Who had right of way?

ksanders said:

I’m having a hard time visualizing that.

It looks to me like the sail boat crossed in front of the power boat, who apears to have hit the sail boat at a high enough rate of speed to climb up on the sail boat.

Based on the power boat climbing up on the sail boat I would venture to guess that the power boat was up on plane, a speed pretty difficult to overtake by a sail boat.

Perhaps there is more than I am seeing... but the photo does not seem to support a theory that the sail boat was overtaking the power boat.

This looks like a broadside collission to me.

Click to expand...

I see the confusion now. He was making up an example to illustrate how a sail boat under sail doesn't ALWAY have precedence over a power boat. The precedence hierarchy is for crossing situations. When overtaking, there is no distinction between a sail or other boat.

Back to the mishap, from the picture of the aftermath, one would assume the boats were both traveling in their now entangled directions leading up to the crash. And we assume that the sail boat was exclusively under sail. If both those assumptions are true, then the sailboat had priority and the power boat should have given way.


But we don't really know what lead up to this. For example, I have seen many sail boats tack in close quarters, creating a collision risk where one didn't exist before. Many seem to think that it's the burdened vessel's job to dodge them no matter what they do, failing to understand that they have an equal responsibility to maintain course and speed until the collision risk has passed. If something like that happened, then it's a different story.


Or maybe the boats were approaching each other in a very different manner, and their attempt to avoid a collision resulted in the pictured entanglement. Who knows.

twistedtree said:

It's in the definition of a Towing Vessel, Par 26:02, page 215. I see I'm not alone is missing it......

Click to expand...

I see the definition in the CFRs concerning towing vessels, but not in the Navrules or Colregs.

I can understand commercial being in the CFRs for regulating tow vessels...but I don't think commercial or recreational applies to ANY vessel n the Rules...towing, fishing, diving, etc. Espescially because they are international and to he USCGs definition isn't worldwide most likely. Inland rules are based but not strictly on the international rules.

If by the nature of your work you are RAM, you dayshape, light and radio so. Even commercial tow vessels are not RAM unless they declare so.

twistedtree said:

I see the confusion now. He was making up an example to illustrate how a sail boat under sail doesn't ALWAY have precedence over a power boat. The precedence hierarchy is for crossing situations. When overtaking, there is no distinction between a sail or other boat.

Click to expand...

Thank you.
My point in my example is that sailboats under sail do not ALWAYS have a special privilege. Yes most of the time they do. I have been yelled at by those in sailboats (some with engines running and yes actually being overtaken by an 18’ Hobie Cat while idling through a Slow Speed/Minimum Wake Zone) that “Sailboats ALWAYS have the right of way”. I fault their instructors for passing on this ignorance.
Rule 18 calls out specific Exceptions. Overtaking is just one situation where a sailboat under sail is not stand on.

In the pic by the OP? Wasn’t there so no clue who did what.

Weren’t right of way rules vacated the second a collision became evident?

Last words of dying man after a car accident " But I had a green light". I do not give a sh.. who have the right a way. If someone is about to hurt me - I move out of way.

Gmarr...not really... a potential collision is where action by the give way vessel to prevent it is still posdible.

"In Extremis"is where action by the give way vessel only will still result in a collision so the give way vessel must now take action to prevent it.

And even then there are preferred actions over a fred for all.

When a third vessel is involved, the standard rules quickly become moot.

nodestination said:

Last words of dying man after a car accident " But I had a green light". I do not give a sh.. who have the right a way. If someone is about to hurt me - I move out of way.

Click to expand...

Thats what the rules say to do.

It's not rocket science...... nor the rule of tonnage or other amatuerish expressions.

It's simply following the rules till a situation arises....if it ever does...that requires the acts of a prudent seaman.

Avoid collisions at all costs....but not gy arbitrary manuevering well before extremis is encountered.

Gmarr said:

Weren’t right of way rules vacated the second a collision became evident?

Click to expand...

I am not sure if "vacated" is the correct word. Everyone involved and witnesses will be called to defend their actions then the maritime court will distribute the blame as the court see fit.

This conversation seems to point out long standing misconceptions of: “what my dad told me, when I was a young un’ and I told my son; so the rules is still the rules” quotes. People want to ‘pick and choose’ the rule that supports their argument. Unfortunately at a CG hearing post accident your ‘Argument’ becomes overruled. All because of: ‘sailboats always have the right of way, I’m bigger, I’m restricted because I’m towing a dinghy, I’m bigger than he is, so I can demand draft priority, and many of the phrases mentioned earlier’ are NOT the intent of Colregs. Colregs is not an escape of responsibility but a direction toward responsibility. People need to understand that about 1969 the old rules went out and were replaced by Colregs. Everything (well, almost everything) you learned at the yacht club and at the ‘post cruise’ dinner is misdirection simply from ‘old wives tales’.
Also. Constrained by draft does NOT exist in Inland waters. Narrow channels and under 20 meters does.

Regarding the OP. There isn’t enough info to tell exactly what happened.

This reminds me of when first learning to sail my friend warned me we could be sailing along happy as clams and then “all hell breaks loose”.

I’d be interested in who, on each respective boat had watch, and the lies they tell.

I am surprised that in this lengthy thread, no one brought up a vessel not in command. The sailboat noticed the powerboat on a collision course a "long way off"....if the power boat continuted to come straight at the sailboat, did not respond to audible, visual, or vhf signaling, and collided with the sailboat, it seems pretty obvious there was no one in command of the powerboat. Obviously whoever was supposed to be in command of the powerboat is at fault, but I think the sailboater is also at fault for watching this situation develop and not taking corrective action. I would probably split blame 50/50 on this.

On an interesting side note.....The dynamic of online forums is always kind of amusing to me. No matter how general a statement is, someone will always take exception to it, and go way off topic to start an argument.

So...if I solar powered fishing vessel is dragging a net in a channel at night going with the current and has a 15 foot draft is about to colide with a kayak being paddled by a robot going upstream, does the sailboat still have the right of way ?

twistedtree said:

I see the confusion now. He was making up an example to illustrate how a sail boat under sail doesn't ALWAY have precedence over a power boat. The precedence hierarchy is for crossing situations. When overtaking, there is no distinction between a sail or other boat.

Click to expand...

OK, I understand and agree!

Benthic2 said:

I am surprised that in this lengthy thread, no one brought up a vessel not in command. The sailboat noticed the powerboat on a collision course a "long way off"....if the power boat continuted to come straight at the sailboat, did not respond to audible, visual, or vhf signaling, and collided with the sailboat, it seems pretty obvious there was no one in command of the powerboat. Obviously whoever was supposed to be in command of the powerboat is at fault, but I think the sailboater is also at fault for watching this situation develop and not taking corrective action. I would probably split blame 50/50 on this.

On an interesting side note.....The dynamic of online forums is always kind of amusing to me. No matter how general a statement is, someone will always take exception to it, and go way off topic to start an argument.

So...if I solar powered fishing vessel is dragging a net in a channel at night going with the current and has a 15 foot draft is about to colide with a kayak being paddled by a robot going upstream, does the sailboat still have the right of way ?

Click to expand...

The sailboat always has the right away and you can bet on that in Las Vegas, absolutely without question. Or so I read it on the internet. SO it must be true.

Ths is hilarious.

With regards to sail boats under sail power vs recreatonal power boats....

There are very few instances where a recreational power boat has “stand on” privileges. Very few.

Perhaps when a boat under sail power overtakes a power boat, but that rarely happens...

Perhaps in a narrow channel, but in all my time seeing sail boats few tend to operater under sail in a narrow channel.

There are several perhapses, but the reality is that almost every interaction that actually happens between recreational power boats and sailboats under sail power, require the power boat to give way.

Kevin, that works with me except when a privileged sailboats changes course while required to maintain course as the privileged vessel (thus not overtaking the other vessel.)

markpierce said:

Kevin, that works with me except when a privileged sailboats changes course while required to maintain course as the privileged vessel (thus not overtaking the other vessel.)

Click to expand...

I agree!

What is a good book to buy to educate myself on these rules? Pm me please

hmason said:

It actually goes deeper than that. If the motor was running it doesn’t necessarily mean it was in gear and propelling the boat. A fine point but accurate.

Click to expand...

Does anyone have a cite on this. I have always thought the distinction was whether the motor was running and not whether the engine was in gear.

swampu said:

What is a good book to buy to educate myself on these rules? Pm me please

Click to expand...

Here is a link to a PDF https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...navrules.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0GM6Ptxf6cF44wPNxwomXK


Someone posted it earlier as well. You can also buy it in paperback. There are very few things where the rules are international, and the nav rules are one of them.


For boats over something like 40' (I don't recall the exact number) you are required to have a copy on board.


It's probably worth suggesting that one of the best ways to learn all this is to go get yourself a USCG license, or at least go through the training. Even for just a 6-pack license, you will learn a lot.

Here lies the body of Michael O'Day
Who died maintaining his Right of Way
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

From a Power Squadron guide to the Rules.
I suspect the ditty is from a time past when more people had a stronger sense of self-preservation and less a sense of entitlement.

Benthic2 said:

I am surprised that in this lengthy thread, no one brought up a vessel not in command. The sailboat noticed the powerboat on a collision course a "long way off"....if the power boat continuted to come straight at the sailboat, did not respond to audible, visual, or vhf signaling, and collided with the sailboat, it seems pretty obvious there was no one in command of the powerboat. Obviously whoever was supposed to be in command of the powerboat is at fault, but I think the sailboater is also at fault for watching this situation develop and not taking corrective action. I would probably split blame 50/50 on this.

Click to expand...

This is another area where snippets of the rules are often quoted out of context.


Not Under Command (NUC) is related to vessels that are broken, and hence not responsive to operator commands in some important way. Loss of power, broken steering gear, etc. would be examples. A captain not paying attention, asleep, or below in the head taking a dump do not count, and are themselves a violation of the requirement to always maintain an effective watch.


And like a vessel constrained by fishing gear, or constrained by draft, or of restricted maneuverability, the vessel needs to declare that status and show lights and/or day shapes to indicate.

swampu said:

What is a good book to buy to educate myself on these rules? Pm me please

Click to expand...

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=NavRulesAmalgamated

And it's published in hardcopy paperback book format too.

-Chris

Bay Pelican said:

Does anyone have a cite on this. I have always thought the distinction was whether the motor was running and not whether the engine was in gear.

Click to expand...

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=NavRulesAmalgamated#rule3

See b and c.

-Chris

Boat said:

Here lies the body of Michael O'Day
Who died maintaining his Right of Way
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

From a Power Squadron guide to the Rules.
I suspect the ditty is from a time past when more people had a stronger sense of self-preservation and less a sense of entitlement.

Click to expand...

I think it's for people who are steadfast in their resistance to learning the rules, and in particular, ALL the rules. Most tell you what to do so that approaching boats never get into a dangerous situation in the first place. That's the goal. But when you do get into a dangerous situation because someone isn't doing what they are supposed to, it's the responsibility of both captains to do everything possible to not collide. They even say what to do in a panic situation so that the two boats steer away from each other rather than into each other

A prudent mariner steers his small boat away from any vessel that may be a stand on vessel or even just less manueverable......wayyyyy early if possible. The rules cover this. (Rules 2 & 8 as a minimum)

But there are many times when this is not possible and therefore the rules become much more specific and important. Rhymes and rules of thumb dont cut it...and arbitrary manuevering by non rule follwers just makes life less safe out there for the people trying to follow the rules.

Rhymes are learned by beginners to help them learn the basics........then as we grow towards higher levels of learning....we read the actual rules and regulations.

When I taught the basic boating class to kids and newbies....sure cute sayings abounded. When I taught captains licensing, we taught the book of Navrules and that test you needed a higher percentage to pass.

If Rhymes work so well, why doesnt the USCG use them?

Does every boater need to know all of them cold? No, but arguing that not needing them and just using Rhymes and rules of thumb is a little scary to me.

psneeld said:

A prudent mariner steers his small boat away from any vessel that may be a stand on vessel or even just less manueverable......wayyyyy early if possible. The rules cover this. (Rules 2 & 8 as a minimum)

But there are many times when this is not possible and therefore the rules become much more specific and important. Rhymes and rules of thumb dont cut it...and arbitrary manuevering by non rule follwers just makes life less safe out there for the people trying to follow the rules.

Rhymes are learned by beginners to help them learn the basics........then as we grow towards higher levels of learning....we read the actual rules and regulations.

When I taught the basic boating class to kids and newbies....sure cute sayings abounded. When I taught captains licensing, we taught the book of Navrules and that test you needed a higher percentage to pass.

If Rhymes work so well, why doesnt the USCG use them?

Does every boater need to know all of them cold? No, but arguing that not needing them and just using Rhymes and rules of thumb is a little scary to me.

Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with rhymes and acronyms to remember things. It's used a lot in the aviation industry, even by the "old salt" senior captains. Whatever it take to get the job done. With the basic words and "book" learning you only remember about 10% of what you read..... so you need to go over it 10 times..... or use a cleaver acronym to remember it much easier.

Seevee said:

Nothing wrong with rhymes and acronyms to remember things. It's used a lot in the aviation industry, even by the "old salt" senior captains. Whatever it take to get the job done. With the basic words and "book" learning you only remember about 10% of what you read..... so you need to go over it 10 times..... or use a cleaver acronym to remember it much easier.

Click to expand...

Yeah, yeah....learned all those as a BEGINNER pilot....and a BEGINNER captain....no I am not so stupid to not understand the diffetence in rhymes about gross tonnage for the Power Squadron and acronyms for a takeoff or landing checklist.

As I just posted earlier....the cutsie ones are useful in the beggining..... holding on to them and not progressing in one's learning curve....to me is scary.

Hi


Both are guilty!




Both violated the rules of 5,6,7 and 8. The engine of the boat violated the obligation to avoid Rule 16. I am thinking of guilty of breaking 20% ​​sail 80% of a motorboat according to the aforementioned colores rule.


Here's a similar type of accident about a month ago. A little boat drove 90 ° from the left sea rays foward, at both speeds about 25 knots. The case is going to justice and the two leaders are accused. On a smaller boat, there were 2 adults and 1 child and 2 dogs.





NBs

markpierce said:

Kevin, that works with me except when a privileged sailboats changes course while required to maintain course as the privileged vessel (thus not overtaking the other vessel.)

Click to expand...

This is where it gets sticky, to me at least, especially in a sailboat, and I don't see that part discussed anywhere near as much as the actions required of the give-way vessel. The stand-on vessel is required to maintain course and speed, presumably so the give-way vessel can predict it's movements and take evasive action early. At some point, if the give-way vessel doesn't appear to be taking evasive action, the stand-on vessel needs to do something, which can be confusing to the give-way vessel potentially. And if you wait long enough with no one taking any action, the stand-on vessel is required to take action, though if there's no wind, that's difficult in a sailboat. I've started the auxiliary in a hurry and high-tailed into a powered tack or jibe when it became apparent (to me at least) that the other vessel wasn't going to change course or speed. And it's difficult to know when sometimes.



Rule 17- Action by Stand-on Vessel (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed. (emphasis added)
(ii) The latter vessel may, however, take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.

The above is also described in many more words in Chapman's, though that does not carry the weight of law.


Edited to add: I suspect the reason for the change from 'burdened' and 'privileged' vessels to 'give-way' and 'stand-on' was to dispel the notion of 'right-of-way'.