Duck Boats

I thought the "would you ride" question was about duck boats in general.

I understand conditions changed rapidly on the lake, but the weather service had been tracking this storm for a long time. They had precise information on its location, direction, and speed. A 7th grade algebra student could tell when the storm was going to arive. I read that the operators paid for a subscription to a weather service so the company had the information. What they did with that information, and who makes the go/no-go decisions will be a focal point I'm sure. I can't believe it will take a year to reach a conclusion!

Benthic2 said:

I thought the "would you ride" question was about duck boats in general.

I understand conditions changed rapidly on the lake, but the weather service had been tracking this storm for a long time. They had precise information on its location, direction, and speed. A 7th grade algebra student could tell when the storm was going to arive. I read that the operators paid for a subscription to a weather service so the company had the information. What they did with that information, and who makes the go/no-go decisions will be a focal point I'm sure. I can't believe it will take a year to reach a conclusion!

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It doesnt take a year for the board to reach its conclusion, it takes that long to be processed through the grinder and spit out to the public.

Plus the obvious reasons somethimes are known right away, but the digging up of info and double checking everything by a limited number of people takes time too.

This Trawler Forum member actually designed one of these boats:

I find the emotions of transportation "safety" quite interesting. It's been decades since I found myself in a school bus. Yesterday, I again rode a bus. It had the most amazing set of safety features that did not exist decades ago. Like, a box containing stuff for "human fluid" cleanup. Two video cameras with recording storage. Seat belts, padded seat backs, roof egress, wheelchair access and tie downs, 2 way radio, egress windows; and, that is just the obvious stuff. Some states have you plant a xenon strobe on the roof. Anyway, I'm not sure I have a comment on this, other than that if this mentality is taken to ducks, not sure they will still will be economically feasible.

Revert the design to its original and delete the hazardous retrofit

Roger Long said:

This Trawler Forum member actually designed one of these boats:

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This picture says it all. Anyone that designs such a seaworthy craft as this, and can sleep at night knowing families are confidently boarding in trust of the designer, captain.. Its not if, but when and how many times there will be death. We on this forum should all know, those people that say they are fair weather boaters, don’t really know...

No boat that is designed with “fair weather” in mind should leave shore more than 100 feet....

I was on a Duck Boat twice. Once in SF harbor and once in Boston. Both days were calm seas with little wind. Would not want to be on one in any type of rough weather/seas.

The boat that sunk [I believe it was the one sitting low in the water] had for some reason in some way taken on too much water with apparently no way to bail the contents. Soooo many incorrect circumstances, decisions and moves seem to have been taken.

I am very sad for the passengers and give my heart felt condolences for all who passed.

Here's a link explaining the difference between the boat pictured above and the Branson duck boats:

https://maineducktours.com/safety/

Those don't look anything like an original Duck boat/trckThose don't look anything like an original Duck boat. They look like cheesy want-to-be cheesy copies.ck. They look like cheesy want-to-be cheesy copies.

cruise said:

This picture says it all. Anyone that designs such a seaworthy craft as this, and can sleep at night knowing families are confidently boarding in trust of the designer, captain.. Its not if, but when and how many times there will be death. We on this forum should all know, those people that say they are fair weather boaters, don’t really know...

No boat that is designed with “fair weather” in mind should leave shore more than 100 feet....

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For such strong opinions on seaworthyness, where exactly did you get all your naval architecture and sea miles experience?

psneeld said:

For such strong opinions on seaworthyness, where exactly did you get all your naval architecture and sea miles experience?

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I am currently 43 , have been on the water since I was in diapers. Have sailed on a 44 foot CSY center cockpit from BVI to Ct. Have owned a boat at a slip since it was 18.

Have sailed and powered all over the north east and keys.

Have rebuilt three full stringer and transom issues on boats that in my opinion turn out better than factory due to attention to detail.

This doesn’t make me an expert, but have been in waters in which vessels were hailing a Mayday. You may ask what was I doing out in weather like this? We were A. Outlet hundred miles out on our way up to Ct. in my opinion the 30 foot seas were not as bad as it gets and honestly was not worried because we had a vessel with all required bilge pumps, emergency gear, type 1 vests, epirb, and an deployable life raft. Being prepaired, I feel is common sense... part of being prepaired is not bringing a vessel incapable of imporoperly handling the waters , maintenance not up to par.

I do suppose my thoughts on this situation stem from emotions, as I agree with Art and feel for the people and families involved in this accident.

I just never thought those duck boats were a good idea.. and was surprised this boat was out in that type of seas... they just shouldn’t, leave small rivers- channels.

This is an interesting read. Again I feel for those people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rds-say/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f4526f23762c

cruise said:

This is an interesting read. Again I feel for those people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rds-say/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f4526f23762c

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Yes, interesting. So many unfortunate circumstances. Prayers for the victims and their families.

Clearly there were a series of mistakes/bad judgement/mechanical and environmental issues that led up to this tragedy.
To make a blanket statement that these need to be banned is a rash and emotional judgement.

Almost every piece of transportation equipment operated outside of the scope of its design can and may fail, that goes for trains, planes, cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, lawnmowers, tractors etc.

I have been on both DUKW's and once on a ride the ducks boat. The RTD boat was a purpose built for that industry machine that was vastly different than a original DUKW and IMHO would of fared considerably better in rough conditions as they are not a "tub" design like the DUKW.
The original DUKW took a few minutes to convert from land to sea travel and had a bunch of valves and misc. stuff that had to be checked or changed prior to launch.
None of that matters a bit, the main focus needs to be on the families of this tragedy, and the survivors. The industry surely needs to look at why/how this happened and put the checks into place so it doesn't happen again.
I an pasting a blurb I found on the timeline and procedures that happened prior to the sinking.. they did a safety brief and did appear to follow some protocol. From the video of the two boats running side by side it appears that the near shore boat survived because it had just a bit more protection and didnt take as many big waves over the deck.

HOLLYWOOD

The NTSB’s initial review findings from the video are below:

• The audio quality varies widely throughout the recording, affecting the intelligibility of what is spoken.
• About 18:27:08. The captain and driver boarded the previously empty vehicle. The driver sat in the driver’s seat and the captain sat in the side-facing seat to the right of the driver. (The captain operates the duck on water and the driver operates duck on the road.)
• About 18:28:00. The crew was told to take the water portion of the tour first, by an individual who briefly stepped onto the rear of the vehicle.
• About 18:29:13. As the passengers were loading, the captain made a verbal reference to looking at the weather radar prior to the trip.
• About 18:33:10. The driver stated a passenger count of 29 and shortly after, the vehicle departed the terminal facility. The captain narrated the tour while the vehicle was in motion.
• Starting about 18:50. In the vicinity of the boat ramp, the captain began a safety briefing regarding the water portion of the tour. The briefing included the location of emergency exits as well as the location of the life jackets. The captain then demonstrated the use of a life jacket and pointed out the location of the life rings. The captain moved into the driver’s seat and the driver moved into the seat directly behind.
• About 18:55:20. The captain announced to the passengers that they would be entering the water. The boat entered the water. The water appeared calm at this time.
• Between about 18:56:22 and 19:00:38. The captain allowed four different children to sit in the driver’s seat, while he observed and assisted.
• About 19:00:25. Whitecaps rapidly appeared on the water and winds increased.
• About 19:00:42. The captain returned to the driver’s seat. The driver lowered both the port and starboard clear plastic side curtains.
• About 19:01:01. The captain made a comment about the storm.
• About 19:03:15. The captain made a handheld radio call, the content of which is currently unintelligible.
• About 19:04:15. An electronic tone associated with the bilge alarm activated.
• About 19:05:21. The captain reached downward with his right hand and the bilge alarm ceases.
• About 19:05:40. The captain made a handheld radio call, the content of which is currently unintelligible.
• In the final minutes of the recording. Water occasionally splashes inside the vehicle’s passenger compartment. (The low frame rate and relatively low resolution make it very difficult to be more precise in the preliminary review.)
• About 19:07:26. An electronic tone associated with the bilge alarm activated.
• 19:08:27. The inward-facing recording ended, while the vehicle was still on the surface of the water.

Interesting report. The boat enters the water at 18:55 & at 19:00 white caps appeared. Here in Florida we have thunderstorm warnings just about every day & one thing I know is that they are clearly visible before they hit. We've also learned that although these storms may be short in duration they can be quite violent & should never be underestimated. It's hard to believe that a storm of this magnitude, only 5 minutes away, was not clearly visible before they entered the water. I think it is more likely that thunderstorm warnings are common in the summer in Branson & that the tours routinely keep their schedules & head out when thunderstorms are predicted.


I also noted that there was no mention of the captain telling passengers that they would not need their PFDs as has been reported. The safety briefing by the captain appears to have been normal & adequate. It's also interesting that there were 2 bilge alarms that sounded. It may well end up that the sinking was caused by faulty bilge pumps.

I didn't realize until today that RTD Branson also builds their vehicles. I had assumed then when liability was discussed they would point the finger at the builder.

The legal side of things has started. They've been sued for $100 millioin

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/30/us/duck-boat-lawsuit/index.html


As a counterpoint, here's an article describing the Limitation of Liability Act which limits damages to ship owners to the salvage value of the vessel:

https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article215516850.html

It would be interesting to sit on a civil jury, if things get that far.

On the one hand; a passenger has a reasonable expectation to survive the trip, even a non-swimmer.

On the other hand; it might be a reasonable expectation for passengers to put on a life jacket, virtually unassisted (like an airline).

I think the former will have more weight.

Benthic2 said:

I didn't realize until today that RTD Branson also builds their vehicles. I had assumed then when liability was discussed they would point the finger at the builder.

The legal side of things has started. They've been sued for $100 millioin

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/30/us/duck-boat-lawsuit/index.html


As a counterpoint, here's an article describing the Limitation of Liability Act which limits damages to ship owners to the salvage value of the vessel:

https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article215516850.html

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Same law TOTE hid behind.

I suspect ticketing and signs posted attempted to limit liability as well.

Likely course is suits for millions, defendants claim not liable for various and sundry reasons. Ultimately, insurer involved and the amount of insurance becomes the key, assuming insurer will accept liability. Then it's "Settle now for our offer or drag this out by suing us and you may end up getting nothing or far less." Offers likely to be around $200,000-$230,000 per death and $50,000 for survivors. That's based on an assumption of $5 million liability. Those quick to sue will likely get the same, less 1/3 or so going to their attorneys.

It says in various articles that the driver was 73. I expect that the captain was around the same age (but I do not know).

As people age, their decision making processes can be slowed, especially in novel situations. While the decision to depart was probably made by someone else, contending with the storm, returning the boat to shore, and how to deal with the worsening situation on board would have required decisions made by the operators on board.

Further, in the case of the Branson accident, older operators may have had enough difficulty extracting themselves (or not) that they may not have the opportunity to help any of the other passengers.

Perhaps there should be an age limit for operators of commercial vehicles primarily intended to carry passengers (sort of like airline pilots). While I'm not saying that operating a duck boat is as complicated as flying a plane, but poor decisions on the part of the operator(s) can have similar results.

Yeah but often wisdom comes with age and not panicking trump's physical ability every time in emergencies.

Be careful with those assumptions.....you might be right to require performance reviews, but not solely on age.

I suppose the company could throw the captain under the bus. "We're just business people, he's the professional mariner...he should have known better"

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

what seems weird is the exit is at the stern....and the captain survived. Based on distance to the exit he is the most likely to die.

Maybe there were enough escape routes that exiting the rear wasnt necessary.

The advantage of remaining calm and thinking.....

Aparently the Coast Guard Inspection said the vehicle should not be operated in winds over 35 mph or seas greater than 2 feet. I suspect that will become a significant factor, because RTD could say they didn't expect 6 foot seas and 70+ mph winds as it seems those conditions are very rare......but 35 mph winds during a severe thunderstorm is pretty likely I would think.

psneeld said:

Maybe there were enough escape routes that exiting the rear wasnt necessary.

The advantage of remaining calm and thinking.....

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Were bodies found in the boat or did everybody get out and then drown?

The side curtains could be rolled up. Were they just hanging or were they fastened at the bottom?

An update:

The USCG determined the deaths resulted from "misconduct, negligence, or inattention to the duties" by the captain. That is a federal criminal violation.

They're also looking into the conduct of the captain of the duck boat that made it back safely to determine if he violated the same law and into officials at the company that operates the duck boats. "Several agents/employees/officers of Ripley already have been notified that they are subjects and/or targets" according to a motion in the civil cases by the US government requesting they be allowed to talk to the witnesses and participants and conclude the criminal investigation and criminal proceedings before the civil discovery.

In addition, the state of Missouri is looking into criminal liability and the NTSB is still investigating the cause of the sinking.

BandB said:

An update:

The USCG determined the deaths resulted from "misconduct, negligence, or inattention to the duties" by the captain. That is a federal criminal violation.

They're also looking into the conduct of the captain of the duck boat that made it back safely to determine if he violated the same law and into officials at the company that operates the duck boats. "Several agents/employees/officers of Ripley already have been notified that they are subjects and/or targets" according to a motion in the civil cases by the US government requesting they be allowed to talk to the witnesses and participants and conclude the criminal investigation and criminal proceedings before the civil discovery.

In addition, the state of Missouri is looking into criminal liability and the NTSB is still investigating the cause of the sinking.

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Such an unfortunate crazy mess!
Seemingly avoidable.

Aboard boat, my dad used to say: "When in doubt you may scream and shout... if weather seems too bad, For Christ Sake Don't Go Out"!!

Boston duck tours

There is a fleet of over 50 duck boats and every summer 2 or 3 times they are one the news
accidents left and right,couple of em sank,people injured I cant even believe how they are even insured,then that huge accident in Missouri killing 17 people,one sank and everyone
drowned,I'd never go on one,would be a cool summer job drivin one though

Did you read all the posts and the linked article below and find out not all Duck boats are created equal ?

psneeld said:

While subject to inspection, some things must be subject to exemption.....with exemptions, usually restrictions follow.

And as far as licensing goes, some is required as passengers are involved, not sure if a full masters is required or water taxi level would be OKed.

Here's an article with more about duck boats than anyone ever wanted to know... One thing tho, it seems most duck boats are not even true WWII replicas but built in appearance only and the rest to modern specs.

https://billypenn.com/2015/06/01/du...and-the-water-and-who-makes-sure-theyre-safe/

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During last couple od decades: Been on Duck Boat three times in different locations. Was fun... however somewhat chancy, such as life is when having fun. All three captains seemed good and the "boats" were in acceptable condition.

Lostsailor13 said:

There is a fleet of over 50 duck boats and every summer 2 or 3 times they are one the news
accidents left and right,couple of em sank,people injured I cant even believe how they are even insured,then that huge accident in Missouri killing 17 people,one sank and everyone
drowned,I'd never go on one,would be a cool summer job drivin one though

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It seems most of the accidents are on land. The poor visibility combined with Boston drivers and heavy traffic is a tough combination. When they go in the water it is very protected water right near the Museum of Science. I've been on them and found them very enjoyable and a great way to see the city when out of towners come to visit.