This is disturbing! (new Cutwater boat)

I came across this blog from my C Brats forum. Read it in chronological order. It's not a long read.

Everyone's worst nightmare! It also highlights the relationships between some builders and customers. Lot's to digest here.


https://www.cutwater302.com/blog?fb...7kMCGgO6edMjYGYCa7SS2XihnN0er11EWSMe3TFg9RGYA

South of Heaven said:

I came across this blog from my C Brats forum. Read it in chronological order. It's not a long read.

Everyone's worst nightmare! It also highlights the relationships between some builders and customers. Lot's to digest here.


https://www.cutwater302.com/blog?fb...7kMCGgO6edMjYGYCa7SS2XihnN0er11EWSMe3TFg9RGYA

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Total nightmare, and my heart goes out to this family.

Perhaps I'm being unkind or unfair, but as we have seen a number of Cutwaters with the factory installed "anchor package" that includes a charm bracelet sized Claw that wouldn't hold the boat downwind from a seagull fart, we concluded that this might be a great boat, but it's target market are people who have no clue about boating. The fact that the factory produces, or at least in this case, produced a vessel that would sink at the dock is sadly unsurprising.

And who assumes you don't need insurance just because the boat is new? The rocks care?

Some boats, if you turn the battery switches off, the pumps are off too. Wired that way intentionally so if you have a fuel leak into the bilge, you can stop the pumps from pumping the fuel overboard.

The owner/operator should know how the pumps operate. Especially if rolling with no insurance!

Poor design on routing the motor control cables so low without making the penetrations flood-proof. But not a unique situation. All boats can flood into the bilge if conditions get bad enough, this one just floods easier than most. It therefore counts on functional pumps. And it is not clear if the pumps were straight wired or went through the (off) batt switches.

Sad situation.

I am only seeing one side of this story. The fact that the customer had no insurance on a $300,000 boat makes me very suspicious of the whole story. I am not familiar with the Canadian dealer for cutwater. A new to boating friend of mine boat a Ranger tug from the Seattle dealer and I was very impressed with there customer service.

I am very confused about how he bought a boat at the Seattle Boat show from a Canadian dealer. Only the Seattle dealer is allowed to display at the Seattle boat show. I think there is a lot more to the story then we are hearing.

I have salvaged brand new boats with factory defects, no surprise....

But who is liable?

A disconnected hose to a live bait well is an issue, but what owner turns it on and walks away without testing it?

I am anxious to know what caused this sinking... Till the cause is know, blame is rediculous.

I feel sorry for the owner but really having trouble with buying an almost $400,000 boat and taking it on a delivery run from Port Alberni to Alaska without any insurance.

psneeld said:

I have salvaged brand new boats with factory defects, no surprise....

But who is liable?

A disconnected hose to a live bait well is an issue, but what owner turns it on and walks away without testing it?

I am anxious to know what caused this sinking... Till the cause is know, blame is rediculous.

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The surveyor gives probable reasons for the capsize in his report, all of which would be considered factory defects. Page 14.

it is a sad story. But sinking of smaller outboard or stern drive boats via stern flooding is not at all uncommon. But there is little excuse for a 30 footer to go down this way. Just shoddy building practices.

tiltrider1 said:

I am only seeing one side of this story. The fact that the customer had no insurance on a $300,000 boat makes me very suspicious of the whole story. I am not familiar with the Canadian dealer for cutwater. A new to boating friend of mine boat a Ranger tug from the Seattle dealer and I was very impressed with there customer service.

I am very confused about how he bought a boat at the Seattle Boat show from a Canadian dealer. Only the Seattle dealer is allowed to display at the Seattle boat show. I think there is a lot more to the story then we are hearing.

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He lives in Canada, and lots of Canadians visit the Seattle boat show. I doubt the manufacturers haven't figured out some way to sell a boat to a Canadian at a USboat show.

Wow.. I met these folks at Ocean Falls this past summer when they were on their way north. Sorry to hear this.

This will now be part of the boat's history, "sunk at the dock".

I am surprised the surveyor did not declare it a 'constructive loss.'

Delfin said:

He lives in Canada, and lots of Canadians visit the Seattle boat show. I doubt the manufacturers haven't figured out some way to sell a boat to a Canadian at a USboat show.

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I don’t doubt that a Canadian dealer was freelancing at the Seattle Boat show. US dealers sell boats to Canadians all the time at the Seattle boat show. Canadian dealers are not allowed to display and sell if there is a Seattle dealer in the show. He uses the Seattle dealers slogan and claim of customer service to complain about the Canadian dealer. I just think here is a lot more to this story.

Strange set if circumstances...
Looks like the factory cobbled together a setup for the buyer that wasn't thought out to say the least.
Looks like the owner knew less about boats and couldnt see for himself it was a poor installation and likely to fail.. kind of relying on blind faith it appears.
Not carrying insurance on that kind of investment is just foolish.. Im thinking MUCH worse but am trying to be civil.. who spends that kind of money then cheeps out on insurance??? this seems very suspect.
If the owner had a lick of common sense and had insured the boat the insurance company would be going after the builder and the owner wouldn't be in this situation.
Obviously he paid for the boat in cash as no bank would have let him skate without insurance.


HOLLYWOOD

tiltrider1 said:

I don’t doubt that a Canadian dealer was freelancing at the Seattle Boat show. US dealers sell boats to Canadians all the time at the Seattle boat show. Canadian dealers are not allowed to display and sell if there is a Seattle dealer in the show. He uses the Seattle dealers slogan and claim of customer service to complain about the Canadian dealer. I just think here is a lot more to this story.

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No doubt. The invoice is from the Canadian dealer, and the floor guy at the boat show probably got a 1% referral fee for his efforts. Perhaps that explains why the floor guy had little time for him, since he was talking to US clients that would generate a more substantial commission. Kind of irrelevant, though. Neither dealer is responsible for making sure that hatches or though hulls are appropriately fitted. They deal with fixing the defects when identified, and in this case, the defect apparently caused the boat to turn turtle at the dock. Since there was no insurance, it's hard to imagine this fellow scuttled his own boat, so I expect that if Cutwater values their brand, they'll find a way to take this vessel back, provide a replacement, refit the capsized boat and sell it to someone else at a bit of a discount.

If you read the surveyor's report, the "sponson" Cutwater attaches to the underside of their enormous swim platform is needed for buoyancy and physical support of two outboards hanging two feet from the transom. However, in manufacturing this, Cutwater leaves unsealed conduit penetrations between the hull and the sponson. Once the sponson fills up with water, and why wouldn't it in any kind of chop, if the bilge pump isn't working, water will flow from the pump outlet into the sponson and then into the hull. On the surface, however clueless the owner turns out to be, this appears to be a case of incredibly poor design. If an operating bilge pump in the sponson is currently critical for the survival of the vessel, the manufacturer should have come up with a sealed unit that doesn't require a fallible component.

Delfin said:

The surveyor gives probable reasons for the capsize in his report, all of which would be considered factory defects. Page 14.

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Not sure if some are defects or bad design...

This looks like the same model Cutwater that was in the slip next to mine for the Summer. Two 300hp Yamaha outboards. I first met the owner when I noticed a lot of water coming out a thru hull. It had been raining and he came down to check on his new boat. He told me the water started coming out when he turned on the main battery switches. We pulled a couple floorboards and the bilge was full of water. The bilge pump ran for at least 20 minutes. I was surprised the pump wasn't wired directly to the batteries. Not long after that we headed North for 2 1/2 months. When we returned I noticed a burned smell, and found the Cutwater had suffered some kind of fire damage the week before. Our marina manager told me that another boater had noticed the bow thruster running and no one was on board. When they went to check, they found smoke coming out from the starboard side of the cockpit, where the batteries are located. They immediately started two hoses on it and called the fire department, who showed up in three minutes. They cut the main battery cables and got everything cooled down before a major fire could get started. They pulled out three batteries that were melted half way down. The cabin wiring was melted and there was major smoke damage inside. The boat was pulled out of the water and inspected by someone from Cutwater and an insurance investigator. I do not know the outcome of the investigation, but I think it's a total loss. The boat is still sitting on the trailer in our parking lot.

rochepoint said:

I feel sorry for the owner but really having trouble with buying an almost $400,000 boat and taking it on a delivery run from Port Alberni to Alaska without any insurance.

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Not onboard with the no insurance thing (what about liability?), but if the buyer was not an experienced boater, why wouldn’t they think it was ok to go to Alaska on a maiden voyage. Lots of people buy $500k motor homes and head off cross-country the next day, buy $80k trucks and set off on 1000mi trips. And why shouldn’t a $400k boat be just as reliable from the get-go?

Basically, the builder is selling a shoddy product and then doing their best not to take responsibility. The nationality of the selling dealer is completely irrelevant as is the builders and the buyers: the product, the boat, was not “fit for purpose “ and should never have been sold with such a fundamental defect.

porman said:

This looks like the same model Cutwater that was in the slip next to mine for the Summer. Two 300hp Yamaha outboards. I first met the owner when I noticed a lot of water coming out a thru hull. It had been raining and he came down to check on his new boat. He told me the water started coming out when he turned on the main battery switches. We pulled a couple floorboards and the bilge was full of water. The bilge pump ran for at least 20 minutes. I was surprised the pump wasn't wired directly to the batteries. Not long after that we headed North for 2 1/2 months. When we returned I noticed a burned smell, and found the Cutwater had suffered some kind of fire damage the week before. Our marina manager told me that another boater had noticed the bow thruster running and no one was on board. When they went to check, they found smoke coming out from the starboard side of the cockpit, where the batteries are located. They immediately started two hoses on it and called the fire department, who showed up in three minutes. They cut the main battery cables and got everything cooled down before a major fire could get started. They pulled out three batteries that were melted half way down. The cabin wiring was melted and there was major smoke damage inside. The boat was pulled out of the water and inspected by someone from Cutwater and an insurance investigator. I do not know the outcome of the investigation, but I think it's a total loss. The boat is still sitting on the trailer in our parking lot.

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See bold above.

With pumps wired through batt switches, sounds like operator error to leave boat unattended with batts off. Pumps now inop.

It can be argued whether it is a good idea to have pumps through batt switches, but it is incumbent on the operator to know his system.

psneeld said:

Not sure if some are defects or bad design...

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Surveyor identified some potential issues and correctly proposed some additional power on tests to narrow things down. A mechanical engineer or marine architect would then be required to analyze the design to see if it meets appropriate standards. It then becomes a battle between the expert witnesses.

If the bilge pumps were not hard wired to the battery then the owners manual may have had specific instructions on operation. Surveyor did not reference manual. If owner did not follow manual then he would be SOL.

ABYC standards do not mandate hard wired pumps. I believe most installations have an auto switch with a manual override. Surveyor did not mention position of switch. Also note that ABYC only addresses pumps used for normal spray, rainwater and spillage. It does not set standards for damage control pumps.

Cutwater claims their boats are certified to NMMA (ABYC) standards. Their literature states the 302 is supplied with 2 12V auto bilge pumps. I suspect they would argue that it was not forseeable that an owner would dock stern to large waves and the installed bilge pumps were not designed to deal with a swamping condition.

Owner is fighting an uphill battle.

How could it “not be foreseeable” that waves might come from the stern quarter? Is it also unforeseeable that the wind might shift direction too? Again: the product, as sold, was not fit for purpose. It could not be used as a boat as delivered and when it was, it sank at the dock. The abysmal build quality and horrendous customer service is another matter altogether.

I still cannot get over the fact that he did not have insurance.
What was his thinking/reason?
Does he drive his car w/o insurance?

SoWhat said:

Surveyor identified some potential issues and correctly proposed some additional power on tests to narrow things down. A mechanical engineer or marine architect would then be required to analyze the design to see if it meets appropriate standards. It then becomes a battle between the expert witnesses.

If the bilge pumps were not hard wired to the battery then the owners manual may have had specific instructions on operation. Surveyor did not reference manual. If owner did not follow manual then he would be SOL.

ABYC standards do not mandate hard wired pumps. I believe most installations have an auto switch with a manual override. Surveyor did not mention position of switch. Also note that ABYC only addresses pumps used for normal spray, rainwater and spillage. It does not set standards for damage control pumps.

Cutwater claims their boats are certified to NMMA (ABYC) standards. Their literature states the 302 is supplied with 2 12V auto bilge pumps. I suspect they would argue that it was not forseeable that an owner would dock stern to large waves and the installed bilge pumps were not designed to deal with a swamping condition.

Owner is fighting an uphill battle.

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Couldn't find the operators manual for the 32, but this is the language from the 30 regarding bilge pumps:

BILGE PUMP SYSTEM
The bilge pumps operate automatically with electronic float switches when all switches and breakers are in the OFF position. However, the BILGE PUMP and BILGE PUMP2 will run continuously once their switches are placed in the on position. Monitor the outflow accordingly. Do not run when dry.


Doesn't sound like they wired the pumps through the main battery switch, but directly. However, if you look at the wiring diagram, if I am reading it correctly, it indicates exactly the opposite. Go figure.

Only ones to come out ahead on this deal will be the lawyers.

Woodland Hills said:

How could it “not be foreseeable” that waves might come from the stern quarter? Is it also unforeseeable that the wind might shift direction too? Again: the product, as sold, was not fit for purpose. It could not be used as a boat as delivered and when it was, it sank at the dock. The abysmal build quality and horrendous customer service is another matter altogether.

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And what did they say about a following sea?

Bilge pump are inexpensive insurance.
The bilge pump shown is, IMO, good enough to drain a fish tank.

My boat came with one bilge pump in the ER. Now it has 4 bilge pumps with float switches, one in every compartment connected to bilge pump counter, high water alarm and 4 inch fire bell.

I also have a spare pump with battery clips (long cord) with a long discharge hose.

The builder understandable believed only one pump was necessary because the ER has all the hull valves. It is designed so each compartment is water tight, supposedly. It is that "supposedly" that motivated me to add 3 more bilge pumps. The boat is designed to have 'dry bilges' and all bilges are dry except when I wash them. Then, it takes a wet vac to get what little water there is after washing.

Delfin said:

Couldn't find the operators manual for the 32, but this is the language from the 30 regarding bilge pumps:

Doesn't sound like they wired the pumps through the main battery switch, but directly. However, if you look at the wiring diagram, if I am reading it correctly, it indicates exactly the opposite. Go figure.

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Schematics are very confusing. Appears to be 4 batteries, each with Battery switch. Thruster battery feeds an 8 position sub panel then to bilge pumps that appear to be routed through a 30A breaker and then through 5A fuses located on a fuse block to the float switch. The wipers go through the same 30A breaker. CO2 and hi water alarm are on the same fuse block.

Text claims pumps run on auto if switches are off or manually if on. Makes no sense. If the breaker is off then there is no current. Period. Maybe they meant to wire the pumps to the hot side of the breaker that has dual lugs??? Guessing because that is contrary to what the schematic says.

Still leaves the question of what happens when Thruster battery switch is off.
As previously stated. lawyers will be smiling.

+1 on not understanding why someone would not have insurance. Heck, I keep minimal insurance on my 15 foot West Wight Potter sailboat. Don't need any liability worries.

I seem to have read numerous stories of boats sinking because bilge pumps not on or not working. When I get a boat that stays in the water, definitely will pay attention to the bilge pumps and likely install additional pump(s) as well.

Jim

OldDan1943 said:

This will now be part of the boat's history, "sunk at the dock".

I am surprised the surveyor did not declare it a 'constructive loss.'

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Dan, on Page 7 of the first Surveyors Report he did state that it was a Total Constructive Loss.

As someone else said, it may have sunk due to design flaws but something is missing in this story. 1,900 mile cruise with no insurance because everything is covered under warrantee? Maybe it's just me but he sounded sort of like a jerk from his first email to the dealer. Wonder what the dealer would have to say....

When he buys another boat I hope he spends more energy on worrying about the basics i.e. number and size of bilge pumps and less about the bar-b-que.

SoWhat said:

Schematics are very confusing. Appears to be 4 batteries, each with Battery switch. Thruster battery feeds an 8 position sub panel then to bilge pumps that appear to be routed through a 30A breaker and then through 5A fuses located on a fuse block to the float switch. The wipers go through the same 30A breaker. CO2 and hi water alarm are on the same fuse block.

Text claims pumps run on auto if switches are off or manually if on. Makes no sense. If the breaker is off then there is no current. Period. Maybe they meant to wire the pumps to the hot side of the breaker that has dual lugs??? Guessing because that is contrary to what the schematic says.

Still leaves the question of what happens when Thruster battery switch is off.
As previously stated. lawyers will be smiling.

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Where are you seeing this? Not the schematic Delfin posted?

No winners in this one. I feel for the owner. I read the whole blog and if what he has posted is true, I was pretty unhappy before the boat sunk with how he was treated.

I was a potential Ranger Tugs / Cutwater boat buyer a year or so ago. After looking at a few and doing my due diligence. I rather quickly noticed that questionable design choices were often made across their model lines. I lost interest.

Anyone who frequents the Tugnuts message board will notice (if you aren't blind to it by brand loyalty) that a TON of these boats are delivered with basic issues. None more than the one shown in this thread though. The manufacturer is constantly having to correct issues after delivery. The members of that forum applaud them and say it is great "customer service", which may be true, but I suppose to me, it led me to believe they are making enough money on these boats to afford to spend triple or 10x on small repairs which any normal company would not allow to happen.

And realistically, if a boat manufacturer can't hook up a shower sump pump up correctly or be bothered to tighten bolts on a steering rod, but then can afford to send a repair tech hundreds of miles to repair minor issues, what does it tell you?

To me it means they are building boats too fast, at low quality and at too high of a price.

However much of a ninny the owner might turn out to be, or not to be, I think what happened is pretty obvious. Cutwater had a successful 30' hull powered by an inboard diesel. They wanted to offer an outboard powered version, so someone did the calcs to see what additional flotation in the stern would be needed to hang a couple of 600# outboards off that stern. That determined the size of the "sponson", which in turn determined the size of the swim platform. However, they still had to route fuel and control lines to the outboards, so rather than have them cross over the top of the swim platform they routed them through the sponson. To save a few $, the penetrations through the hull, which are now very near the waterline because they travel under the swim platform, were not made watertight. No problem, just run down to West Marine and throw in a $30 bilge pump to deal with the inevitable ingress of water to the sponson. Whether it failed, was wired incorrectly or the owner read the manual that said the bilge pumps were powered regardless of battery switching so disconnected the batteries I have no idea. However, the amateurishness of the engineering proved inadequate to deal with a bit of chop, so the boat capsized.