Who had right of way?

swampu said:

What is a good book to buy to educate myself on these rules? Pm me please

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You have one of these, right?

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/images/Navrules_lg.jpg

So a little digression (not that there hasn't been plenty on this thread!).

If you are the stand-on vessel and you decided that the give-way vessel is not going to change course to avoid a meeting, you then either alter speed or course. The give-way boat, knowing he is give-way, also changes course at the the same - and a collision occurs.

Does the at-fault percentages for the stand-on vessel change?

I am surprised that in this lengthy thread

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Nobody else is

menzies said:

You have one of these, right?

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/images/Navrules_lg.jpg

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Hard copies are usually on the shelf at West Marine for around $15.

menzies said:

So a little digression (not that there hasn't been plenty on this thread!).

If you are the stand-on vessel and you decided that the give-way vessel is not going to change course to avoid a meeting, you then either alter speed or course. The give-way boat, knowing he is give-way, also changes course at the the same - and a collision occurs.

Does the at-fault percentages for the stand-on vessel change?

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Good point. At some stage the give way/stand on rules, which are supposed to regulate conduct so boats know what they are to do and what to expect of others, suddenly flips to avoidance no matter what.
And that messes up the basic rules, no one knows what avoiding action others will take, and an avoid/avoid collision is very possible.

In that case I`d revert to "who created the avoidance need to start with". Answer: the give way boat.

For emergency collision avoidance....its usually always both need turn to starboard, never turn in front of another vessel, make appropriate speed changes based on turn radius, advance and transfer......which are not usually a big deal with smaller vessels. I am pretty sure they become more pronounced with vessel size depending on design features.

This is assuming there was reasonable conditions and seamanship prior to the extremis situation.

BruceK said:

At some stage the give way/stand on rules, which are supposed to regulate conduct so boats know what they are to do and what to expect of others, suddenly flips to avoidance no matter what.
And that messes up the basic rules...

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But that IS one of the basic rules.

psneeld said:

For emergency collision avoidance....its usually always both need turn to starboard, never turn in front of another vessel, make appropriate speed changes based on turn radius, advance and transfer......which are not usually a big deal with smaller vessels. I am pretty sure they become more pronounced with vessel size dependinv on design features.

This is assuming there was reasonable conditions and seamanship prior to the extremis situation.

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Turn to port, see you in court.

ksanders said:

Ths is hilarious.

With regards to sail boats under sail power vs recreatonal power boats....

There are very few instances where a recreational power boat has “stand on” privileges. Very few.

Perhaps when a boat under sail power overtakes a power boat, but that rarely happens...

Perhaps in a narrow channel, but in all my time seeing sail boats few tend to operater under sail in a narrow channel.

There are several perhapses, but the reality is that almost every interaction that actually happens between recreational power boats and sailboats under sail power, require the power boat to give way.

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Visit the Clear Creek channel where it runs between Seabrook and Kemah, TX on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

Rule 17 some what addresses when a give way vessel doesnt comply.

Not a lot of direction ....but it is addressed by leaving the best method to avoid the collision up to the captain with the caveat not to go to portif the vessel is over there in any way.

And yet the safest way for a give-way vessel to avoid the stand-on vessel is to go behind his stern. That means going to starboard. Of course making that decision and showing the course change or communicating it well in advance, reduces or eliminates the risk.

High Wire said:

Hard copies are usually on the shelf at West Marine for around $15.

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Just checked--$8.99 on Amazon--free delivery with Prime.

Hey, here's the solution. Remove all navigational aids. Just fight it out with canon fire.
Would that make everyone happy? Do not show other boaters any respect.
Colregs cannot cover nor were they to address all situations.
Basically, there is 1 rule, do all that is possible to avoid causing loss of life and/or damage. Attempt to contact the other boat via the VHF and or hail horn to determine their intentions. If they do not respond to the radio and your signaling device then, assume every one on board is dead and be prepared to take evasive actions
You can make up all the IFs and Buts you want. The rules cannot cover all circumstances. The rules were not intended to cover all circumstances. Use the common sense you were born with and take take evasions actions and if you can get the name and hail port of the other vessel, report it immediately to the USCG as will I.
There may be a medical emergency onboard the other boat.

With that, I shall read a limited number of comments condemning me, then I shall withdraw from this discussion. It is obviously going no where.

You guys do know that it is a requirement to have a copy on board?

OldDan1943 said:

With that, I shall read a limited number of comments condemning me, then I shall withdraw from this discussion. It is obviously going no where.

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“Maybe you who condemn me are in greater fear than I who am condemned.”

Greetings,
Mr. OD. I'm with you pal. I know a few of the colregs BUT I've got the same rule. Avoid an accident at all costs.

menzies said:

You guys do know that it is a requirement to have a copy on board?

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Having a current copy on board and having to read, in time of stress, are two different things. Then you have to convince the other vessel that you are correct.
So much for Plan A.

I used to live in Italy, and there are some parts in the south (Naples) where all traffic laws go out the window: red lights, one-ways, speed limits, all of them. And yet there are surprisingly few accidents. Everyone lives by one simple rule: just don’t hit anybody.

I find that works pretty well on the water as well.

schrater said:

I used to live in Italy, and there are some parts in the south (Naples) where all traffic laws go out the window: red lights, one-ways, speed limits, all of them. And yet there are surprisingly few accidents. Everyone lives by one simple rule: just don’t hit anybody.

I find that works pretty well on the water as well.

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I was always impressed with the traffic at a round about. LOL

Yup, I am also happily oblivious to the majority of colregs.

In open water with practically no traffic and plenty of room to manoeuvre it is all just common sense. It is easy to stay clear of the one boat on the horizon.

I admit that if the waterways were as busy as what some other members boat in, a different approach would be necessary.

menzies said:

You guys do know that it is a requirement to have a copy on board?

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Yes, I keep mine in the cabinet right next to Chart #1 which is also mandatory but few carry.

OldDan1943 said:

Hey, here's the solution. Remove all navigational aids. Just fight it out with canon fire....With that, I shall read a limited number of comments condemning me, then I shall withdraw from this discussion. It is obviously going no where.

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Since early on, the task of coming up with unlikely scenarios not based on any available material whereby the sailboat can be held responsible, has been enthusiastically prosecuted. In the very best traditions of TF.

OD, how could you possibly deprive yourself of reading such inventive theories?

BruceK said:

Since early on, the task of coming up with unlikely scenarios not based on any available material whereby the sailboat can be held responsible, has been enthusiastically prosecuted. In the very best traditions of TF.

OD, how could you possibly deprive yourself of reading such inventive theories?

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Very easily. I have remove myself from more than one board. Another comes to mind, "Guns on board".

All discussion aside, my money says that the person at the helm of the power boat was simply not paying attention.

That is based on the photo.

I DO NOT think this is a situaton where either boat said “I have the right of way” and just let the collision happen.

I think that the sail boat was crossing the power boats path, and probably wonders why the power boat did not change course, and by the time the sail boat realized that the power boat was not going to change course he/she had little they could do.

Think about the angles, draw it out. A sail boat cannot increase or decrease speed as quickly as a power boat, nor can they make major fast course corrections.

But... A little manuverable power boat (like the one in the photo) can.

Now Kevin, distilling sensible conclusions from available information just won`t do. Stop it.

BruceK said:

Now Kevin, distilling sensible conclusions from available information just won`t do. Stop it.

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Bruce, in your previous post you alluded to the root of the problem, quite eloquently BTW

The Other Gary said:

Yes, I keep mine in the cabinet right next to Chart #1 which is also mandatory but few carry.

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There is no time to consult the Colregs when a collision appears imminent.

The Other Gary said:

Yes, I keep mine in the cabinet right next to Chart #1 which is also mandatory but few carry.

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Yeah, I have both in a rack right behind my helm chair.

Theres a lot more meat in the Navrules than just avoiding a collision.

Its better to just do what you THINK is best rather than follow some VERY general rules debated for decades by experts.

Wow......

OldDan1943 said:

Hey, here's the solution. Remove all navigational aids. Just fight it out with canon fire.
Would that make everyone happy? Do not show other boaters any respect.
Colregs cannot cover nor were they to address all situations.
Basically, there is 1 rule, do all that is possible to avoid causing loss of life and/or damage. Attempt to contact the other boat via the VHF and or hail horn to determine their intentions. If they do not respond to the radio and your signaling device then, assume every one on board is dead and be prepared to take evasive actions
You can make up all the IFs and Buts you want. The rules cannot cover all circumstances. The rules were not intended to cover all circumstances. Use the common sense you were born with and take take evasions actions and if you can get the name and hail port of the other vessel, report it immediately to the USCG as will I.
There may be a medical emergency onboard the other boat.

With that, I shall read a limited number of comments condemning me, then I shall withdraw from this discussion. It is obviously going no where.

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Get yourself some big should pads and carry the load proudly. You are in the company of many. You will not get the last word either as this horse is continued to be beaten. Carry the scorn with pride.