of any beginning problems.

It only takes seconds when doing prestart ER checks.
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Interesting - we have run vac gages on multiple filters on a few boats now and have found very little correlation or value in looking at the color of fuel vs the actual loading of fuel filters as measured in inches of vacuum.
We have found viewing filter bowls that have been static for hours can be even more misleading.
 
The black magic assumed by looking through dyed fuel on a Racor filter has been a wonderful marketing move for decades. Given the tens of millions of no see-um spin on filters sold for major engine builders diesel fuel applications every year, fuel color and guess work may be a bit over hyped.

But, I have seen opacity meters used on non dyed kerosene based organics as a very useful tool for quality control. Ditto quality control in refineries.
 
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sunchaser said:
The black magic assumed by looking through dyed fuel on a Racor filter has been a wonderful marketing move for decades. Given the tens of millions of no see-um spin on filters sold for major engine builders diesel fuel applications every year, fuel color and guess work may be a bit over hyped.

But, I have seen opacity meters used on non dyed kerosene based organics as a very useful tool for quality control. Ditto quality control in refineries.
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Absolutely - when I worked in an industry that cleaned the inside of multi-million gallon fuel tanks in the NJ/NY area we utilized a number of pretty expensive lab instruments to determine when we had the tanks sufficiently cleaned (xxx contaminants per million of tank volume). Those instruments were applicable to the need at the time but they still did not have a usable correlation between what was visibly seen as 'dark' and what would be unacceptable.
 
I would think that common rail diesels might benefit from 2 microns... traditional mechanical injection it's probably a risk / reward scenario risk is early occlusion reward slightly cleaner fuel... are you currently having injector problems.. we ran 10 mics on our our JD's with MI 3600 hrs and no injector issues...
 
Keep in mind that bio slime and asphaltenes are not particularly abrasive. They tend to get chewed up and sent through the fuel system with little effect. Especially in mechanical engines where injection pump is lubed with engine oil and injectors are simple pressure operated nozzles.

It's not like the filtration system is trying to remove something like abrasive grinding dust, but I suppose that could happen in rare instances.

Common rail takes more care as the knuckleheads that designed the pumps seem to like lubing the pump with fuel vs oil (whole nutha topic), and the injectors are much more complex and critical.

On mechanical injection engines, on the engines I set up, I just go with mfr specs. No need to overthink this. On some I do like retrofitting messy canister filters with spin-ons, just for convenience and less mess.

If your tanks are 40yrs old and full of crud, then extraordinary measures may be needed. Like cleaning the tank!! (if possible)
 
I just checked my May, 2012 notes from Bob Smith’s course: 30 micron primaries and 2 micron secondaries. He recommended switching from Racor 500’s to Racor 900’s. Suggested dual 900’s so you can switch filters quickly.

I took Bob’s course twice. He joked I wasn’t allowed to take it a 3rd time. Sadly I won’t have another opportunity.

Jim
 
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Ka_sea_ta said:
I would think that common rail diesels might benefit from 2 microns... traditional mechanical injection it's probably a risk / reward scenario risk is early occlusion reward slightly cleaner fuel... are you currently having injector problems.. we ran 10 mics on our our JD's with MI 3600 hrs and no injector issues...
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Not sure; just rougher running—especially at idle—than I remember. Also, white “steam” which, from earlier threads, I try to ignore.

Ski in NC said:
Keep in mind that bio slime and asphaltenes are not particularly abrasive. They tend to get chewed up and sent through the fuel system with little effect. Especially in mechanical engines where injection pump is lubed with engine oil and injectors are simple pressure operated nozzles.

It's not like the filtration system is trying to remove something like abrasive grinding dust, but I suppose that could happen in rare instances.

Common rail takes more care as the knuckleheads that designed the pumps seem to like lubing the pump with fuel vs oil (whole nutha topic), and the injectors are much more complex and critical.

On mechanical injection engines, on the engines I set up, I just go with mfr specs. No need to overthink this. On some I do like retrofitting messy canister filters with spin-ons, just for convenience and less mess.

If your tanks are 40yrs old and full of crud, then extraordinary measures may be needed. Like cleaning the tank!! (if possible)
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Thanks, Ski. I’d settle for mfr specs* if I could be sure what they are but I don’t see where a micron rating is specified in the owners manual I have. On that point, I know manufacturers update their manuals and issue technical bulletins to account for experience over years of experience but we seem to be limited in that regard with Ford Lehman engines. Maybe that’s what led to Bob Smith calling for two micron secondaries (see below).

*But I’m not opposed to having cleaner fuel if it doesn’t get too expensive.

JDCAVE said:
I just checked my May, 2012 notes from Bob Smith’s course: 30 micron primaries and 2 micron secondaries. He recommended switching from Racor 500’s to Racor 900’s. Suggested dual 900’s so you can switch filters quickly.

I took Bob’s course twice. He joked I wasn’t allowed to take it a 3rd time. Sadly I won’t have another opportunity.

Jim
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I hear you, JD; I wish I’d met Bob after we bought our boat instead of before. Where do you find the 2 micron secondaries? :confused:

Really appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this.
 
Angus: I bought my 2 micron filters from an old mechanic who has since retired. They were the typical “Lucas” ones originally specked. They are now no longer available, according to Industrial Engines, the local Lehman supplier. I have a box of other 2 micron filters that I have not yet used, but I don’t recall the brand. I do recall someone on the forum saying there a brand out there that “sort of” fits, but they tend to weep.

Jim
 
JDCAVE said:
Angus: I bought my 2 micron filters from an old mechanic who has since retired. They were the typical “Lucas” ones originally specked. They are now no longer available, according to Industrial Engines, the local Lehman supplier. I have a box of other 2 micron filters that I have not yet used, but I don’t recall the brand. I do recall someone on the forum saying there a brand out there that “sort of” fits, but they tend to weep.

Jim
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Thanks, JD.

So to summarize where I am on the question of 2-micron secondaries:

  • the best advice seems to be go with the manufacturer’s spec
  • that spec doesn’t seem to be in any of the literature I’ve looked at
  • the best anecdotal recommendation from the guy who was the guru of Lehmans is 2 microns
  • 2 micron secondaries may not exist

Think I’ll call Brian Smith (again) on Monday. :D
 
For what it’s worth, we try to run Baldwin BF825 fuel filters on our FL SP135. My notes say that have a nominal rating of 8 microns. When I went fuel filter looking 11 plus years ago, I was told that these filters exceed what the manufacturer recommended. I run 10 micron primaries and have never had the Baldwin’s clog up. When I first owned the boat, I change them every other oil change. I cut a few opened and they looked clean, not like the 10 micron Racors when they got changed.
 
I use two microns on both initial and subsequent fuel filters.
 
Larry: I think I’ve got a box of those Baldwin BF825 fuel filters.

angus99 said:
Thanks, JD.



So to summarize where I am on the question of 2-micron secondaries:



  • the best advice seems to be go with the manufacturer’s spec
  • that spec doesn’t seem to be in any of the literature I’ve looked at
  • the best anecdotal recommendation from the guy who was the guru of Lehmans is 2 microns
  • 2 micron secondaries may not exist



Think I’ll call Brian Smith (again) on Monday. :D
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The filter I currently have inline is the Delphi 7111-296.

Jim.
 
The hassle is the filter size 2,10 or 30 microns is a nominal , not an absolute number.

Those 2's may pass a 60 or 100 chunk, it times , just not often.

I prefer 2's in series , as I have never found an "expert" claiming the injectors or engine wore out because the fuel was too clean.

With a perhaps 1 in 10,000 chance of chunks , with series filters it becomes 10,000 x 10,000 x 10,000 if you have 3 filters in line.

Seems the std requirement for common rail engines , where 3-5 shots of fuel , instead of a big shot are the norm.

The key to multiple filtration is a quick valve to shift filter banks if the one in use begins to clog.

Big filters are only about $10.00 each ,at 4 or 6 a change it takes a long time to change out a boat buck. Ask the injector guy what $60.00 will buy!
 
First thing I added when we bought the boat 3 years ago was Tony's 2 stage filter system with vacuum gauges...boat had been onto hard for three years and did not want to take any chances with fuel gunk or hiring a polishing service. 1,300 hours later I'm very happy I did ...vacuum gauges allow me to see when we're getting close to a change....and spin on is the right skill for those mechanically challenged like myself. I change them both when one hits 10lbs on the gauge.
 
TowLou said:
In the end the cleaner your fuel is the more life you will get from you engine. I'm all for a 2 micron final. Especially the newer engines and with this ulsd fuel you loose a little bit of lubrication in your system.
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The longer the engine life? Injectors will last longer but I doubt super clean fuel extends engine life in any measurable amount.
 
Smitty: I use fuel color along with vacuum gauges. But IMO if the fuel is cloudy, or there is water or junk in the bowl something is going on.
 
One thing to keep in mind, micron rating stamped on filters is largely meaningless. Beta number is where the rubber meets the road. What is better for the Lehman, a 2 micron filter with a BN of 75% or a 10 micron of 90%? A bit of sleuthing will reveal some interesting stuff on BNs. There are even PhDs theses written on the subject.
 
sunchaser said:
One thing to keep in mind, micron rating stamped on filters is largely meaningless. Beta number is where the rubber meets the road. What is better for the Lehman, a 2 micron filter with a BN of 75% or a 10 micron of 90%? A bit of sleuthing will reveal some interesting stuff on BNs. There are even PhDs theses written on the subject.
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Good point. Here’s an easy explanation of Beta ratios written by Baldwin filters.

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/TechTips/201210TechTipsBetaRatios.pdf
 
sunchaser said:
One thing to keep in mind, micron rating stamped on filters is largely meaningless. Beta number is where the rubber meets the road. What is better for the Lehman, a 2 micron filter with a BN of 75% or a 10 micron of 90%? A bit of sleuthing will reveal some interesting stuff on BNs. There are even PhDs theses written on the subject.
Click to expand...

Larry M said:
Good point. Here’s an easy explanation of Beta ratios written by Baldwin filters.

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/TechTips/201210TechTipsBetaRatios.pdf
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Really helpful! I’m guessing—and someone please correct me—that since you have two in-line secondary filters on a Lehman, the efficiency of the pair is significantly higher than the beta number for one filter. IOW, if the #1 secondary filter is 95% efficient at removing 10 micron particles, what comes out of the #2 secondary must be pretty frickin’ clean.
 
"I doubt super clean fuel extends engine life in any measurable amount."

At 200-400 hours a year for recreational boats NOTHING will extend the engine life , as most run of the mill diesels will go 6,000 to 10,000 hours before needing an overhaul.

Most recreational diesels are KILLLED not worn out.

Overheat , ancient anti freeze , wrong oil , or most common , not serviced as the MFG suggests for storage.

With some engines a procedure is needed for over 30 days, check the workshop manual (Da Book) not the owners operating manual.
 
J105 said:
First thing I added when we bought the boat 3 years ago was Tony's 2 stage filter system with vacuum gauges...boat had been onto hard for three years and did not want to take any chances with fuel gunk or hiring a polishing service. 1,300 hours later I'm very happy I did ...vacuum gauges allow me to see when we're getting close to a change....and spin on is the right skill for those mechanically challenged like myself. I change them both when one hits 10lbs on the gauge.
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A great approach - seems like a winner.
 
bayview said:
Smitty: I use fuel color along with vacuum gauges. But IMO if the fuel is cloudy, or there is water or junk in the bowl something is going on.
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I have never seen water in a Racor even in a 25 year old boat/fuel tank.
The fuel will not be turbid when you do a pre start inspection even if it is loaded.
Vac gages tell us how many hours we had to get loading, when to change, and how to plan for trips.
What engines do you have and what are your vac readings at: new, time to change and 'limit rpm' ?
 
smitty477 said:
I have never seen water in a Racor even in a 25 year old boat/fuel tank.
?
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I had water in mine once on my ex boat, an old 34 Mainship I.

There were some "special" circumstances that winter and I think I got a lot of inside the tank condensation. The Racor 900 bowl was almost full of water when I discovered it.
 
jleonard said:
I had water in mine once on my ex boat, an old 34 Mainship I.

There were some "special" circumstances that winter and I think I got a lot of inside the tank condensation. The Racor 900 bowl was almost full of water when I discovered it.
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I bought a used boat maybe 15 years back that had sat under the gypsum conveyor off the Hudson river for 3 years. They had left the fuel fill partially open and we had about 15 gallons of water in the stb tank. We used some flexible copper tubing typically for ice maker line attached to a vane pump pump and pulled the water up to 5 gallon jugs where we let it decant out. I believe we got about 15 gallons of water out of the tank and maybe 3-4 gallons of mixed slop as well.

When we put the boat in the water we did have some fouling of fuel filters on our 100 nmile trip home but did not see any appreciable water in the separators or the Racors.
Just my only experience with water and 250 gallon tanks.
 
I spoke with Brian Smith today and the “acceptable” range of secondaries for the Lehman 135 is 2 to 10 microns. Since apparently no one makes a 2-micron element that will fit the standard filter heads on our Lehmans, 10 it will have to be. (Brian says any brand is fine except Wix/NAPA due to quality control issues.)

I ordered a 20 micron Fleetguard “mud filter,” which I’ll use when transferring fuel between tanks (agree that polishing for polishing’s sake may not be necessary, but why not filter when you have to move fuel anyway?). I’ll probably use a 120 gpm Reverso gear pump to speed up the transfer process.

Finally, this winter, I’ll probably replace the Racor 500 primaries with Fleetguard dual setups for each engine. I like the larger filtering volume and the FS1000 specs are impressive, with almost 99% efficiency at 10 microns and 95% for liquid and emulsified water. Sounds plenty good enough for me.
 

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I use WIX 33166 for my P90 CAV filters. 10 micron nominal. Racor 500 Primary with 30 micron. 1750 hours on the injectors, zero problems. I use Biobor for winter storage.

(On a prior boat Racor's took out a lot of water. Mandatory drain before engine start)
 
sunchaser said:
Where did the water come from?
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PO left prior boat on the hard for a couple of years, rain poured in through a laz hatch onto top of fuel tank. There was an access port on top of tank with bad gasket. Polished it for a couple of days but had to move the boat from Newport to Boston. I eventually made a new gasket from EPDM, end of water ingress. Very impressed with Racor's ability to separate out water.

Current boat is good. Fuel fill o-rings are still working although seam caulking around fill cap leaks so water drips down fill tube resulting in rust on top of iron tanks. Redoing the seams will be my winter project. Should be shrink wrapped by end of week and then I can start.
 
SoWhat said:
I use WIX 33166 for my P90 CAV filters. 10 micron nominal. Racor 500 Primary with 30 micron. 1750 hours on the injectors, zero problems. I use Biobor for winter storage.

(On a prior boat Racor's took out a lot of water. Mandatory drain before engine start)
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Just passing along what Brian told me—rather emphatically—about Wix/NAPA. Said he’d gotten multiple complaints. I’d originally called him with a list of questions—one of which was why I had fuel leaking out of a brand new NAPA secondary I’d just installed.
 
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