Displacement or Planing Hull?

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dave907

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Hi All:

I'm new to this forum, so I apologize if I'm starting a conversation that has already been worn out. If I am, please just tell me where to look for the old thread.

In the next 3-5 years the admiral and I will be moving onboard a boat for at least three months each Winter. We are 99% interested in staying in the Caribbean for this time. We charter in the BVI's each year, but are looking at starting in the Bahamas/Exumas for our first Winter.

In looking to upgrade from my current 2002 Bayliner 3988 to a larger vessel, I'm torn between deep, heavy boats like a Nordhavn, Krogen, etc. and something that has the ability to get up and go to outrun weather, cross the Gulf Stream quickly, etc. Our budget is $750k or less.

I'm from Alaska and grew up in the commercial fishery, so I lean toward the big, heavy, slow girls that cruise at 8-9 knots like the fishing boats I spent most summers onboard. I owned a CHB 34' for a decade in Alaska and loved the high freeboard, simple mechanical systems and the Lehman 120. However, having boated in SW Florida for the last six years, I've come to appreciate the "safety" features of being able to outrun a thunderstorm at 25 knots and getting into shallow anchorages that deeper drafts would preclude.

I'd be very interested in hearing from others who have actually spent significant time in the Caribbean. Would you rather have a boat that can get up on step and cruise at 18-22 knots when needed, and draws less than 4'? Or would you prefer deep, heavy, stabilized boat that moves waves rather than gets moved by them?

I do realize I'm essentially asking the question: "Which is better, Catholic or Protestant?" or "Which is better, Democrat or Republican?" So please feel free to let you personal bias run free.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience and insight.

Dave Stephens
 
Welcome aboard. Experienced mariners are always welcome and helpful.
The forum has "boat search 101" which I found very helpful.
Check the library and thread search functions to see earlier discussions on this topic.
There are many opinions in the forums, so it may come down to how you most enjoy using your time on your boat.
Your budget should reach to anything you need, so the self analysis as to what you and the admiral will most enjoy will be as important as looking at boats.
Enjoy the search.
JohnS, Cheoy Lee 40 LRC
 
It seems that whenever it gets snotty with 8'+ short period waves, that is the time to slow down if you are in a fast trawler. So perhaps you could outrun the weather if you knew it was coming, but i doubt that having high speed capability will let you get there faster in the middle of that weather.

Some other pros and cons of the full displacement hull boats that you mentioned vs higher powered semi-planing "fast trawler" hulls:

The FD boat gets better fuel economy at or below its displacement speed. The hull shape differences required to get beyond displacement speed for a semi-displacement hull hurt fuel economy. But it sounds like that isn't a big consideration for you.

The FD hull rolls more but at a longer period with less snap than a full displacement hull. In moderate seas a full displacement hull is usually more comfortable. When the seas kick up you have to go faster in a SD hull to stay comfortable until the seas rise to the point where you must slow down. The FD hull has the edge at that point.

In general if I had to tough out 10' foot seas offshore, I would much rather be in a FD Nordhavn or Krogen than in a SD fast trawler. They are also built tougher than their fast trawler counterparts.

I don't know where you plan to go but the draft of a Krogen 48 is 5 feet which will get you into almost all ports and anchorages in the Bahamas and Caribbean. A Krogen Express 52 which meets your definition of a fast trawler has a draft of 1' less.

David
 
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Conventional wisdom, as you already know, says the heavy, full displacement hulls are built to safely handle rough seas, planning hulls are built for more speed. Will you encounter rough seas in the Caribbean? You betcha!


Having said that, your budget probably allows you to acquire a large enough planning boat to handle most conditions you will encounter, within reason. There is a reason you don't see a lot of planning hulls cruising the Caribbean.



Bahamas is a bit different - you see many larger planning boats cruising the Bahamas. Although the planning hulls have a shallower draft than displacement hulls, your running gear is less protected, a factor to consider when running aground....I mean, around in the Bahamas! Personally, I have been fishing/cruising the Bahamas for 25 years and never touched bottom but it happens a lot with visiting boaters.


Bottom line, I wouldn't be concerned with displacement vs. planning hull for your plans and budget, simply get the boat that fits your boating lifestyle.
 
Wifey B: Conventional wisdom.....:confused: Not always so.

I think the OP's thoughts aren't all that wise either if his only reason for wanting a faster boat is to outrun weather. Betting on that ability is a dangerous bet. :nonono:

Now to conventional wisdom. Yes, boats like Nordhavn and KK do handle rough seas well, but so do boats like Hatteras and Viking and many full displacement boats don't handle seas well at all so don't assume just because a boat is slow it will handle seas well and just because it's fast it won't.

Now, you have to figure out what is right for you. Shallow draft and speed help a lot exploring the Bahamas. Deep draft and sturdy comes in handy in the Caribbean. Whichever way you go you need a boat that can handle rough seas based on your desire to cruise the Caribbean. That eliminates many boats of all types.

Type boat comes to other things. How important is fuel to you? How important is speed? I couldn't live with 8 to 9 knots, doesn't matter what boat, but that's me. I do like being able to run to the Bahamas in a few hours. However, speed comes at a cost.

Your best choice may be a semi of some sort which isn't the top speed but good speed and isn't the lowest fuel usage but acceptable to you. There are full's with reasonable drafts. There are planers that are very seaworthy. There's lots in between. Just look and think and talk and think and look and think and suddenly the right boat for you will be there and you'll see it without labeling it, that can come later. :D
 
Are sportfishermen and convertibles planing hills? If so there are a lot of them in the Caribbean and they seem to go out in some pretty snotty conditions. For 2/3’s of your budget a couple could find a stabilized Viking or Hatteras convertible in the 55’ to 65’ range that will handle bigger seas than you can and be a comfortable floating home. They will also give trawler-like economy when run at hull speed.
 
Woodland Hills said:
Are sportfishermen and convertibles planing hills? If so there are a lot of them in the Caribbean and they seem to go out in some pretty snotty conditions. For 2/3’s of your budget a couple could find a stabilized Viking or Hatteras convertible in the 55’ to 65’ range that will handle bigger seas than you can and be a comfortable floating home. They will also give trawler-like economy when run at hull speed.
Click to expand...

Wifey B: Oh and to add, whichever one you get for this use, you need it stabilized. :)

Yes, they are planing. :)
 
BandB said:
Wifey B: Oh and to add, whichever one you get for this use, you need it stabilized. :)

Yes, they are planing. :)
Click to expand...

Hi,

Do I :confused: understand that Nordhavn and other FDs also require stabilization and if the losing system is no longer a nice ride?

Also I can not help but wonder why SD hull Fleming overturns the myth of SD vs FD ?

NBs
 
There are docks in the Carib , but most folks anchor out most of the time.

A planing boat has to be very light and requires chines to fly on when running fast.

This configuration sucks at damping motion when anchored , perhaps 99% of the time in the Carib.

Go fast to get there quick to bounce like an empty box ?

No thanks.
 
dave907 said:
Hi All:

I'm new to this forum, so I apologize if I'm starting a conversation that has already been worn out. If I am, please just tell me where to look for the old thread.

In the next 3-5 years the admiral and I will be moving onboard a boat for at least three months each Winter. We are 99% interested in staying in the Caribbean for this time. We charter in the BVI's each year, but are looking at starting in the Bahamas/Exumas for our first Winter.

In looking to upgrade from my current 2002 Bayliner 3988 to a larger vessel, I'm torn between deep, heavy boats like a Nordhavn, Krogen, etc. and something that has the ability to get up and go to outrun weather, cross the Gulf Stream quickly, etc. Our budget is $750k or less.

I'm from Alaska and grew up in the commercial fishery, so I lean toward the big, heavy, slow girls that cruise at 8-9 knots like the fishing boats I spent most summers onboard. I owned a CHB 34' for a decade in Alaska and loved the high freeboard, simple mechanical systems and the Lehman 120. However, having boated in SW Florida for the last six years, I've come to appreciate the "safety" features of being able to outrun a thunderstorm at 25 knots and getting into shallow anchorages that deeper drafts would preclude.

I'd be very interested in hearing from others who have actually spent significant time in the Caribbean. Would you rather have a boat that can get up on step and cruise at 18-22 knots when needed, and draws less than 4'? Or would you prefer deep, heavy, stabilized boat that moves waves rather than gets moved by them?

I do realize I'm essentially asking the question: "Which is better, Catholic or Protestant?" or "Which is better, Democrat or Republican?" So please feel free to let you personal bias run free.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience and insight.

Dave Stephens
Click to expand...

Hello Dave - do you also own a 1991 - 4788 Bayliner now as well?
 
North Baltic sea said:
Hi,

Do I :confused: understand that Nordhavn and other FDs also require stabilization and if the losing system is no longer a nice ride?

Also I can not help but wonder why SD hull Fleming overturns the myth of SD vs FD ?

NBs
Click to expand...

Wifey B: My opinion is that I'd want stabilization on a Nordhavn and on most other FD's. Yes. :D

Myths are myths and overturning is as easy as sunny side up. :rofl:

There are no true SD's, FD's, PD's, but really a bazillion hull forms turned into these things they call boats. That's why one needs to go beyond the labels into actual boats and their specific characteristics. :)
 
BandB said:
Your best choice may be a semi of some sort which isn't the top speed but good speed and isn't the lowest fuel usage but acceptable to you
Click to expand...
Good advise! It only took me 9 boats and about 25 years to arrive at this conclusion.:speed boat: Given your desired data, an older one of these would serve you well!

Fleming 55 Motor Yachts
 

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dave907 said:
I'm new to this forum, so I apologize if I'm starting a conversation that has already been worn out. If I am, please just tell me where to look for the old thread.

I do realize I'm essentially asking the question: "Which is better, Catholic or Protestant?" or "Which is better, Democrat or Republican?" So please feel free to let you personal bias run free.
Click to expand...


One of the answers is probably "yes."

It might help you to use the Advanced Search feature to search out the many related threads.

-Chris
 
smitty477 said:
Hello Dave - do you also own a 1991 - 4788 Bayliner now as well?
Click to expand...

Nope! I've owned a 3870 Bayliner before the 2002 3988 Bayliner I own now. I also own a 1988 32' 3288 Bayliner that I keep in Alaska for Summer cruising, but never a 4788.
 
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dave907 said:
Nope! I've owned a 3870 Bayliner before the 2002 3988 Bayliner I own now. I also own a 1988 32' 3288 Bayliner that I keep in Alaska for Summer cruising, but never a 4788.
Click to expand...

Thanks ...wow - another Dave Stevens has a 4788 for sale in Alaska on the Baylinerownersclub now. What a coincidence!!
 
Spent 10 years in the Eastern Caribbean. Yes we saw sport fish. Usually based there or flew in decent weather. Almost all were greater than the 50+ ft limit that defines the majority of Caribbean cruising boats.

As to trawlers they were essentially full displacement when 50 ft or less. We saw a Nordic Tug based in the Virgins which came south once a year.

There is a reason the cruisers select full displacement . Frequently we saw 5ft+ on the beam (I should say usually not frequently). It was a great day when the waves dropped below 4.5ft.
 
WifyB wrote;
“Wifey B: Oh and to add, whichever one you get for this use, you need it stabilized.”

There’s lots of different kinds of FD boats. Some narrow some wide. Some hard chine some soft. Some heavy even w ballast and others fairly light. Most are seaworthy some are not. Most FD boats don’t have stabilization equipment.

And if you want speed you’ll need lots and lots of money for fuel. Then you may .. just may outrun a storm. Very unlikely but I’’ve never been to the area where the OP is going.

A stabilized 40’ Willard would probably work if it was big enough for the OP. Or a KK. A SD meant for ocean travel would be hard to find and it would offer almost nothing that a planing hull woulf and very little of the FD.

So I’m thinking a heavy SD w a good rep for big water work that would be capable of running at hull speed or a knot or so above.
 
Nomad Willy said:
Most FD boats don’t have stabilization equipment.

.
Click to expand...

Wifey B: Actually most that cruise offshore have some form of stablization today, whether fins or flopper stoppers. Of those that don't, most could use some. Most, not all, get very uncomfortable in beam seas without it. The trend is toward stabilization. :)
 
Hi Wifey B;
OK but up here it's not so.
But our waters are much more protected. You can run a 14' OB boat to Alaska by roughing it some and watching weather. And obviously one can change course 15 degrees or so to avoid excessive rolling.
 
Nomad Willy said:
Hi Wifey B;
OK but up here it's not so.
But our waters are much more protected. You can run a 14' OB boat to Alaska by roughing it some and watching weather. And obviously one can change course 15 degrees or so to avoid excessive rolling.
Click to expand...

Wifey B: OP's question was about the Caribbean though. :rolleyes:

And you might have a higher tolerance for rolling than most newer cruisers would have. You can make it without stabilization, but stabilizers sure help the enjoyment factor. :)
 
A big planing hull burns 30 to 60 gph at speed. Because the engines are big, even idling along burns more fuel than a displacement hull. And the turbo engines have to be rebuilt more often because of the heat running at top rpm. A displacement hull will have engines of about 1/4 of the hp of the big engines. My 83' displacement hull will do 12 knots flat out but cruises at 10 knots using 1 gl/nm.
 
Lepke said:
A big planing hull burns 30 to 60 gph at speed. Because the engines are big, even idling along burns more fuel than a displacement hull. And the turbo engines have to be rebuilt more often because of the heat running at top rpm. A displacement hull will have engines of about 1/4 of the hp of the big engines. My 83' displacement hull will do 12 knots flat out but cruises at 10 knots using 1 gl/nm.
Click to expand...

All true but then there are more planing boats sold for recreational use than full displacement. Clearly, there's a place for both.

As a comparison, an 85' Pacific Mariner will run 27 knots at WOT and cruise at 23-24 knots. At 23 knots, it uses 4 gallons per nautical mile. However, at 10 knots it will get 0.71 nmpg or use 1.4 gallons per nautical mile. So, at 10 knots your boat is 40% more efficient.

Now the larger the boat being discussed the greater percentage that will be full displacement. I'd been around boating for 40 years before I even knew there were full displacement boats. To my knowledge, there were none on the lake but that was boats primarily 30' and less.
 
One aspect I haven't seen mentioned so far is rolling at anchor. We've spent the last 8 months all over the Bahamas, mostly anchoring, and have had a half-dozen nights that were downright uncomfortable because of a side swell. Our full displacement hull rolls a LOT in that situation, and we don't have anything to lessen it. If you expect to be anchoring, you may want to consider flopper stoppers, or if you like to run your air con all the time (hence, your generator), maybe a Seakeeper (or other brand) gyro stabilizer. (They use a lot of electricity, so you have to run the gennie to use them.)

As for running from weather, and crossing the Gulf Stream quicker... my opinion is that it would be nice sometimes to have some speed for exactly those situations. Case in point: we were in Key West last year when it became clear that Irma was coming to the Keys. At 7 kts, though, we didn't feel like we had the option of getting out, because we couldn't get that far in the remaining 4 days we had to go. At 20 kts, I'm pretty sure we would have gone elsewhere. So no, you can't get out of a squall that you're already in... but with radar and 20 kts, you can probably skirt most sqalls that you see forming. And if it's a hurricane coming, you most definitely have the ability to relocate well out of the projected path, if you don't mind burning a lot of fuel.

And who doesn't want to cross the Gulf Stream in half or 1/3 the time, if it's 3' and 5 seconds?

They key factor for us in choosing a hull type, when we were boat shopping, was fuel economy, followed very closely by engine room space. We chose a single engine FD hull for the slightly-better-than 1nmpg, and a walk-in engine room with 360 degree access to the main engine.

Oh... to really stir things up... what about a motor cat? We've seen some absolutely beautiful boats of that configuration - Horizon and Endeavour come to mind. And if you like living space, you just can't beat a cat.
 
Dave907
Yes, as noted, FD hulls benefit greatly from stabilization. If you're ever on one, turn off the stabilizers and note the difference. North Baltic and Codger are right about Flemings. Solid well built vessels. We spent some time with Tony and crew this past summer aboard his 65'er. His vessel, voyages, distance traveled and trip planning are amazing.

Lots of choices for the OP whether displacement or SD. My favorites in his price range are the FD Nordhavn 47 and DeFever 56. The really good ones sell in a flash though, I've been looking for same and have been late to the party several times.

Flemings are much more expensive. You could always stretch your budget, but other choices are out there. Keep an eye out for the Pacific Mariner 65. Designed by Bill Garden and Greg Marshall. And with Westport build quality.

Good luck in you hunt, sounds like you're on the right track and have received some good advice.
 
BrianSmith said:
One aspect I haven't seen mentioned so far is rolling at anchor. We've spent the last 8 months all over the Bahamas, mostly anchoring, and have had a half-dozen nights that were downright uncomfortable because of a side swell. Our full displacement hull rolls a LOT in that situation, and we don't have anything to lessen it. If you expect to be anchoring, you may want to consider flopper stoppers, or if you like to run your air con all the time (hence, your generator), maybe a Seakeeper (or other brand) gyro stabilizer. (They use a lot of electricity, so you have to run the gennie to use them.)

I didn't realize that a gyro stabilizer or seakeeper would stabilize a boat stationary at anchor ?
Click to expand...
 
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I see that since most all of our waters in the PNW are protected from ocean slop or seas the FD hulled boat is much more usable and add to that most anchorages are protected even from other boat wakes.

And FD boats like the Allweather have much more fuel burn advantage than boats with partially submerged transoms. Sailboats don’t have submerged transoms for that reason.
 
dave907 said:
Nope! I've owned a 3870 Bayliner before the 2002 3988 Bayliner I own now. I also own a 1988 32' 3288 Bayliner that I keep in Alaska for Summer cruising, but never a 4788.
Click to expand...

Hello Dave

I have a 4788 in Seward Alaska
 
bogranjac1 said:
I didn't realize that a gyro stabilizer or seakeeper would stabilize a boat stationary at anchor ?
Click to expand...

Have to run a genset continually though so flopper stoppers being cheap and zero fuel for the win.
 
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