Red Tide - Charlotte Harbor

As I said before, there is more than one problem facing the lake and the glades. But the biggest problem, and the historical problem stems from big sugar and the influence they have exerted over our political leaders on both the state and federal level.


Mote Marine Labs, perhaps the most respected marine biologists in the world, have stated that there is a likely connection between nutrient outflows and the rate of growth of red tide once it nears the coast. The "blue green algae does not cause red tide" line is a nice bit of verbal gymnastics. Not technically a lie, but not exactly accurate either. A lot like "I did not have sex with that woman."


The problem is deciding who to vote for. Personally, I couldn't care less what party they are associated with, I just want our next governor and senators to stand up for the people of the state without being on the take.



Yes, Rick Scott and Putnam have a sorry history with the sugar industry. Putnam in particular, and his current campaign is heavily funded by agriculture. But Gwen Graham and Bill Nelson also have a history of taking large donations. While Scott was doing nothing on the state level to fix the problem, Bill Nelson was equally paralyzed on the federal level. Where do you turn?

Doug, I’m having the same problem as you. I don’t like anybody who is running for office down here. I received a link from this organization that might help us pick the best of a bad lot.
https://www.bullsugar.org/vote2018

FF said:

When reality is out of fashion (not PC) hate myths become common.

BIG , anything is always an easy target.

Farmers , all types not just "Big Sugar" use their income to purchase fertilizer.

It is used in minimum amounts to keep the cost down.

If there is a soup of fertilizer washing in to rivers , it is more likely from the thousands of lawns from the thousands of new homes for the thousands of folks escaping the North, weather and taxation.


Like the Chessy lake O drains a huge area and gets it all,and suffers.

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I think you’re right about farmers not using more fertilizer than necessary. My guess is that a lot of the nutrients come from the huge cattle ranches north of the lake, cow poop.

perhaps you will believe FWC
Red Tide FAQ


"Is the Florida red tide found in estuaries, bays or freshwater systems?
The Florida red tide can be found in bays and estuaries but not in freshwater systems such as lakes and rivers. Because K. brevis cannot tolerate low-salinity waters for very long, blooms usually remain in salty coastal waters and do not penetrate upper reaches of estuaries. However, other harmful algae, including cyanobacteria (blue-green algae), typically bloom in freshwater lakes and rivers"

Hard to blame this on FL polititians

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast30aug_1

"Hard to blame this on FL polititians

https://science.nasa.gov/science-new...001/ast30aug_1"

You are right red tide its all D Trump's fault.

The forest fired in Calif , its all D Trump's fault.

The hurricane near Hawaii, its all D Trump's fault.

The volcano in Hawaii, its all D Trump's fault.

100 shot in a week in Chicago, its all D Trump's fault.

How dare NASA blow the narrative?

From Mote Marine Labs.

Can coastal nutrient pollution worsen an existing Florida red tide that has moved to shore?

Yes, the scientific data available so far suggest that it is possible for nutrients flowing from land to sea — including natural AND human-contributed nutrients carried by storm water runoff and the input of rivers — to serve as additional “food” for growth of Karenia brevis red tide blooms that have moved to shore.

However, the process is very complex. K. brevis can use at least 12 sources of nitrogen and phosphorous nutrients, and some of those sources include human-contributed nutrients. Mote scientists partnered in major research efforts to gather that knowledge. Read a 2014 summary: https://mote.org/news/article/nutrients-that-feed-red-tide-under-the-microscope-in-major-study

In short, we know human-contributed nutrients can affect a coastal red tide, and we must expand our data and monitoring efforts to confirm whether and how they did in each specific case.

https://mote.org/news/florida-red-tide#Has coastal (nutrient) pollution caused the Florida red tide?

Cardude gets it.


I know people are skimming this thread (I do it all the time too) but the point is not that red tide is coming from the lake, it's not. Or that red tide is not a naturally occurring organism, which it is.



The point is that the nutrients that are being dumped into the gulf at an alarming rate are making the red tide much, much worse.


On the Gulf coast the red tide is basically stretching from Naples in the South to Sarasota in the North. It's worst near Ft. Myers and Sanibel, which are right between Naples and Sarasota. The Caloosahatchee river drains from Lake O. It comes out into the Gulf in....wait for it....wait for it.....



Fort Myers.


I live on the Gulf Coast now in North Florida, Wakulla County, about 350 miles from the mouth of the Caloosahatchee. No cases of catastrophic red tide here. Or anywhere else in the state for that matter.


One last time. Sugar is responsible in multiple ways. They have historically polluted the lake. They won't give up the land that was basically gifted to them by the state so that the water can be cleaned then allowed to flow south to glades like it should. The glades are drying up. Filthy water is being pumped into the St. Lucie River on the East and the Caloosahatchee River on the West, causing all sorts of environmental disasters. Big Sugar has paid tens of millions of dollars to politicians of both parties on the state and federal level to protect their interests over the needs of the people of the state of Florida.



No, Sugar is clearly not the only problem, other sources are fouling the lake as well. But they are a very big part of the problem and they are standing in the way of the only viable solution.

There is a big difference between correlation and causality.

On the Gulf coast the red tide is basically stretching from Naples in the South to Sarasota in the North. It's worst near Ft. Myers and Sanibel, which are right between Naples and Sarasota. The Caloosahatchee river drains from Lake O. It comes out into the Gulf in....wait for it....wait for it.....

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Agreed about causation and correlation. There's also common sense.


So what, we just don't do anything about the run off since we can't absolutely prove that it is making the red tide much worse? And because the only people who benefit from the current situation claim they aren't the problem? Or at least say they aren't the only problem?



There's plenty of very strong reasons to get this fixed and not one reason not to act. We can't make things any worse.


The only valid argument that the sugar guys have is the loss of jobs that would come from a partial shutdown to their industry. I do sympathize with the mostly poor people who will lose their jobs because the industry they work in is harming the environment.


But what about all the people who are losing jobs right now because of the problem? Their jobs don't matter as much?

HopCar said:

Doug, I’m having the same problem as you. I don’t like anybody who is running for office down here. I received a link from this organization that might help us pick the best of a bad lot.
https://www.bullsugar.org/vote2018

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Hey Parks,


Yes, Bullsugar is doing good work. So is captains for clean water.


It's a lot about education. I don't think people in other parts of the US understand how bad it is getting here.



I've got to vote tomorrow and I'm still undecided.

I’m gonna say the Democrats running, while not perfect, will be better stewards of the environment.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/10715792

The world carries an excessive and increasing population needing food. That requires aggressive land clearing and agriculture, nutrient rich run off included. Get used to it.

BruceK said:

The world carries an excessive and increasing population needing food. That requires aggressive land clearing and agriculture, nutrient rich run off included. Get used to it.

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Yeah, but the world needs clean water one hell of lot more than it needs overpriced sugar.

Seems like the majority of Sugar Cane grown in FL is in Palm Beach County. The area adjacent to Lake O produces the higher quality "white", but is not the majority of production.


You want to blame "big sugar", lets find an evil profit oriented corporation to blame it on.


What about the Corp or Engineers? Channelization of the Kississime river eliminated the natural filter.
Opening up the navigation channels started the flows from the lake to the coasts.


Back pumping south to north (in those rare cases it occurs) is done why? To maintain lake levels during dry periods.

Medevaced a really high percentage of premature babies out of that area from migrant families when I was stationed in Miami....diagnosed with conditions attributed to insecticide abuse.

Big sugar has had a bad reputation back to 1980 and earlier as far as I know.

It's what we don't know that is scary....

May not be the evil empire but.....

Here is my plan when I become King of Florida.

Restore the natural flow of the Kissimmee River so it flows through marshes where cattails will remove much of the nutrients.

Complete the repairs to the dike around lake O so that the Corps is not forced to release so much water all at once.

Get some of the sugar growers south of the lake to convert to rice cultivation which would both clean the water and provide an income for them. I understand that crayfish can be raised in rice paddies giving a second source of income. Rice is already a small but profitable crop south of the lake.

The now pretty clean water flows south through the Everglades where it is needed.

Thanks for that refreshing “solution” based post, Parks. What would it take to get you to Tallahassee?

HopCar said:

Here is my plan when I become King of Florida.

Restore the natural flow of the Kissimmee River so it flows through marshes where cattails will remove much of the nutrients.

Complete the repairs to the dike around lake O so that the Corps is not forced to release so much water all at once.

Get some of the sugar growers south of the lake to convert to rice cultivation which would both clean the water and provide an income for them. I understand that crayfish can be raised in rice paddies giving a second source of income. Rice is already a small but profitable crop south of the lake.

The now pretty clean water flows south through the Everglades where it is needed.

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If only the Trawler Forum had a like function.

Vote for Parks!

Back pumping south to north (in those rare cases it occurs) is done why? To maintain lake levels during dry periods.[/QUOTE]




My understanding is that the back pumping is done during periods of high water when the "land" south of the lake gets too wet and begins to harm the cane and also threaten the homes of those who live south of the lake. Most of whom live there because they work in the sugar cane industry.



Back pumping water to Lake Okeechobee brings environmental concerns - Sun Sentinel

Dougcole said:

Back pumping south to north (in those rare cases it occurs) is done why? To maintain lake levels during dry periods.

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My understanding is that the back pumping is done during periods of high water when the "land" south of the lake gets too wet and begins to harm the cane and also threaten the homes of those who live south of the lake. Most of whom live there because they work in the sugar cane industry.



Back pumping water to Lake Okeechobee brings environmental concerns - Sun Sentinel[/QUOTE]


thank you for the clarification - totally willing to accept additional information. OK that I am not always right, will express my thoughts - but open to correction - great thing about a chat community.

Thought about this some more, not limited to this site - but general reading about this issue across multiple sources. Lots of blame placed on the Governor of FL. Boat is there in the winter, but I live in Texas. Not familiar with FL politics.

Not even sure if the governor is a R or a D - I could get the answer on google I know. But I don't think my question matters on which party the governor is from.

What specific actions could the Governor of FL take to solve this issue?

I keep hearing about big sugar influence - etc. Ok, what can the governor do? What specific steps are the lobbyist preventing?

Too often all of us get caught up in the narrative as presented by media. We need to dig deeper to understand.

Footballfan, actually the State has been fairly pro-active. A lot of the problem is our weak representation in Congress. The Feds started funding several projects then cut off funding.

There are large areas south of the lake that have been stripped to bare rock in preparation for building holding areas that now are just sitting there with heavy equipment rusting.

The dike around the lake should have been repaired years ago but Congress won’t give the Corp of Eng. enough money to finish it.

I think the same thing has happened with the restoration of the Kissimmee River.

I suspect that the State could do more but tax money flows North in Florida. Not nearly enough comes back south from Tallahassee.

"So what, we just don't do anything about the run off since we can't absolutely prove that it is making the red tide much worse?"

Stop the sale of all lawn and garden fertilizer for non farm use.

And see what happens.

Amateurs think if a little is good a bit more is better.

2000-3000 new arrivals each week might be adding to the problem.

Capitaine R said:

Some people down here may disagree about this extremely large out break being a natural occurring event.

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There's been an early onset of extreme rain and it has to go somewhere. It seems like common sense to me.

It's a can of worms that locals are understandably extremely upset about but emotion doesn't trump data.

I don't have the data but IMO EVERYONE living there shares the burden..


Equally? We'll see.

The population doesn't like being told they are part of the problem so the fingers go pointing.

I think a big part of it is the canals far far away from the ocean and locals either not caring or not knowing that what they put in their yards(or directly in the canal) 50 miles from the beach ends up there. I've seen this first hand outside of Naples,FL.

Hey (future) King Hopcar,

Please unobstruct and remove the worthless locks and dams on the Ocklawaha River which were built for the never completed Cross Florida Canal when you ascend to the throne!

Donsan said:

Hey (future) King Hopcar,

Please unobstruct and remove the worthless locks and dams on thr Oklawaha River which were built for the never completed Cross Florida Canal when you ascend to the throne!

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I’ll do that. Didn’t Margery Kennan Rollins write a story about going down that river in a small boat?

HopCar said:

I’ll do that. Didn’t Margery Kennan Rollins write a story about going down that river in a small boat?

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If Margery Kinnan Rawlings wrote such a story but I am unaware of it and have never read her writings. What I have read is about paddle wheel steamboats traversing the Ocklawaha in the 1800's.

Donsan you would enjoy her writing. Thanks for correcting the spelling of her name.

As I recall she wrote a short story about rowing down the river to the St. John’s with another woman.

My perception is the channelization to connect Lake Okeechobee to the respective rivers on each side provides the pathway for gunk to flow out to each coast.


As boaters - would we be willing to give up the route?


In the 30's when it started it sounded great.


Closing off those channels would stop the outflow.


Full disclosure - I use the Okeechobee crossing on occasion.