Washington to Mexico Caravan

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Yes, I had to hire a legal firm that specializes in maritime law. I had to put the boat in a LLC. So I guess it's no longer a boat it's a corporation, lol. I should respond to the other thread about "What Makes a Trawler a Trawler". Unless it's a corporation, ha ha ha ha :lol:

P.S. I believe it's sales tax not use tax. May also avoid property tax. If you buy a boat that's in an LLC you don't have to pay sales tax. I believe "use tax" is what the local government charges businesses for all the supplies and personal property that is used to conduct business. Basically double taxation. Or what is also known as taxation without representation. So when I can get around paying a tax legally I feel pretty good. I'm not a maritime or tax lawyer so please check me on this stuff.

No, on your sales tax vs use tax. Sales tax is tax collected at the time of sale. Use tax is the payment of the equivalent of sales tax if sales tax was not collected. If you buy a boat in State A, you either pay sales tax or get an exemption at that time. Then you take it to State B and if you didn't pay sales tax up front, you'll pay use tax. On Sales Tax, the seller is responsible for collecting it from the buyer. On use tax, the buyer is responsible for paying it.

Sales and Use tax laws are written in such a way as to avoid any double taxation. Businesses pay use taxes when they used an exemption to not pay sales taxes.

And no, your boat isn't a corporation. It's still a boat, owned by a Limited Liability Company (also not a corporation).
 
No, on your sales tax vs use tax. Sales tax is tax collected at the time of sale. Use tax is the payment of the equivalent of sales tax if sales tax was not collected. If you buy a boat in State A, you either pay sales tax or get an exemption at that time. Then you take it to State B and if you didn't pay sales tax up front, you'll pay use tax. On Sales Tax, the seller is responsible for collecting it from the buyer. On use tax, the buyer is responsible for paying it.

Sales and Use tax laws are written in such a way as to avoid any double taxation. Businesses pay use taxes when they used an exemption to not pay sales taxes.

And no, your boat isn't a corporation. It's still a boat, owned by a Limited Liability Company (also not a corporation).

Brand,

Corporations must be treated differently regarding the use tax or it wouldn't be worth doing the LLC thing. I just read that sales tax is assessed on a new boat. Use tax is assessed on a used boat. That must be the way out of paying either. Being in an LLC the sales tax is not paid and since it's new the use tax is not paid either. I'm going to have a talk with the law firm that set it up because my head is starting to spin!

As far as the boat being a corporation - that was a joke with another thread in mind. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone pointed that out.
 
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Brand,

Corporations must be treated differently regarding the use tax or it wouldn't be worth doing the LLC thing. I just read that sales tax is assessed on a new boat. Use tax is assessed on a used boat. That must be the way out of paying either. Being in an LLC the sales tax is not paid and since it's new the use tax is not paid either. I'm going to have a talk with the law firm that set it up because my head is starting to spin!

As far as the boat being a corporation - that was a joke with another thread in mind. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone pointed that out.

I didn't say anything about how corporations or LLC's get treated. Here's why an LLC saves taxes in some states, and make sure everyone knows that it's only some state.

First, sales tax is assessed on used boats if they're sold. If they're purchased without sales tax paid, then use tax is assessed.

If an LLC buys a boat it pays sales tax just like an individual. The difference is that you have a boat in an LLC, you can sell members shares of the LLC and not the boat. Therefore, the ownership of the boat did not change. So, no tax. That's true in most states. A few see through that and still charge.

Also, don't call LLC's Corporations. There are completely different laws and tax laws for the two. While there are some similarities, there are many differences.
 
Brand,

Corporations must be treated differently regarding the use tax or it wouldn't be worth doing the LLC thing. I just read that sales tax is assessed on a new boat. Use tax is assessed on a used boat. That must be the way out of paying either. Being in an LLC the sales tax is not paid and since it's new the use tax is not paid either. I'm going to have a talk with the law firm that set it up because my head is starting to spin!

DirtDoc I think you got some bad advice, or your interpretation needs some polishing up. I am neither CPA nor Tax Attorney, but I was an owner of a California C Corp, with a resale license, for 32 years. As a young businessperson I ran afoul of the State Board of Equalization (that's the sales tax authority in Cali, y'all), had a judgement against us, protested, lost, paid the tax owed. Thereafter I had ~25 clean years of audits, due to understanding quite well how sales tax worked in my business (which was not boats).

First, the Board does not distinguish between individuals or partnerships or any form or corporation. All are known as "taxpayers."

Second, ALL sales/use tax consideration is based on the "exchange of tangible personal property." It's absolutely vital to understand this, it's the key to why some exchanges are not subject to sales/use tax.

When a taxpayer acquires a piece of tangible personal property for its own use (as opposed to resale), sales or use tax is owed. Examples:

  • You as an individual purchase a camera from B&H photo in NYC. They are not permatized in Cali, thus they do not collect sales tax. However YOU owe the use tax to the Board. But no one does this as Cali has no way to collect this info.

  • Your corporation has a resale license and purchases a camera from B&H photo in NYC for use in it's business. Again, B&H collects no sales tax. The corporation owes use tax, and if it fails to pay it, this will be picked up on audit and you will eventually pay, plus a fine. (Every entity with a resale license is audited, the SBOE had 3,600 employees at the time of my first audit in the early 90's.)

  • Your LLC, which does not hold a resale license, purchases an asset like a boat or car for its own use. Sales tax is owed if a new boat/car, use tax if it is used OR brought in from another state.
However:

  • You own an LLC, which owns a boat. You list the LLC for sale, and someone else buys the shares from you. No exchange of tangible personal property as taken place as the LLC is not such. Thus (theoretically), no use tax is owed by the buyer of your LLC, and he now additionally has your boat.

Thus, as far as sales/use tax goes, the benefit of owning a boat in an LLC is not enjoyed by you, the original purchaser. It is a benefit to the person you are selling the LLC (and boat it owns) to. And thus perhaps you command a higher price than Seller B, because Buyer knows he will have to pay use tax on Seller B's boat.

I believe all the above to be true, at least for Cali. I have "heard" of language in other states along the lines of "if the sole purpose of the LLC is to avoid sales/use tax....."

BUT!

It does appear to be true in Cali that if you keep that boat out of the Cali for one year you do not have to pay sales/use tax. I personally know of people that have done this, and googling around it still seems viable. As Cali is very voracious about tax revenues, I can only assume that back in the day there were powerful lawmakers, or friends of lawmakers, that put this loophole in place for their own benefit, and it hasn't been remedied.

It really makes no sense at all. I guarantee you that if say you move from Oregon to Cali, along with your five year old car, you are going to pay use tax on that car! Or say you came from a state with 5% sales tax, you are going to pay the difference (if any is left considering depreciation).

As has been covered extensively in several threads, we certainly don't have that loophole in WA state where I now live. If you are a WA resident, with a boat in WA, you are going to pay sales/use tax period.

So enjoy that "one year" loophole. But forget this idea that as far as acquiring a boat, being some type of corp or corp like entity means sales/use tax isn't owed (assuming one is not using the one year loophole). I'm amazed that it exists. And also know that the SBOE has an armada of lawyers on staff. It's no skin off their nose to attempt to obtain sales/use tax revenues from taxpayers no matter how sketchy their argument. You simply would not believe what I saw during my education process. In my experience, the SBOE will never provide you with written clearance that if you do x,y,z you will not owe tax.

BTW, here is their web page with advice on this subject:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub52.pdf

Postscript. I have found over the years that most CPA's do not have comprehensive knowledge about sales tax/SBOE. If I was looking for the best advice I could pay for, I would look to a Tax Attorney practice with a specialization in sales tax/SBOE. I.e. an attorney that defends people being sued by the SBOE.
 
There is Puerto Salinas between Ensenada and San Diego, but it's poorly marked and a private marina inside the bar. I'm sure in an emergency you could put in there but it's only another 30 miles or so to Ensenada.
 
DirtDoc I think you got some bad advice, or your interpretation needs some polishing up. I am neither CPA nor Tax Attorney, but I was an owner of a California C Corp, with a resale license, for 32 years. As a young businessperson I ran afoul of the State Board of Equalization (that's the sales tax authority in Cali, y'all), had a judgement against us, protested, lost, paid the tax owed. Thereafter I had ~25 clean years of audits, due to understanding quite well how sales tax worked in my business (which was not boats).

First, the Board does not distinguish between individuals or partnerships or any form or corporation. All are known as "taxpayers."

Second, ALL sales/use tax consideration is based on the "exchange of tangible personal property." It's absolutely vital to understand this, it's the key to why some exchanges are not subject to sales/use tax.

When a taxpayer acquires a piece of tangible personal property for its own use (as opposed to resale), sales or use tax is owed. Examples:

  • You as an individual purchase a camera from B&H photo in NYC. They are not permatized in Cali, thus they do not collect sales tax. However YOU owe the use tax to the Board. But no one does this as Cali has no way to collect this info.

  • Your corporation has a resale license and purchases a camera from B&H photo in NYC for use in it's business. Again, B&H collects no sales tax. The corporation owes use tax, and if it fails to pay it, this will be picked up on audit and you will eventually pay, plus a fine. (Every entity with a resale license is audited, the SBOE had 3,600 employees at the time of my first audit in the early 90's.)

  • Your LLC, which does not hold a resale license, purchases an asset like a boat or car for its own use. Sales tax is owed if a new boat/car, use tax if it is used OR brought in from another state.
However:

  • You own an LLC, which owns a boat. You list the LLC for sale, and someone else buys the shares from you. No exchange of tangible personal property as taken place as the LLC is not such. Thus (theoretically), no use tax is owed by the buyer of your LLC, and he now additionally has your boat.
Thus, as far as sales/use tax goes, the benefit of owning a boat in an LLC is not enjoyed by you, the original purchaser. It is a benefit to the person you are selling the LLC (and boat it owns) to. And thus perhaps you command a higher price than Seller B, because Buyer knows he will have to pay use tax on Seller B's boat.

I believe all the above to be true, at least for Cali. I have "heard" of language in other states along the lines of "if the sole purpose of the LLC is to avoid sales/use tax....."

BUT!

It does appear to be true in Cali that if you keep that boat out of the Cali for one year you do not have to pay sales/use tax. I personally know of people that have done this, and googling around it still seems viable. As Cali is very voracious about tax revenues, I can only assume that back in the day there were powerful lawmakers, or friends of lawmakers, that put this loophole in place for their own benefit, and it hasn't been remedied.

It really makes no sense at all. I guarantee you that if say you move from Oregon to Cali, along with your five year old car, you are going to pay use tax on that car! Or say you came from a state with 5% sales tax, you are going to pay the difference (if any is left considering depreciation).

As has been covered extensively in several threads, we certainly don't have that loophole in WA state where I now live. If you are a WA resident, with a boat in WA, you are going to pay sales/use tax period.

So enjoy that "one year" loophole. But forget this idea that as far as acquiring a boat, being some type of corp or corp like entity means sales/use tax isn't owed (assuming one is not using the one year loophole). I'm amazed that it exists. And also know that the SBOE has an armada of lawyers on staff. It's no skin off their nose to attempt to obtain sales/use tax revenues from taxpayers no matter how sketchy their argument. You simply would not believe what I saw during my education process. In my experience, the SBOE will never provide you with written clearance that if you do x,y,z you will not owe tax.

BTW, here is their web page with advice on this subject:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub52.pdf

Postscript. I have found over the years that most CPA's do not have comprehensive knowledge about sales tax/SBOE. If I was looking for the best advice I could pay for, I would look to a Tax Attorney practice with a specialization in sales tax/SBOE. I.e. an attorney that defends people being sued by the SBOE.

Well put! Thanks for link.
 
This thread has taken a turn in a direction that I definitely did not want to go. It's my fault. I appreciate the legal advice but I'll take my chances with my attorney that specializes in this area.

Anyone want to go to Mexico?

Cheers!
 
DD
Does your attorney have prior clients who have sheltered a new yacht build in an LLC? If so, a conversation with them would be possibly helpful.

BTW, make a bet with your attorney, say $5K plus his fee on success or failure.
 
Hi folks! I thought I'd bring you up to date on my progress towards getting my NP45 down to Mexico.

So many people were "suggesting" that I cruise the PNW before running South. I didn't pay much attention to them. It was surprising how many people were almost incensed that I was even considering running directly to Mexico after having just bought the boat and never having cruised the PNW. But they kept insisting that I had to experience the beautiful Pacific North West! Many said that once I did I would never leave. I didn't believe that for a second. But so many people were almost hounding me to just try it!

So, I decided to run out to an island or two then leave. I left Bellingham and went approximately west about 22 miles to an Island by the name of Sucia and stayed in Fossil Bay. OK it was pretty. I stayed there about 4 days and hiked all over that island. Threw the dingy in and cruised around. Then I went back to Bellingham and restocked the boat. Next I went South to La Conner then to Shileshole then to Bremerton for Trawler Fest. I met a few Trawler Forum folks while there, which was a pleasant surprise, nice people! On my way back I hit Kingston for a few days then back to Bellingham to restock. I then went back to Sucia Island then over to Blaine and up to Richmond in Canada and up the Fraser River to Deckside Marina. From there I went back down the Fraser and turned North to English Bay and in to False Creek in Vancouver. I stayed in False Creek for over a week and did the tourist thing. I cruised by Vancouver Harbor and up Indian Arm to Bedwell Cove. Stayed a few days and hiked around then went back down Indian Arm to Port Graves in Gambier Island (Howe Sound). Caught some crab and had a great dinner. Then up the Sunshine Coast to Pender Cove, then to Squirrel Cove in Cortez Island (Desolation Sound), then back down the Sunshine Coast (Straights of Georgia) and across to the gulf Islands. Clam Bay in Thetis Island, then to Montague Bay in Galiano Island where they have a great pub called Humingbird Pub. I must have stayed there for at least a week. Then to Ganges on Saltspring Island, then to Stuart Island and back to Blaine for maintenance and some added equipment like a water maker and extra freezer.

Are you starting to see a trend? 1300 nautical miles later the cruising season ended. The boat is back up the Fraser River in Richmond, Canada for the winter. It's been recommissioned with the equipment that will allow me to go further and stay out longer for next years cruising season.

I'm just trying it out to see what everyone is talking about. I'm still going to Mexico! I'm just postponing the trip until next year, or the year after that.

Cheers!
 
Hi folks! I thought I'd bring you up to date on my progress towards getting my NP45 down to Mexico.



So many people were "suggesting" that I cruise the PNW before running South. I didn't pay much attention to them. It was surprising how many people were almost incensed that I was even considering running directly to Mexico after having just bought the boat and never having cruised the PNW. But they kept insisting that I had to experience the beautiful Pacific North West! Many said that once I did I would never leave. I didn't believe that for a second. But so many people were almost hounding me to just try it!



So, I decided to run out to an island or two then leave. I left Bellingham and went approximately west about 22 miles to an Island by the name of Sucia and stayed in Fossil Bay. OK it was pretty. I stayed there about 4 days and hiked all over that island. Threw the dingy in and cruised around. Then I went back to Bellingham and restocked the boat. Next I went South to La Conner then to Shileshole then to Bremerton for Trawler Fest. I met a few Trawler Forum folks while there, which was a pleasant surprise, nice people! On my way back I hit Kingston for a few days then back to Bellingham to restock. I then went back to Sucia Island then over to Blaine and up to Richmond in Canada and up the Fraser River to Deckside Marina. From there I went back down the Fraser and turned North to English Bay and in to False Creek in Vancouver. I stayed in False Creek for over a week and did the tourist thing. I cruised by Vancouver Harbor and up Indian Arm to Bedwell Cove. Stayed a few days and hiked around then went back down Indian Arm to Port Graves in Gambier Island (Howe Sound). Caught some crab and had a great dinner. Then up the Sunshine Coast to Pender Cove, then to Squirrel Cove in Cortez Island (Desolation Sound), then back down the Sunshine Coast (Straights of Georgia) and across to the gulf Islands. Clam Bay in Thetis Island, then to Montague Bay in Galiano Island where they have a great pub called Humingbird Pub. I must have stayed there for at least a week. Then to Ganges on Saltspring Island, then to Stuart Island and back to Blaine for maintenance and some added equipment like a water maker and extra freezer.



Are you starting to see a trend? 1300 nautical miles later the cruising season ended. The boat is back up the Fraser River in Richmond, Canada for the winter. It's been recommissioned with the equipment that will allow me to go further and stay out longer for next years cruising season.



I'm just trying it out to see what everyone is talking about. I'm still going to Mexico! I'm just postponing the trip until next year, or the year after that.



Cheers!



Your just getting started. When you get further north you'll realize you still have further north to go. Take two months and go as fare as Bella Bella next summer. Pruth Bay, McNaughton Group, ocean Falls, Roscoe, Spiller.... It could go on forever.
 
I told you I'm going to Mexico I don't know why you don't believe me. :whistling:

That said - I was thinking of the Broughtons but I'll definitely add those places to the list!

Thanks
 
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I told you I'm going to Mexico I don't know why you don't believe me. :whistling:

That said - I was thinking of the Broughtons but I'll definitely add those places to the list!

Thanks

Wifey B: North to Alaska. :D

 
Your just getting started. When you get further north you'll realize you still have further north to go. Take two months and go as fare as Bella Bella next summer. Pruth Bay, McNaughton Group, ocean Falls, Roscoe, Spiller.... It could go on forever.

Then take a couple months more to go a wee bit north of there and visit Gardner Canal, Campania Island, the Estavan Group, Haida Gwaii, etc...

No palm trees, but then again, no crowds :D
 
I told you I'm going to Mexico I don't know why you don't believe me. :whistling:

That said - I was thinking of the Broughtons but I'll definitely add those places to the list!

Thanks

Most excellent! The 3 years we spent cruising up north is without a doubt a lifetime experience, several ticks off the bucket list. Hope you enjoy it and become more familiar with the new boat.

We just got home here in Vegas after driving down the coast from Portland. We made it as far as Ft. Bragg before heading inland to get home. We stopped at almost every conceivable port down the coast to get a perspective of bar crossings, Marina’s and facilities in those ports. Some good, some not so good!

I will try and compile the info we gathered as well as a few pics and post separately, it was a bit of an eye opener for us.

Cheers
 
I will try and compile the info we gathered as well as a few pics and post separately, it was a bit of an eye opener for us.

Cheers

Well then I think you should forget Mexico and help DD on his quest to explore more of the PNW. We could even put Glacier Bay and Sitka on the port of call.:thumb::eek:
 
After spending time on the boat and hearing all the horror stories about the West Coast. I'm hesitant to try running down the coast now. I'm actually considering a second boat for the SF Bay and Delta. I'd love an older Defever 50.

I'm keeping an eye out for deals.

Thanks All for the suggestions. That's how and why I've gone to the places that I really enjoyed. The great thing about Trawler Folks (especially the PNW Folks) is they are always willing to take the time to fill you in on the good places and places to use caution. The narrows are always a place to use caution!

Cheers!
 
After spending time on the boat and hearing all the horror stories about the West Coast. I'm hesitant to try running down the coast now. I'm actually considering a second boat for the SF Bay and Delta. I'd love an older Defever 50.

I'm keeping an eye out for deals.

Thanks All for the suggestions. That's how and why I've gone to the places that I really enjoyed. The great thing about Trawler Folks (especially the PNW Folks) is they are always willing to take the time to fill you in on the good places and places to use caution. The narrows are always a place to use caution!

Cheers!

Wifey B: I think many of the horror stories are old wives tails or old sailors tales. The coast is fine to run down and very enjoyable. Just a lot to enjoy up north before you head down. Yes, you have to be aware of conditions but that's a basic. :)
 
DirtDoc,

One boat is plenty! The cost of one boat is enuff allready, a second one would drive me crazy. And dont be scared of the West Coast, just respect it. Lots of people do it all the time, just dont get tied to a schedule. We plan to cruise slowly on our trip south, taking advantage of the nice weather to travel and not so nice weather to stay docked up and play like tourist. After this trip that we just made in the vehicle to check out ports along the way, we found that they all have there plus’s and minus’s, some more than others.
With regards to the PNW, if you dont think you will be back up to enjoy it for several years, try and enjoy it now. That was our plan and now we want to explore warmer weather and different area’s.
Cheers
 
DirtDoc,

One boat is plenty! The cost of one boat is enuff allready, a second one would drive me crazy. And dont be scared of the West Coast, just respect it. Lots of people do it all the time, just dont get tied to a schedule. We plan to cruise slowly on our trip south, taking advantage of the nice weather to travel and not so nice weather to stay docked up and play like tourist. After this trip that we just made in the vehicle to check out ports along the way, we found that they all have there plus’s and minus’s, some more than others.
With regards to the PNW, if you dont think you will be back up to enjoy it for several years, try and enjoy it now. That was our plan and now we want to explore warmer weather and different area’s.
Cheers

Hi Crusty,

I would be less hesitant to run the coast if I had your Selene with it's full displacement hull, ballast and displacement but I'm running a semi-displacement hull with no ballast. Big difference in capabilities. You may also have active stabilizers. Mine are passive bilge keels. There is nothing wrong with my boat it's just not built for blue water. I would really have to watch the weather and if I got stuck in anything more than 10-12 footers, (depending on spacing and wind) it could be truly dangerous. That said, I will most likely give it a shot anyways. You've got to know your boats capabilities.

Thanks for your feedback. It is helpful to talk with people that have been there and done it.

Cheers,
 
Traveling the West Coast is about weather windows. The NP45 is way more than adequate. Just don’t go if there are small craft advisory’s in the forecast.

I don’t go if the forecast has wind over 15 kts.
 
Traveling the West Coast is about weather windows. The NP45 is way more than adequate. Just don’t go if there are small craft advisory’s in the forecast.

I don’t go if the forecast has wind over 15 kts.

I agree. We brought ASD from S.F. to the Columbia River bar. Its all about weather.
 
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