Tariff affect on PNW boat building.

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That could pale into insignificance. Trump is threatening to leave the World Trade Organization. Trump is not keen on facilitating trade so it makes sense he would want to pull USA out of the WTO.

Does America get a say or can he so decide,and act accordingly?
 
I'm negotiating the purchase of an aluminum hulled boat now. Any day the negotiations could go south based on pricing changes so I appreciate you posting this article.
 
It's a complex and unsettling situation in which ultimately the public is taxed and one or more governments get the money.

It's a full time job just to keep up with the tariff changes and what they impact. Our law firm provides bulletins and then we have one employee who goes through them all to see how we might be impacted, but then the situation changes. And even the threats have impact.
 
Australia produces aluminum, so far it`s exempt from Trumped Up Tariffs. But there`s freight to consider.
If one threat is carried through, others create more uncertainty. Will he, won`t he? It destabilizes markets. And that`s either a product of intention, or game playing. It`s wrong,and right will out.
 
I am also often guilty of oversimplification but this is really offensive. It is about opportunity.

The US has fewer than half as many paychecks as people. Over half of those paychecks pay under $14/hr or so. So only about a quarter or a fifth of the people can afford basic necessities without subsidy. Of that quarter, many are government jobs which are not open to large segments of the population.

Globalists use the word "competition" as code for slave labor.

Metal produced with slave labor and no environmental protection is "dumped" at under production costs on the US market through intermediaries in our bordering countries like Mexico and Canada.


"Free Trade" is also code. There is nothing free about it.


Anti-exploitation measures
 
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"Does America get a say or can he so decide,and act accordingly?"
America had a say during the presidential election. Trump ran on these ideas and was not bashful about it. No matter what one may think about such things, Americans had their say in 2016.
 
Trump understands leverage and incentives. Tariffs will bring negotiations. Negotiations will bring opportunity.


There really is more to this country than government. Many government people seem to have forgotten this or just don't care, or worse.
 
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I understand your point, even though I don’t necessarily agree with all your conclusions.

Boat said:
The US has fewer than half as many paychecks as people.
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Likely true. My family (of two currently) only has 1 paycheck so we are only 50%. When my kids were home we still had 50%. My Mom doesn’t get a paycheck so in her family of 1 she is 0%. I know a number of families of 5 who only have 1 paycheck so they are at 20%. So, while it is true it doesn’t necessarily mean much.

Over half of those paychecks pay under $14/hr or so. So only about a quarter or a fifth of the people can afford basic necessities without subsidy.
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Also likely true. However, I live next to a large metro region that has made $15/hr the minimum wage and in a state that has increased its minimum wage to $11/hr in 2017, $11.50/hr this year, $12/hr in 2019, and $13.50/hr in 2020. After that the minimum wage is indexed to inflation. We fired one employee in 2017 because he wasn’t worth $11/hr. In the two counties that I employ folks the unemployment rate is 4.4% and 4.8%. I have a really hard time finding anyone worth paying $11.50/hr. I only employ a dozen people. My point is that in my sample of one, increasing the minimum wage too much is costing jobs.

As for subsidy, I don’t know. A lot of folk’s get subsidies. I get a very large government subsidy through the mortgage interest deduction. I know it is silly but I still happily take that subsidy on my federal taxes each year.

This year I am getting a $15k subsidy due to the GOPs tax plan as a pass-through entity. Yeah, it is silly but I will happily take that subsidy on my taxes as well.

Every time I fill up my boat or car I am taking advantage of subsidized fuel prices as the taxes paid on the fuel don’t come close to the cost of providing the road infrastructure necessary to support the burning of that fuel.

Of course we don’t even need to mention the subsidies on certain agricultural products such as milk and corn.

So when you mention subsidies, which subsidies are you talking about? SSI and Medicare? Medicaid? Welfare? Parental leave? Or is the minimum wage itself an income redistribution subsidy?


Of that quarter, many are government jobs which are not open to large segments of the population.
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Not sure I understand this. I agree that public sector employment makes up a huge share of the labor force. While it is true that many military jobs have pretty strict age, sex, and physical requirements, there are only about 1.4 million total in the US military and a portion of those jobs are limited by sex. Total there are about 23 million public sector jobs in the US with only a tiny fraction of those limited based on age, sex, or physical ability. Seem to me that the government jobs are open to to most folks in the US.

Globalists use the word "competition" as code for slave labor.
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Not sure which definition of “globalist” you are using. If you mean “A national geopolitical policy in which the entire world is regarded as the appropriate sphere for a state's influence” then I think that when they say “competition” they actually mean competition. If, OTOH, you are using one of the many Trumpian and conspiracy theorist definitions of globalism, then it is all fiction anyway.

Metal produced with slave labor and no environmental protection is "dumped" at under production costs on the US market through intermediaries in our bordering countries like Mexico and Canada.
Click to expand...

I’ve mentioned before that the vaulted Canadian decency and politeness is really just a sinister plot and part of their ongoing attempt to destroy the US. That is why the president considers Canada a threat to US national security. Likely a joint plot on the part of Canada and Mexico. Canada is destroying our ability to make war by selling us steel and aluminum and Mexico is doing it by sending us murderer and rapists.

Seriously, I think that trade agreements should take into consideration basic human rights to avoid true slave labor.

"Free Trade" is also code. There is nothing free about it.
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I guess I can’t decode the code. I think of free trade as being international trade that is market run without the interference of tariffs, quotas, or other artificial restrictions. I guess I think of it more along the lines of Burke than Smith.

Anyway, none of this relates to my original question of the effects of the new tariffs on the PNW boater building industry.
 
Greetings,
Mr. dh. "I’ve mentioned before that the vaulted Canadian decency and politeness is really just a sinister plot and part of their ongoing attempt to destroy the US. That is why the president considers Canada a threat to US national security. Likely a joint plot on the part of Canada and Mexico. Canada is destroying our ability to make war by selling us steel and aluminum and Mexico is doing it by sending us murderer and rapists."


I hope this comment is tongue in cheek. Surely you can't be serious....
 
RT Firefly said:
Greetings,
Mr. dh. "I’ve mentioned before that the vaulted Canadian decency and politeness is really just a sinister plot and part of their ongoing attempt to destroy the US. That is why the president considers Canada a threat to US national security. Likely a joint plot on the part of Canada and Mexico. Canada is destroying our ability to make war by selling us steel and aluminum and Mexico is doing it by sending us murderer and rapists."


I hope this comment is tongue in cheek. Surely you can't be serious....
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RT, I’m hurt that you have to ask. Yes, most definitely not serious.

At least I’m not serious. I’m afraid our president is.
 
Here's a "free market" exercise: Start a company that legally makes Morphine and sells it through legitimate channels. Never get off the ground. Not because of the free market, but because of the "free market".


No quotas? Did you chuckle when you typed that? On what planet?


Unemployment? Why is it that when "they" say "unemployment" they aren't counting the people who don't have jobs? How many times have they changed the way they count? Why does the change always decrease the count? There six metrics or more. They always publicize the least meaningful one.


Funny that you quote the official media newsline and mention conspiracy theory also. TV news is almost nothing but conspiracy theory, 24/7.


News today is all conspiracy, all the time.


Men use thought only to justify their wrong doings, and employ speech only to conceal their thoughts.


Seriously. Metal made with slave labor in asia with no environmental controls, imported through Mexico and Canada to the US to get around the ban. Bingo, Tariffs until negotiations. I'm behind it.
 
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I've owned several businesses. I always found paying high wages for high quality employees gives you a much better choice in employees. You draw good people from competitors and bring desired people into the area. I sold my last business about 25 years ago. I paid wages between $18 and $25. The $25 people could do twice as much as the $18 who could do much more than minimum wage people. When someone does twice the work with a piece of equipment, it's like having two operating pieces, but the second piece costs $7 in labor. When you do the math, it's like having a gold mine.
Additionally, good pay and your people value their job. You don't have turnover or new employee training, but your competitors do. I've seen too many businesses that are basically training employees for someone else. Because as soon as they have some experience they quit and go get a better paying job.
 
Boat said:
Here's a "free market" exercise: Start a company that legally makes Morphine and sells it through legitimate channels. Never get off the ground.
Click to expand...

Purdue Pharma certainly got off the ground.
 
Boat said:
....Funny that you quote the official media newsline and mention conspiracy theory also. TV news is almost nothing but conspiracy theory, 24/7....News today is all conspiracy, all the time....
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A conspiracy theorist. Let`s wonder about the origins,ah yes, I know.
 
Jeff F said:
Purdue Pharma certainly got off the ground.
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Since 1892. Try it today. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, just saying I wouldn't be allowed to do it and almost nobody else would either.

Which brings us to what I call "success via legislation".

Law isn't supposed to be based on who you are. If you start with a person and search for a law to enforce against that person it is not a prosecution, it is persecution.

Too many laws and/or policies are based on who is involved. Often no action is taken until the question of who will benefit can be resolved. In our representative form of government, those who are supposedly represented are too often forgotten, ignored or oppressed.

Keep it up long enough and see what you get. Oh, I think you did.
 
BruceK said:
A conspiracy theorist. Let`s wonder about the origins,ah yes, I know.
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They did away with the Fairness Doctrine and 72 or so other controls on propaganda, etc. Now the "news", and the like, is just entertainment and extortion.

Read up on how the owners of the Denver paper extorted a large sum from the sitting president over the Teapot Dome ordeal. 1920s, might be a little hard to find. The paper was bought to extort from the local businesses. Advertise or be smeared.

These days it cost a billion or so to be president, or be smeared.
 
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Greetings,
Mr. Boat. I pretty well agree with your last 3 posts. The only exception is your comment regarding offshore steel being imported into the US through Canada and Mexico (post # 13). I could not find where Canada was asking for exemptions on foreign metals. ONLY on Canadian made metals. I see no problem with that request.
 
RT Firefly said:
Greetings,
Mr. Boat. I pretty well agree with your last 3 posts. The only exception is your comment regarding offshore steel being imported into the US through Canada and Mexico (post # 13). I could not find where Canada was asking for exemptions on foreign metals. ONLY on Canadian made metals. I see no problem with that request.
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This makes it more complex but the principles remain. You have to consider the metal products as a pool. The profits from the Asian metal could subsidize the Canadian metal industry and undercut the US metal industry at the same time. It could easily become an unsustainable market. I think it did already.

Not sure separation could be enforced either.

The politics of recycling are part of this. The US approach has been to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Have you read about nuclear-free steel? This borders on the bizarre:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
 
If tariffs are imposed on imports,and imports continue, prices would rise. Local mfrs may be able to compete,with prices increased. There may be more jobs with local mfrs,as the goal of tariffs.
But, the whole population pays more for the same goods, whether they be tariff added imports,or locally made.Increasing cost of living. Is that good, or is it acceptable collateral damage?
I keep reading to look at what Trump does, not what he says. Is what the President says not reliable? Surely not.
 
BruceK said:
If tariffs are imposed on imports,and imports continue, prices would rise. Local mfrs may be able to compete,with prices increased. There may be more jobs with local mfrs,as the goal of tariffs.
But, the whole population pays more for the same goods, whether they be tariff added imports,or locally made.Increasing cost of living. Is that good, or is it acceptable collateral damage?
I keep reading to look at what Trump does, not what he says. Is what the President says not reliable? Surely not.
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You pose an interesting question. One must consider what price the consumer pays in increased federal, state, and local taxes to provide welfare for those who lost their jobs when the consumer started buying most things from other countries. It's not as simple as the lowest price is always best for the consumer and most likely not for the country.

Ted
 
Well, two basic short term economic impacts in general of tariffs and tariff wars.

1-They're simply a tax that goes to the governments.
2-They increase prices, which decreases demand, which decreases sales.

Helping local manufacturing assumes the capacity is there and short term it rarely is.
 
BandB said:
Well, two basic short term economic impacts in general of tariffs and tariff wars.

1-They're simply a tax that goes to the governments.
2-They increase prices, which decreases demand, which decreases sales.

Helping local manufacturing assumes the capacity is there and short term it rarely is.
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Yes, except was "Making America Great Again" was just about raising tax via tariff walls/wars? I thought it was about jobs,"America First". Demand creating jobs, creating production capacity,attracted by higher priced imports raising price potential to a profitable level from an unprofitable level. Assuming demand was not greatly dampened by increased pricing.
But,if higher prices destroy demand, there are no local jobs to produce a homegrown product, less or no sale of imports, and little or no tariff raised. So, a downturn in demand in USA, a downturn in production in China. And not much else.
Perhaps one country feels "greater" if another is degraded. Schadenfreude?*
*(Note: Sensibly,no English word exists,so we use the German word, which broadly means, taking delight in the misfortunes of others. So odious it explains the absence of an English word.)
 
BruceK said:
Perhaps one country feels "greater" if another is degraded. Schadenfreude?*
*(Note: Sensibly,no English word exists,so we use the German word, which broadly means, taking delight in the misfortunes of others. So odious it explains the absence of an English word.)

Not so fast Bruce-Schadenfreude it is called. Or epicaricacy, as the English will have it. From the original Greek.

Retromancer, by Robert Rankin, 2009.

Mind you, it is pretty obscure, I can only find two instances where it has ever been used in popular writing.
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If you believe that America can produce goods (maybe at a slightly higher price) and employ more of its citizens, you first need to show manufacturers that there is an increasing market for their products. It's also important for manufacturers to know that the government will protect them from another contry dumping their goods below cost in our market to put USA manufacturers out of business.

The second point that you fail to mention is that the tariff war started over trade imbalances. When we produce products that favorably compete in other countries and America is prohibited from selling them or there are unreasonable tariffs imposed, those situations need to be corrected.

While I liked North American free trade, when Canada imposes tariffs to protect their dairy industry, it's no longer free trade.

Ted
 
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O C Diver said:
While I liked North American free trade, when Canada imposes tariffs to protect their dairy industry, it's no longer free trade.
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Last I checked, Canada imports more US dairy products than it exports. In other words, the US has a trade surplus with Canada in dairy. Sure, Canada imposes a huge tariff on US dairy as part of their own dairy price support program and that is a problem. However, the US subsidizes our own dairy industry as well. If you factor in all the price supports, subsidies, and irrigation assistance to US dairy farmers, they amount to over 70% of what dairy farmers get for their product.



Dairy is screwed up. In the US we keep producing more dairy even though dairy consumption is decreasing. Beside subsidies, the US government has been buying the surplus as a price support and turning it into cheese, which it then has to store (guess who pays for that?). This cheese stockpile has increased 16% since the Obama administration ended.
 
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dhays said:
Dairy is a really stupid thing for our President to use as yet another excuse for an even more asinine trade war.
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Agreed. I'd also like to note that the Canadian tarriffs and policies on dairy predate NAFTA. To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been any significant increase in import restrictions in 30+ years. It seems to be a talking point with the current administration, but it's hardly a new issue or even a material component of the bilateral trade between the two countries.
 
Jeff F said:
Agreed. I'd also like to note that the Canadian tarriffs and policies on dairy predate NAFTA. To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been any significant increase in import restrictions in 30+ years. It seems to be a talking point with the current administration, but it's hardly a new issue or even a material component of the bilateral trade between the two countries.
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Of course the one sentence that I thought better of, and went back and deleted, is the one sentence that got quoted. :facepalm: Not that I disagree with what I wrote, but it was unnecessarily inflammatory.


But yeah, the dairy issue is a non-issue within the larger context.
 
Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of FREE trade. Thought it meant NO tariffed goods. Nobody is supposed to be able to pick and choose what tariffs remain. Regarding farm subsidies, I think there is certainly room for improvement. Would really like to see the government crack down on farming as a tax write off while their income is made in other ways. If you're going to have free trade, have free trade. If you're going to allow tariffs on some things, then it needs to be a 2 way street.

Ted
 
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